Virgin birth? Analysis of 19:17-37
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Jafar,who wrote Qoran?
Where is your evidence?
Also the evidence that the book you mentioned was written before Qoran.
Thank you.
Peace. -
I doubt that 3isa spoke inthe cradle. Maryam said what she was told to say by the voice that she had made a vow not to speak and pointed to the baby.
They baby did not speak, but the baby was the thing to understand. You do not have to question a woman why she has a baby, the baby does not need any explanation. Any baby is born because God said be and it is.
When a baby is int he world, what is there to question? The baby itself is all the answer you need. If you need more and hear that he is going to be a great man or something like that is that going to change anything at all? No God is the Ruler of the arham, of the wombs and there is no questionning why anyody was born. That is what 3isa ibnu Maryam s saying in the cradle while not needing to say a single word, that is what Maryam points at and that is what the voice to told her keep mum wants us to know.
Motherhood is beyond human protocols, beyond human conventions, it is directly tied to God, it is not subservient to any convention. Subhannallah, subhannallah, subhannallah
Salaam
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Jafar,who wrote Qoran?
My version has an imprinted description in the back saying "Printed In China"..
And who wrote your Quran?Where is your evidence?
Also the evidence that the book you mentioned was written before Qoran.I wasn't around in middle east region during 500-700 AD, are you?
But why is it important that which book was written before which?
As your question was "Show me or state in the history of mankind a baby that speaks in the pram?!!!!"There you go another material which show a baby that speaks..
Feel free to read the copy of the book yourselves and make your own judgement...
https//www.amazon.com/Apocryphal-New-Testament-Collection-Translation/dp/0198261810
And contact / discuss with the author regarding the dating of the writing...Regarding "Whether it's true or merely a 'legend'.. i don't know... and frankly I don't see it as important issue anyway...
Whether the baby speaks his name was Jesus, Isa or Yashua or Kim Jong Im.. I don't know and I don't see it as important issue too....But most probably such story has been circulating around the society from that point in time until today... just like any other legend...
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You mean like the story you claim?And you ASSUME that Qoran has copied it!!!
With no evidence ,you are in a worst position than the one you imply for me.Also ,Qoran CLAIMS its Originator/Author /Inspirer...is the Lord of the universe. If you have evidence that someone else claims this, bring forth your facts.
Like other books have claims of human authors of course.Thank you brother.
Peace. -
I doubt that 3isa spoke inthe cradle. Maryam said what she was told to say by the voice that she had made a vow not to speak and pointed to the baby.
They baby did not speak, but the baby was the thing to understand. You do not have to question a woman why she has a baby, the baby does not need any explanation. Any baby is born because God said be and it is.
When a baby is int he world, what is there to question? The baby itself is all the answer you need. If you need more and hear that he is going to be a great man or something like that is that going to change anything at all? No God is the Ruler of the arham, of the wombs and there is no questionning why anyody was born. That is what 3isa ibnu Maryam s saying in the cradle while not needing to say a single word, that is what Maryam points at and that is what the voice to told her keep mum wants us to know.
Motherhood is beyond human protocols, beyond human conventions, it is directly tied to God, it is not subservient to any convention. Subhannallah, subhannallah, subhannallah
Salaam
I doubt it too. But then I doubt most of what the traditional rendition of Quran says, it is simply not credible.
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You mean like the story you claim?And you ASSUME that Qoran has copied it!!!
With no evidence ,you are in a worst position than the one you imply for me.The options are
- the Author of the Quran has copied it from Gospel of Infancy of Jesus Christ
- the author of Gospel of Infancy of Jesus Christ has coped it from the Quran
- Both author of the books has copied it from some other books.
Also ,Qoran CLAIMS its Originator/Author /Inspirer...is the Lord of the universe. If you have evidence that someone else claims this, bring forth your facts.
It think it's more of the Quran worshipper CLAIM that it was written/authored/inspired by God..
Here's the facts around scriptures, tablets, books claimed to be written by a God or Gods
Torah and Bible
The worshiper of the bible, the torah used to claim that each of those books were WRITTEN by God.
And then due to the 'pressure from critical thinking' of the people, they revised that those books were AUTHORED by God.
And then due to the 'pressure from critical thinking' of the people, they revised that again that those books were merely INSPIRED by God.
And then due to the 'pressure from critical thinking' of the people, lately they revised that again that those books were PARTLY INSPIRED by God.Sumerian Law
We also have scriptures containing law written on the stone tablet such as "Hammurabi Codex" which was believed by the citizens of Sumerians to be WRITTEN by God (Mardhuk) and handed over to their king (Hammurabi) for enforcement.
http//www.crystalinks.com/hammurabiabw2.jpg
Lord Mardhuk (right) handing over the codex to Hammurabi (left)Since Sumerian culture is no longer around today, nobody believed that those stone tablet was truly written by a deity.
Book Of The Dead
We also have scriptures containing instructions to be saved from grave torture which was MUST be believed by the citizens of Egypts to be written by God. Titled rw nw prt m hrwThe book was for sale at highly priced ($200,000 in today's dollar) but hey it's a small price to pay to have a book written by God in your personal collection right? And it's a MUST HAVE for those who really wishes salvation from eternal torture and a blissful afterlife.
http//www.britishmuseum.org/images/070610_ani.jpg
The weighting of the heart in the afterlife as found in the scroll written by God titled "rw nw prt m hrw"Since Ancient Egyptian culture is no longer around today, nobody believed that book was truly written by a deity.
Summary
Claiming that their book was written by some God is quite common in the middle eastern culture.
The motives varied but the objective is pretty much the same, to enforce people to BELIEVE in it without QUESTIONING on the truthfulness of it's content or let alone criticizing the logicality of it's content.As if it's written by God, then God will be ANGRY if you dare to question or criticize His book.
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It ought to be a virgin birth, I am not a sexist but in Semitic tradition you do not refer to the mother when you refer to a child but the father and so if Eysua had a father it would have been Eysua ibn .
You're correct, and recently they found a tomb in Jerusalem suburb of Talpiot with hebrew marking of "Ieshua Bar Yoseph" in it
The Jesus Tomb
https//youtu.be/7uuZ-C7nmj4The tomb also contains hebrew marking of "Maria", hebrew marking of "Iudah Bar Ieshua" and greek writing of "Mariamne" (oddly the later is in Greek inscription).
Nevertheless, to us it does matter extremely little whether Eysua was conceived supernaturally or not, that is not at all the important matter of his coming but his being as a living example of a pure person is.
Revelation of how this universe works has gone so far ahead today compared to 1400 years ago..
Born from a virgin is not considered as 'miracle' nowadays..
But one thing for sure... since Ieshua was a MALE, then definitely he has some genes inherited from Y chromosome... Which means he does have a human father. -
Well, if it is an egg miraculously fertilized in a woman by a supernatural manipulation of the subatomic and/or energy structure of the universe, then no other prerequisite has to be fulfilled. However, the miracle would have a difficulty working today since we have made methods of fertilizing female eggs artificially and probably no one would anyways have believed Miryem today due to that.
However, like I said, Eysua's birth is no big deal to us today and I would be more concerned about the teaching of his, of not being attracted to the worldly vanity and driven by the instinct of the body.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Peace jafar.
This is always going to be your excuse for not studying and checking Qoran yourself?,Quote
It think it's more of the Quran worshipper CLAIM that it was written/authored/inspired by God..I am saying the Qoran,(read it) claims that is is the words/authorship of the Lord of the universe!!!! Common, you can read it or do you want me to state where and what it says?
You are making "hay" with humans interpretation of Qoran ,and like those before you who tried it,you are going to have to check it and analyse it properly yourself?!!!
Your argument about religions may be valid at times ,but the one about Qoran looks bare and stale. In fact it shows a lot of ignorance about the book.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace jafar.
This is always going to be your excuse for not studying and checking Qoran yourself?,Quote
It think it's more of the Quran worshipper CLAIM that it was written/authored/inspired by God..I am saying the Qoran,(read it) claims that is is the words/authorship of the Lord of the universe!!!! Common, you can read it or do you want me to state where and what it says?
You are making "hay" with humans interpretation of Qoran ,and like those before you who tried it,you are going to have to check it and analyse it properly yourself?!!!
Your argument about religions may be valid at times ,but the one about Qoran looks bare and stale. In fact it shows a lot of ignorance about the book.
GOD bless you.
Peace.I think that Jafar is entitled to his opinion and I can understand that he does not believe Quran to be supernatural in origin due to how the writing presents itself and how primitive it sounds. In that I also share his opinion and if it was not because I found that someone simply inserted their own (flimsy) interpretation which had nothing to do with what was written above the innocent text, I would also not have anything to do with Quran these days and I would probably be studying a whole great deal more on the Biblical Gospels and other texts.
However, thanks to the patience I had with Quran I know more than I would have ever done without it and I can understand the linguistic problems with the Biblical phrasings such as "son of man" and "son of god" which sound like that because they are a little poorly translated and on top of that misinterpreted. No one is the biological/bodily offspring of God, but they can shape (tune in) their mind into being alike God's and so they can be advanced beings.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Of course jafar can believe what he wants and you can do the same.
I am saying,as far as my understanding of Qoran goes,I disagree with him
.And I disagree with what you are saying as well. The Arabic text is free form tempering and remains original.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Of course jafar can believe what he wants and you can do the same.
I am saying,as far as my understanding of Qoran goes,I disagree with him
.And I disagree with what you are saying as well. The Arabic text is free form tempering and remains original.
GOD bless.
Peace.We can agree to disagree then.
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I am saying the Qoran,(read it) claims that is is the words/authorship of the Lord of the universe!!!!
- Quran is not a 'living being' it doesn't say anything.
- It's the thought of the Quran's author that's being put into text. (with high probability of somebody add / remove / modify the text during the copying and compilation process)
Having said that.. Yes please.. where the Quran scribe (whomever that is) make a claim whose word and sentence it is that was being penned out?
If it's merely because of the introduction of "By The Name of " introduction in verses..
Then the "Syriac Gospel of the Infancy of the Saviour" also possess similar structure..
By the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, one God.And so does Hammurabi Codex, Book Of The Dead and hundreds of others "God's Books" lingering only in middle east..
Your argument about religions may be valid at times ,but the one about Qoran looks bare and stale. In fact it shows a lot of ignorance about the book.
Of course.. and I received similar response from the Bible worshiper, Torah worshiper or even Real Madrid fans when I said things which is not in line with their line of thought and they perceived it as an 'attack' to their idol..
I'm not surprised at all actually such response is inline with my expectation.... a normal human behavior...
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- Quran is not a 'living being' it doesn't say anything.
- It's the thought of the Quran's author that's being put into text. (with high probability of somebody add / remove / modify the text during the copying and compilation process)
It is normal way of referencing things. When somebody says, "Qur'aan says" he is simply stating what is mentioned therein.
And this way of referencing attributes the expression as the intellectual property of the author of the book and not its publisher.
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It is good we are having this conversation,jafar. May be I can pin you down further,when you say quote
Having said that.. Yes please.. where the Quran scribe (whomever that is) make a claim whose word and sentence it is that was being penned out?I say ,you open a new thread (as we may be off topic here) and we discuss the contents in detail to see how your "scribe" is a genius,beyond probability that he/she can write and claim such a text.
I will leave you with a taste
Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than God, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.
I repeat to you brother,please study it carefully[/u
The majority of those who "studied" it carefully have come to agree that
This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.Yes indeed brother jafar,I confirm for you that
This is the truth from your Lord; do not harbor any doubt.
Your choice.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
And so does Hammurabi Codex, Book Of The Dead and hundreds of others "God's Books" lingering only in middle east..
There is not a single place in the Hammurabi Codex, where it says about its divine origin, it is merely a political book of conduct and punishments. In fact, word 'god' in that culture could mean a person of upper social class, compared to the slave or the citizen. It does contain the age old eye for an eye tooth for tooth though. It was either claimed by Hammurabi himself that the codex is from God, which was quite a normal practice for early Babylonian and Egyptian kings, to make the people believe that not only is their power of political origin, but is also divinely established. It is not a problem of the book though, that someone claims it is his and others believe him. What matters, however, is the message of the book, not the person or the system which claims to "represent" the message. That is why Qur'an says we do not exalt the prophets.
Also on the punishments, you can refer to my posts in the abortion thread here, where I elaborated how the so called "social" punishments in the testaments/scriptures is a product of perverted minds of those who seek power. It depens on what you want to achieve, fascistic power or personal salvation, that is where the problem of translation comes from. Ancient priesthood is the system which was available since early shamans penetrated the tribes and could "predict" the changes in weather based on their observation of the stars. This system distorted probably all of the revelations that had happened. It is a duty of a man to find the truth him/herself.
Any ruler including Judeo-Persian priesthood would claim that "their" book is sacred and from God, and all of the previous books are automatically abrogated since the revelation of a new book. It is not the case, but it does not matter. What matters is the Qur'an claims there were revelations in every culture. One other fact which matters is that all testaments were, to some extent, perverted by mistranslation and clerical interpretations.
Qur'an is by far the most original and less distorted message of all. By original I do not mean that it contains some new wisdom which was not available previously, but it provides it in a new language, composition and narrative. By less distroted I don't mean it was not touched at all, there is a high tafsir influence and the problem of translation mainly because Arabic, especially its grammar, was just starting to develop, and it took a lot of meanings and concepts from other Semitic languages, namely aramaic and hebrew. That is why one arabic root may have up to 10 or more meanings. That also makes me doubt it was originally written in Arabic, but it matters not to me.
But I don't think it was distorted by artificially adding verses, or taking some away. Because if it was severely copied they WOULD include the stoning to death verse by any means. There is no chance they would not. They did not. They could not mistranslate it, since the Authors took care of it, either the text was preserved by highly righteous people until most of the continent could recite the Qur'an in its original form, or that is yet another miracle surrounding this book. Falsification/distortion of the text written with ink is easier when it is copied on the piece of leather rather than carved on the stone, but in the end any message can be copied/distorted.
Also for anyone interested in "previous books" take a look at Epic of Gilgamesh, the earliest writing ever recovered, about 11 tablets were saved. That being said, they pretty much all contained the same message, but people, namely kings and the priesthood obviously distorted the message to represent something trivial, than that it really is.
Now, virgin birth has nothing to do in vitro fertilisation, which is not "virgin" since the sperm is clearly taken from a man. A "virgin birth" is in fact found in biology among some species, the phonemenon is called parthenogenesis. It could be well possible that God has used His own creation to make miracles on humans, which are naturally not capable of certain phenomenons.
Prophet Yeshua/Jesus had zakat enjoined upon him by God in 1931. The zakat is purity. Yeshua was never married. He was pios during his life. I believe his extraordinarity birth perfectly fits his extraordinary life.