Virgin birth? Analysis of 19:17-37
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1917-18 Relate/mention in the book Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east. She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our inspiration/revelation/vitality to her, and he took on the shape of a human in all similarity. She said, ?Surely, I seek refuge in/with the Almighty/Originator that you may be righteous.?
So basically God sent Mary a being that, for all Mary can know, was a human. She was afraid since she has never been close to a man before and/or he approached her in a way she was not used to or feared. Clearly a man (for what she knows) is approaching her and she is worried.
1919 He (the human "ruh" said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son."
Thus we can see the "ruh" who for all intents and purposes on Earth was a human was sent by God to grant Mary a son.
1920-21 She said, "How can I have a son when no human has touched me, nor do I desire such?" He said, "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. We shall make him a sign for the people and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained."
The "we" I think refers to God and the "ruh." The "ruh" who appears as a human is only carrying out what God has willed. This concept of God ordaining something, upon which it starts happening will appear a later again.
1922-23 So she was pregnant with him, and she went to deliver in a far place. The birth pains came to her, by the trunk of a palm tree. She said, "I wish I had died before this, and became totally forgotten!"
This is before Isa was born.
1924 But then he called to her from beneath her "Do not be sad, your Lord has made below you a stream."
The last "he" that was talking and was present with her was the human-shaped "ruh." Isa is not born yet. This is obvious since she has pains from the pregnancy/labor. Also note the language "your Lord" - this was the messenger/the one who was sent i.e. the "ruh."
1925-26 "And shake the trunk of this palm tree, it will cause ripe dates to fall upon you. So eat and drink and be happy. If you see any human being, then say, 'I have declared a fast for the Gracious, and I will not talk today to any of the people.'"
Dates help with the pain. Again, Isa isn't born yet and the messenger/the "ruh" that was sent is talking.
Now we fast forward. The child has has been delivered. Not every detail has to be related in The Reading.
1927-28 Then she came to her people carrying him. They said, "O Mary, you have come with something totally unexpected!" So she pointed to him. "O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!"
She was not married so the people were surprised she had a child. In fact, they imply that she committed lewdness by claiming her parents were good - not bad and promiscuous. What they do not know is that the child was a sign/blessing from God who sent his inspiration/revelation/vitality to her in the form of a human-being. "Him" can be clearly seen as Isa because of the following verses.
1929 So she pointed to him. They said "How can we KLM with/to someone who is a SBY in a/the MHD?"
KLM = speak, command, express, word, agreement
SBY = inclined, yearn, youthful, young, child
MHD = To make a place or thing plain or even or smooth, to prepare or establish, to gain or earn, seek to gain, to work for oneself, to spread or be spread (namely a bed).1930-33 He said, "I am God's servant, He has given me the book and made me a prophet." He made me blessed wherever I am/may be, and He enjoined me with the 'salat' and the 'zakat' as long as I am alive. And He has made me kind to my mother, and has not made me haughty, unblessed. Peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am resurrected alive."
Resurrected alive refers to the hereafter like many other verses in The Reading. The following verses will talk about how people invent myths and fiction around this story, confirms that Jesus is not God's son and talks about the nature of creation that I had briefly mentioned earlier when commenting on 1920-21. More on this in 1935
1934 Such was Jesus, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of the matter in which they doubt.
It is important to note the use here and the frequent use throught The Reading of "son of Mary" which is to emphasize that Jesus is the son of Mary and not the son of God. It is a counterargument against Christians who claim otherwise. It does not mean that Jesus had some pagan mythology-type of birth.
1935 God was never to take a son, be He glorified. If He decrees a matter, then He simply says to it "Be," and it is.
This first part of the verse confirms that Jesus is no the son of God. The previous verse 1921 is relevant here. The second important thing to note is the second part of this verse "If He decrees a matter, then He simply says to it 'Be,' and it is." "Is" as opposed to "becomes" is very interesting. Shabbir Ahmed translates this as follows, which I think is a good rendering/interpretration of the literal Arabic which is not always conveyed well in literal translations "When He decrees a thing, it starts happening."
1936-37 And (Jesus said), "Indeed, God is my Lord and your Lord, so serve Him. This is the straight path." Yet, the sects disputed between themselves. Woe, then, unto all who deny the truth when that awesome day/time will appear!
People follow hearsay and pagan mythology and ironically even so-called Muslims and people who follow "Quran alone Islam" blindly accept the pagan "immaculate conception" myth. Mary was sent divine inspiration in the form of a human-being with whom she conceived a child.
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Here are the contradictions according to your analysis
1- A stranger to meet Mary for what purpose?
2- Are you saying the human and Mary produced the child together?
3- GOD allowed her and the human to break His command/instruction. i.e commit Zina/Fahisha? Or did they fulfil a contract/got married first?
4- Why "Isa beni Meryam" and not "beni the stranger"?
5-I am not understanding your take on this?GOD bless.
Peace. -
Unprecedented and unique asexual creation- sort of Parthenogenesis- Virgin Birth of a human being the elevated Messenger Easa , the son of Maryam the truthful.
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Introduction What is a Narrative?
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Orientation of the Episode
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Incidental details relevant to the thesis of episode
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Communication of information to adult Maryam; to her perception unusual and exception to rule.
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The resolution, conclusion, sum up of the message
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Updates about the Narrative
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Concluding comment
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Additional information about Virgin birth
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Those that contradict and theorize against Virgin Birth are liars and are condemned
VIRGIN BIRTH
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I think the Qur'an is very ler on this. It does not explain nor tell how Marym got pregnant. It was between God and her. We do not need to know, not at all. She did not say. She did not explain. She was told by the voice to not speak about it. God tells us what we need to know. We do not need to know any more. Privacy is privacy and in Sura Nur and other Qur'an passages we categoric injunctions to respect intimacy and privacy. It is not for anybody to go about prying on people private life.
Virgin birth? what do we care? As per the words of God, He created Maryam's son the sme way He created and creates all other human beings, he employs the word khalaqa in all cases. All new life is created kh-l-q by God, as He creates everything. We are not going to know how Maryam's son was conceived. No amount of research thousands of years after is going to give us that knowledge. We won't know and that it itself is also a sign.
The Qur'an says that Maryam and her son are a sign.
Which sign? Peole have clung to the virgin birth as the most conveniente sign they would like to receive. But that cannot be nd it is not said by God. No emphasis at all in any virginity or non virginity. Quite the opposite, very deliberately we are not told. And no matter how much we wring the Qur'an to get any hint at it, we don't know. So, we do not need to know. Let us get on with what else, and there is much, is to be got from the Maryam and 3isa aya.
Salaam
Salaam -
This is what GOD told us about Meriem s view of the pregnancy
1920
She said, "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me; I have never been unchaste."1921
He said, "Thus said your Lord, `It is easy for Me. We will render him a sign for the people, and mercy from us. This is a predestined matter.'i.e That she was surprised ,had no partner/husband at that time, was righteous and accepted GOD s plan.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
What a disrespectful and atrocious thing you are proposing.
I could literally pick apart each and every ignorant premise you have made regarding this.If you guys are believers refrain from even entertaining this madness
More emotion and bias from you. I am starting to see a pattern. Pick apart what you like - but stop whining around biasedly like you do so often.
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More emotion and bias from you. I am starting to see a pattern. Pick apart what you like - but stop whining around biasedly like you do so often.
There is no bias or emotional outburst here. It's pretty clear you are in full conjecture mode. And it is not a trivial matter but rather a grave and gross thing which you are insinuating.
We know, that you know, you have no evidence and argument, when you choose to respond to me rather than responding to good logic and the rest.
Everyone can see the patterns you're making for yourself. From making assumptions about me solely based on the color of my skin, to suggesting an enormity about Maryam, without ANY evidence.
Bring forth four witnesses for your accusations. NEVER will you accomplish this.
Therefore, YOU are a LIAR. One certainly worthy of the chastisement prescribed.
The whole community should be made aware of your false accusations, and ill and perverse conscience.
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There is no bias or emotional outburst here. It's pretty clear you are in full conjecture mode. And it is not a trivial matter but rather a grave and gross thing which you are insinuating.
We know, that you know, you have no evidence and argument, when you choose to respond to me rather than responding to good logic and the rest.
Everyone can see the patterns you're making for yourself. From making assumptions about me solely based on the color of my skin, to suggesting an enormity about Maryam, without ANY evidence.
Bring forth four witnesses for your accusations. NEVER will you accomplish this.
Therefore, YOU are a LIAR. One certainly worthy of the chastisement prescribed.
The whole community should be made aware of your false accusations, and ill and perverse conscience.
I will ignore you and your judgements. You are arrogant as always, intolerant and have a closed, brainwashed mind. You suffer from serious cognitive dissonance. Unlike you, I care about the truth - if someone can prove using the verses that I am wrong, I will accept the truth. You however, are seriously brainwashed and have a rigid mindset just like the followers of organized religions.
To pass judgement like that and, being aggressive as you are so many times, I can see what a sad person you are. You are not even following what you claim to uphold.
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Peace good_logic,
Since you are one of two (with huruf) here that responded in a constructive way, let us have a discussion.
Here are the contradictions according to your analysis
1- A stranger to meet Mary for what purpose?1919
2- Are you saying the human and Mary produced the child together?
The "ruh" which was in the form of a human. Thus it seems.
3- GOD allowed her and the human to break His command/instruction. i.e commit Zina/Fahisha? Or did they fulfil a contract/got married first?
Does it specify? In either case, was Mary bound to the rules of the Quran? Is God's will bound to anything? What about his "ruh" (inspiration/revelation)? This is what you need to clarify and understand first.
4- Why "Isa beni Meryam" and not "beni the stranger"?
First, re-read my post. Also, does calling him "Isa bin Maryam" contradict being produced through Maryam and God's "ruh" which was in the shape of a human? Also, you realize that many things are a test and can be distorted if one does not use an unbiased mindset, right? See 37 and the classical interpretations of 434, 535 and many others.
5-I am not understanding your take on this?
Perhaps this is the first question you should ask and the first issue we need to clarify.
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A liar is a person who intentionally deceives which I am sure progressive1993 is not doing. Please sure accurate words. In case he is wrong, then state why he is wrong and meet him constructively. It is important to have an intelligent dialog showing your superiority to make clear you are intelligent and not a fool.
Be well
Qarael Amenuel -
Hmm, given how all this is said by the quran to represent a sign, and how much emphasis is put upon the chastity of Mariam, I think the whole thing is pretty clear, isn't it? And the fact that Isa started to be called son of god is also indicative of a virgin birth I'd say...
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Hmm, given how all this is said by the quran to represent a sign, and how much emphasis is put upon the chastity of Mariam, I think the whole thing is pretty clear, isn't it? And the fact that Isa started to be called son of god is also indicative of a virgin birth I'd say...
Ahsanat farjaha is not about chastity but about empowerment. Chastity is indicated by HafaDHa farj (+possessive pronoun). Chastity of course is supposed to her because she was chosen and purifed by God for her mission, but it is not made any deal out of it. Some words of the root H-S-n in the Qur'an are of those that have been turned into something else through interpretation, and by doing so turning many passages into problems where they should nto be.
Nowhere in the Qur'an is 3isa called son of God by God or his prophets, and 3isa himself denies it and says that he is just a man. He is not the Jesus of the gospels, but as the Qur'an also explains to us, that is a confusion, it has been made to appear so, but they go by nothing but conjecture, they do not know.
It is funny how so many quranists reject hadith but aaaaaaaat the same time incorporate all the books of the Bible into the Qur'an not by doing so deliberately but by just taking hem from granted without going into any analisys or real careful study. That is we close the windows to the thief, but then we open to him wide the front door.
Look carefully at the life of 3isa and his mother in the Qur'an an int he gospels, nothing in common.
Salaam
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Ahsanat farjaha is not about chastity but about empowerment. Chastity is indicated by HafaDHa farj (+possessive pronoun). Chastity of course is supposed to her because she was chosen and purifed by God for her mission, but it is not made any deal out of it. Some words of the root H-S-n in the Qur'an are of those that have been turned into something else through interpretation, and by doing so turning many passages into problems where they should nto be.
Nowhere in the Qur'an is 3isa called son of God by God or his prophets, and 3isa himself denies it and says that he is just a man. He is not the Jesus of the gospels, but as the Qur'an also explains to us, that is a confusion, it has been made to appear so, but they go by nothing but conjecture, they do not know.
It is funny how so many quranists reject hadith but aaaaaaaat the same time incorporate all the books of the Bible into the Qur'an not by doing so deliberately but by just taking hem from granted without going into any analisys or real careful study. That is we close the windows to the thief, but then we open to him wide the front door.
Look carefully at the life of 3isa and his mother in the Qur'an an int he gospels, nothing in common.
Salaam
Yeah but it seems like the whole point of this birth and all was for it to be a sign I guess, like something special, unheard of. I said they started to call him son of god, they as in the ''Christians'', not god obviously rotfl Would people just say such utter nonsense out of the blue?... It just so happens that we find not in the quran any mention of his father, or her marraige, all this looks like extrapolation to me, and I looked carefully for the life of isa and his mother from a quranic perspective, trust me on that one .
And notice how in my message I appear to not be sure, that's because I was never able to be certain on this issue of a virgin birth.
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Virginity does no appear int he Qur'an but it does appear in some of the most porpular ancient religions. A virgin birth was one of the tenets of such rligions, mitraism which was very, very popular at the times of the romans, was one of them, it seems. So it is one of the popular misteries in religion. But in the Qur'an it means absolutely nothing.
As to the aya, many are saying it here, 3isa "did not have a father" and many, millions today, "do not have a father". In a way you can say, those children without a known father, they have God as a father because God always takes care of all his creatures and of the single mothers.
We do not need to know whether Maryam was a virgin, was secretely married under strange circumstances which prevented her from making it public... we do not know zilch, nothing at all, and God has kept that for Him. He empowered Maryam and she carried out her mission as the mother of a fatherless child. It does not matter whether she was virgin, married or whatever the important fact is that for society, for all the world she was a single mother.
The aya? Have a try? A virgin would be an aya of what? That God is allpowerful? Old news. And besides that was important for anybody? How? Neither Maryam nor anybody in her place said this is a sign for you that I am a virgin and I have given birth? I guess you can hear the laughs from where we are that she or anybbody else who said that may have got. I means for the people then and there the only sign they could get ws that she was a women of loose morals, at leas of ONE loose moral which resulted in her getting pregnant.
A sign for later people when the Qur'an would be revealed? Again, a sign of what? That God can do whatever He wants and keep it secret or shrouded in mistery forever? Who doubts or has doubted that?
Salaam
Salaam
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The question here is not whether or not we care about Maryam's virginity. The issue is that god says in the quran that isa is (of course) not his son and at the same time doesn not talk about isa's father. Plus the fact that maryam questionned about how she's going to have a child without being touched by any man, and so on...
We are then left with sooo many ambiguities with each one of them seemingly poiting to a virgin birth. Would god want to mislead us into thinking about a virgin birth ???
If you put all these together, it becomes kinda difficult to understand something other than that, I'm not at all saying that I care or not about the issue, I'm just presenting the clues that's it. -
I do not see how anything points at all to a virgin birth. I just do not see it. But I see that we have all been indoctrinated into thinking it a virgin virth and therefore we tend to insert everything we read into that set up. We are nto unconditioned. If we get rid of tha preconception I honestly cannot see that anything points more to a virgin than to any other possibility.
But like what you yourself admit, we are left in darkness about how the conception came to happen, which corroborates the fact that that is of no importance whatsoever nor serve us for any purposed. Therefore it is of no consequence and a waste for us, because the lesson is not there.
Salaam
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It's true that god didn't clearly tell us about whether or not a father is at play in this conception or not but I wonder what are the implications of this silence, maybe we are required to further investigate the issue of the origins of mankind, life and creation as a whole as we are encouraged to do per 2940 ''Travel through the land and observe how He began creation'', hence the similarity between Adam and Isa in 359...
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I do not see how anything points at all to a virgin birth. I just do not see it. But I see that we have all been indoctrinated into thinking it a virgin virth and therefore we tend to insert everything we read into that set up. We are nto unconditioned. If we get rid of tha preconception I honestly cannot see that anything points more to a virgin than to any other possibility.
But like what you yourself admit, we are left in darkness about how the conception came to happen, which corroborates the fact that that is of no importance whatsoever nor serve us for any purposed. Therefore it is of no consequence and a waste for us, because the lesson is not there.
Salaam
Peace huruf,
I like how your true thoughts are being brought forth. We do not need to believe what even 99.99999% of people on earth believe and even what 99.99999% of people on this forum believe. If it is true as per The Quran and God's signs in nature and elsewhere, it is to be accepted. Yet people get mad that their idol (pre-conceived idea that they group up with and got indoctrinated with) is getting shattered. Cognitive dissonance can be a sad thing.