Are the people here really free minded?
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Why do the people at free minds seem to be so confident that the Quran only approach is definitely the correct way of thinking? Has it occurred to you that the Quran itself might have been compromised?
I myself was raised a traditional sunni muslim. I wasn't until several years ago that I decided that I should do my own research on Islam instead of relying on the sheikhs as there was so many conflicting arguments. I started reading the sunnah, and while I found a lot of it irrational of little significance, I initially kept reading in hopes that there would be some wisdom that would make it worthwhile. Failing at that, I looked into the background info on the hadith collections and its authors and like many of you, I found the arguments against the hadith compelling.
It was then that I turned to the Quran and the Quran only forums such as free minds. I read through a lot of posts and discussions, and even gave my own feedback in some discussions; but eventually it started to feel like even this is a facade. It seems to me like the people on these forums are grasping at straws, because Quran is their last line of defense in saying that Islam is still the only remaining authentic religion.
Just like with the hadith, I have read the Quran carefully. I gave it the benefit of the doubt. I hoped that there was some wisdom to be found that would make it all worthwhile. But no. The Quran does not seem to be anything special, and I don't think that if God wanted to send a message to mankind, this would be what he left us with.
Most of the Quran is spent praising God himself and reminding you of his power, and threatening you with the punishment you will receive if you don't believe it and follow it. There is no chronological order of events, and there is so much repetition that it is enough to make the reader lose track. The rest is some vague references to some things that might have happened, or some things that might happen in future. It is these that people are so eager to connect to real occurrences and claim that the Quran predicted it. And of course there are the references to things that are observed in nature that are labeled as scientific miracles.
When any of the things in the Quran are proven wrong, it is the go to response that it is "an incorrect translation" or it "has a deeper meaning that we don't understand because we have not been enlightened by God".
I don't know if Muhammad wrote the Quran, or some other people wrote it after his death and spread it around using his name as an influence; but to me the Quran doesn't seem to be anything of a divine nature. It seems like a book written by men while trying to sound mystical and giving a false sense of enlightenment.
I don't know why the people here feel the need to keep defending the Quran. If it is all that it claims to be, its own content should be enough proof of what it's worth.
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Peace onceler.
Welcome to the forum.
Allow me to go through some points in your posts ,in no particular order,your quotes are in green
1-because Quran is their last line of defense in saying that Islam is still the only remaining authentic religion.Islam is not a religion,it is a state of mind
http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/simple-and-universal-message/2-The Quran does not seem to be anything special, and I don't think that if God wanted to send a message to mankind, this would be what he left us with.
So you believe in GOD? What is your evidence?How would we know if GOD does not communicate with/send a message to us?And where is this message?
If you do not believe in GOD,what is your take on us ,who we are,where we live and the universe around us?3-When any of the things in the Quran are proven wrong, it is the go to response that it is "an incorrect translation" or it "has a deeper meaning that we don't understand because we have not been enlightened by God".
Bring to the discussion what you found wrong in the Qoran,let us at least have an attempt at seeing and refuting the proof/ evidence that you claim of the "wrong things" in the Qoran.4-I don't know if Muhammad wrote the Quran, or some other people wrote it after his death and spread it around using his name as an influence; but to me the Quran doesn't seem to be anything of a divine nature. It seems like a book written by men while trying to sound mystical and giving a false sense of enlightenment.
I take it there is no evidence/proof for what you are saying here. Who wrote Qoran then? and why? Surely the author/s need to be found if there is no claim and evidence for it? Or the contents need to be studied and analysed,with complete neutrality and fairness,to find out what this book is claiming and why?
Thank you and GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Good Logic
1 - As you wish.
2 - I am open to the possibility that God exists, but I don't claim to have evidence of it. I just don't believe that an almighty God would choose to communicate with mankind in such a mediocre fashion.
3 - For one thing let's take a look at the tale of Dhul-Qarnayn in chapter 18. It says he found the place of the setting sun - a muddy spring. And the place of the rising of the sun - where people had no shelter against it. It's obvious that this was written with the concept that the earth was flat, and he had actually traveled to the ends of the earth.
It has been argued that he saw it setting on a muddy spring on the horizon; but if that is so what is the significance of this? Why was it worth putting in the Quran if it is just his perception? Anyone can see the sun setting on the horizon without having the need to travel anywhere.
And then he goes on to trap Gog and Magog by building a wall between 2 mountains using iron and copper. So where is this wall now? How come no one has seen a giant steel wall built between 2 mountains, with people travelling all over the world with ease, and satellites taking pictures of the entire earth?
4 - You're right I have no evidence of who wrote it. But I don't believe a divine book would be so poorly written. -
Greetings and peace, all group
Addressing comment 3, is there any reason why a person can't travel until the sun sets and then stop at that location? There are parts of the world with minimal vegetation and the sun beats down on whoever is there--there is no natural shelter and minimal resources for building shelter.
Romans sometimes walled in entire towns (circumvallation) that they were sieging/attacking, and it would stand to reason that in a relatively narrow location such as the pass at Thermopylae (15 meters wide) that an area could be relatively easily walled off. Please consider the following article, and research further if it is of importance to you.
https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_of_Alexander
ALLAH knows best.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi
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That's your opinion and how you view it. Not everyone views the Qur'an the same way you do.
And that "muddy water" verse, I don't think it's the first time I've seen that verse being used to (somehow) "show" that the Qur'an claims the earth is flat..
Look up the word "wajada". Even the popular Sahih International translation wrote in brackets.Also being "free-minded" shouldn't mean that you leave all that you believe in and do whatever you want.
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Peace onceler.
Thank you for your reply.
1- It is not what I wish. According to GOD s message,and of course my understanding,Islam has been a way of life (GOD s one and only system)since man walked this earth. There has only been "Islam" as far as GOD instructed.All religions are man made.2-Mediocre fashion? You mean your study and research of Qoran concludes that. Mine concludes that Qoran could have only been from one source,The Creator of us and this universe.
3- Qoran gives you a clear picture of the sun ,the moon,the stars,earth...i.e that they are all independent from each other,each going around in their own orbits. Are you telling me it also says that the sun sets on earth? You mean it tells you the guy saw the sun set in murky water? I saw the sun set in the sea and a mountain.Many people see the sun set in different locations, like you said,a beautiful sight. GOD s creation is amazing.Yes,you already knew the answer. So what is the problem?
As for walls that are not found,or not found yet,well,they keep looking or have they looked all over and proved no wall existed? Or have they found steel intact(Not rusted or disappeared completely) from thousands of years ago elsewhere?4-Again,its Arabic structure has amazed those who know Arabic very well. In your opinion it is poorly written? Give examples please.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace,
... an almighty God would choose to communicate with mankind in such a mediocre fashion.
I hope you realise the word "signs" (Arabic ayatin) is used for verses/signs in Quran and external to it, therefore the Quranic concept of God communicating to man is not restricted to what is found in Quran only. Famous example 4153. Toshihiko Izutsu has did an analysis of this subject (chapter 6).
3 - For one thing let's take a look at the tale of Dhul-Qarnayn in chapter 18. It says he found the place of the setting sun - a muddy spring. And the place of the rising of the sun - where people had no shelter against it.
It is a stone cold fact the form "maghrib/mashriq" can mean the time or place of sunset/sunrise. See end of article here for discussion.
As a side note I just read this, not sure if the info about "hatta" is true or not but corpus says idha is a time adverb, so seems plausible. Perhaps Mazhar or someone else can take a look at it.It's obvious that this was written with the concept that the earth was flat, and he had actually traveled to the ends of the earth.
That is one possible interpretation if you don't consider other verses. From my research there is no knockout blow to prove it one way or the other but the evidence is certainly not for a flat earth.
It has been argued that he saw it setting on a muddy spring on the horizon; but if that is so what is the significance of this? Why was it worth putting in the Quran if it is just his perception? Anyone can see the sun setting on the horizon without having the need to travel anywhere.
It was clearly his perception according to the Arabic which literally says "he perceived/found it" (wajadaha).
And then he goes on to trap Gog and Magog by building a wall between 2 mountains using iron and copper. So where is this wall now? How come no one has seen a giant steel wall built between 2 mountains, with people travelling all over the world with ease, and satellites taking pictures of the entire earth?
Not necessarily concurring with your translation but had to point out the obvious absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
4 - You're right I have no evidence of who wrote it. But I don't believe a divine book would be so poorly written.
Determining whether a book is poorly written or not is somewhat subjective. Here is an interesting take, Quran and probability.
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Oh yeah, "wajadaha", as it says in the verse.
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Has it occurred to you that the Quran itself might have been compromised?
How comprised?
Here are manuscripts dated to time of revelation, besides initials not counted as separate verse show discrepancy with today's?Birmingham manuscript
https//s1.postimg.org/9ry14ejjq7/Birmingham_Quran_ch19v91-ch20v13.jpgSana manuscript
https//s1.postimg.org/8gz7gnsssv/Sana_Qur_an_ch19v90-ch20v40.jpgMA VI 165 manuscript
https//s1.postimg.org/1k7kzrztkv/MA_VI_165_Quran_ch19v97-ch20v16.jpg -
Maybe they try to be Pure Minded? Pure Quran Islam, is a universal doctrine, like all monotheism, but has the original revelation still. And ignore the hypocritical Bukhari, or the facistic Tirmidhi, that fails textual analysis. And so one tries to dicuss what Islam really is. Some more successful than others
Peace.
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I was raised a Muslim so I believe I have a bias to the Quran over other scriptures. I don?t see it as a bad thing it just makes it more of my focus.
Way of thinking is not based on ?Quran-Only? approach. I believe a lot of the way people think is subject to knowledge, environment, bias etc.
Let?s say for arguments sake that yes the Quran might have been compromised. So what? A truth seeker is one who is honest with themselves right? But let?s not be fools. There are things we don?t know/understand and even things we misinterpret. Does that mean we must reject it or think it falsehood?
?It seems to me like the people on these forums are grasping at straws, because Quran is their last line of defense in saying that Islam is still the only remaining authentic religion.?
Really? I believe other religions are authentic, based on the history that prophets came with a message/scripture. And personally thinking of the Quran as a book of science or a book of predictions is a waste of time.
You might think the way it?s written is poorly but if you study the historical context of Arabs you would realise the way it?s written isn?t poorly at all. I do recommend reading Toshihiko Izutsu - God and Man in The Quran. It may give you an appreciation of the Quranic style or at least an understanding of it, whether you choose to believe it's authentic, divine or not.
Peace
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right at the beginning of the thread <i asked the OP whether he read the Qur'an original or whether he read translations. He has not answered. So I really do not know on what he bases anything he says.
I hope now he will answer that, because otherwise it is all banging theories.
salaam
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Why do the people at free minds seem to be so confident that the Quran only approach is definitely the correct way of thinking? Has it occurred to you that the Quran itself might have been compromised?
You mean altered with later interpolations ?
That cannot be ruled out. I have some clue where it occurred in Qur'an.I myself was raised a traditional sunni muslim. I wasn't until several years ago that I decided that I should do my own research on Islam instead of relying on the sheikhs as there was so many conflicting arguments. I started reading the sunnah, and while I found a lot of it irrational of little significance, I initially kept reading in hopes that there would be some wisdom that would make it worthwhile. Failing at that, I looked into the background info on the hadith collections and its authors and like many of you, I found the arguments against the hadith compelling.
Ok.
It was then that I turned to the Quran and the Quran only forums such as free minds. I read through a lot of posts and discussions, and even gave my own feedback in some discussions; but eventually it started to feel like even this is a facade. It seems to me like the people on these forums are grasping at straws, because Quran is their last line of defense in saying that Islam is still the only remaining authentic religion.
Indeed, most Qur'an alone people consider that having rejected hadiths is the biggest achievement of their life.
But they still understand Qur'an the same way as in traditional Islam, e.g. a text dictated by God to Muhammad, and so on.
Or at least the divergences with traditional Islam are not so important as they think.Just like with the hadith, I have read the Quran carefully. I gave it the benefit of the doubt. I hoped that there was some wisdom to be found that would make it all worthwhile. But no. The Quran does not seem to be anything special, and I don't think that if God wanted to send a message to mankind, this would be what he left us with.
I disagree here. There is a lot of wisdom in Qur'an. But it is not the kind of wisdom most muslims or Qur'an alone people want to hear and are interested in.
Most of the Quran is spent praising God himself and reminding you of his power, and threatening you with the punishment you will receive if you don't believe it and follow it.
Disagree here but let's say it's not the goal of this discussion.
There is no chronological order of events, and there is so much repetition that it is enough to make the reader lose track. The rest is some vague references to some things that might have happened, or some things that might happen in future. It is these that people are so eager to connect to real occurrences and claim that the Quran predicted it. And of course there are the references to things that are observed in nature that are labeled as scientific miracles.
Yes, I agree this is a problem, because this participates to the kind of magic people want to hear.
But this is not what Qur'an tries to say.When any of the things in the Quran are proven wrong, it is the go to response that it is "an incorrect translation" or it "has a deeper meaning that we don't understand because we have not been enlightened by God".
Yes, I agree. Translation is not the point. Translation comes from interpretation first. If interpretation is erroneous, translation will not save you.
Few times here I had the misfortune to quote another translation than FM translation (just because it was easier for me), and people felt on me with short arms, whereas the translation was really not the point.
That said, critics of Qur'an as well as traditional muslims and Qur'an alone people share a common point, despite their fierce divergences they absolutely deny that Qur'an can contain a lot of metaphors, plays of words, assonances, sentences with dual meaning, etc.
Therefore a large part of Qur'an lies beyond their understanding. -
Peace Anoushirvan.
I know we had the odd discussions here,but as far as I have understood you,you are no nearer understanding Qoran ,than all these types you mention in your post.
You say,quote
Indeed, most Qur'an alone people consider that having rejected hadiths is the biggest achievement of their life.
But they still understand Qur'an the same way as in traditional Islam, e.g. a text dictated by God to Muhammad, and so on.
Or at least the divergences with traditional Islam are not so important as they think.I would say,far from it,there is a huge difference between the traditional way and the way I understand Qoran. And When I say "I" I do not mean Qoran Alone people or any other group,I mean me personally.
Please let us have your understanding ,better still,translate Qoran for all these "ignorant "folks. I think it is a duty ,according to Qoran,to pass on the true message?
All you need to do is bring your "Burhan" if you understand better. It is that easy,is it not?
I really appreciate your take on things with evidence of your research/findings. It will be interesting,hopefully?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
It was clearly his perception according to the Arabic which literally says "he perceived/found it" (wajadaha).
That's not true Wakas. Even today wajadaha doesn't mean perceived. Plenty of better words to convey "perceived" in the Quran.
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wjd#(188611)
Just look at the usage in the quran.
Let me reverse the argument.
What arabic would you use in 1886 if you did want to convey that he traveled a long road and then what he found was the actual sun taking a dip in an actual lake.
You'd also have to account for 1890 and 1893 where again wajada is used consistently in the literal sense.Can you construct the sentence for me in classical arabic consistent with the quran.
You can try different examples.
"I walked down the road from my house and found a shop on fire"
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That's not true Wakas. Even today wajadaha doesn't mean perceived.
According to classical arabic dictionaries it can
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmhttp//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=wjd#(188611)
Just look at the usage in the quran.
Out of 106 occurrences how many cannot mean to perceive?
Let me reverse the argument.
What arabic would you use in 1886 if you did want to convey that he traveled a long road and then what he found was the actual sun taking a dip in an actual lake.
You'd also have to account for 1890 and 1893 where again wajada is used consistently in the literal sense.Can you construct the sentence for me in classical arabic consistent with the quran.
You can try different examples.
"I walked down the road from my house and found a shop on fire"
I'm not sure about the alternative construction aspect, but 1890 weakens not strengthens your take on it, quote
...and he found/perceived/experienced it rising* on/over/upon a community...
*imperfect tense, an action in the process of being done.- the sun obviously cannot rise on a community from underneath them, thus it MUST have risen from somewhere else and then appeared to be going over them, e.g. up to midday, and to determine if something is overhead one would usually be near/at that location not at another remote location
- the above does not happen in an instant, it takes hours
Not that I think "wajadaha" is a big deal. I mainly pointed wajadaha out as some claim that this verse is Quran is making a direct statement of fact when it's clearly telling it from his perspective.
No-one can dispute the noun of time and no-one can dispute that it's being told from his perspective.
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You have to be careful with Arabic to English dictionaries, because they usually contain synonyms for it's each english meaning which have very little to do with the arabic.
"Perceive" is synonym of "Find" in english only. You will not find arabic words like hasiba or tasawar etc as synonyms for wajada.
Wajada has very distinct meaning which is "to look for something and then find it".
Also the English perceive's primary meaning is "to understand" and literally "to receive, collect". Nothing to do with wajada.
I'm not sure about the alternative construction aspect
Bro, you must do this. It's the only way to overcome your confirmation bias. Also it means your argument isn't falsifiable which means no amount evidence anyone provides will shift your position.
No-one can dispute the noun of time and no-one can dispute that it's being told from his perspective.
You are wrong on the first one but I'll come back to that another time. The second one - correct - it's his perspective.
Just because a story is told from the protagonist point of view doesn't make everything he sees or experiences an illusion.
If I write (A) "John went to a bar and saw Peter in the corner having a beer".
That doesn't mean Peter isn't real or that John imagined the whole thing just because it's told from John's perspective .... unless I say so with words
E.g (B) "John went to a bar and thought he saw Peter in the corner having a beer".
Have a look at the choice of words for 2744 where Sheba thinks the solid floor is water.
I could make the first sentence even stronger
(C) "John went to a bar and found Peter in the corner having a beer"
No way would we translate the above (C) to (B). Then why do it in Arabic.
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Salaam bro,
Crisis of faith! I have been there and I am sure many here have had doubts regarding the Quran. For the longest time, I was looking for that one smoking gun, a magic bullet which would convince me that the Quran was indeed sent down from the Lord of the Worlds. I never did find it but my faith was strenghtned by God's favor and now I am a 100% sure that this book is indeed from God. So what to do? I could give you countless scientific facts mentioned in the Quran but you can look them up yourself if you need to. As the Quran states that God could send a sign to which our necks would be humbled if He choose to do so. The bottom line is that God has said that He guides who He wills and if He decides to misguide there is none to guide. So where does that leave us? Well, we could start by taking a humble inventory of our moral failings. Asking God for forgiveness and Hi guidance is I think imperative. Since He does not need us, we need Him. You can also start by doing good deeds such as feeding poor, being kind to your parents, being grateful for the things you have been given in this life. Keeping yourself away from backbiting, useless talk and developing yourself would be a start as well. Rest is upto God. I know this is probably not the answer you are looking for but this is what I did and it helped me in my journey. Also make a habit of reading the Quran daily. The more you read it, the more you will begin to appreciate the wisdom in there. I constantly see how the world acts as predicted in the Quran and this gives me more faith in the reading. God willing you will also begin to see the words of Quran being confirmed by the world around until you will know that this is the truth. No need to rush, He will show you the way if it be His will. -
Why do the people at free minds seem to be so confident that the Quran only approach is definitely the correct way of thinking? Has it occurred to you that the Quran itself might have been compromised?
People at free minds are not all free minded...
In the same manner as not all Muslim are muslim....Most of them were coming from religious / sectarian cultural background.
Within such culture they are used to the idea that there must be ONLY ONE DOCTRINE that is correct and the other doctrines / ideas are not correct and must be vanquished / conquered / beaten / proved to be FALSE at any cost.I was too coming from religious / sectarian cultural background as such I understand perfectly their point of view..
I myself was raised a traditional sunni muslim. I wasn't until several years ago that I decided that I should do my own research on Islam instead of relying on the sheikhs as there was so many conflicting arguments. I started reading the sunnah, and while I found a lot of it irrational of little significance, I initially kept reading in hopes that there would be some wisdom that would make it worthwhile. Failing at that, I looked into the background info on the hadith collections and its authors and like many of you, I found the arguments against the hadith compelling.
bravo bravo bravo
I applauded to your approach...
Find wisdom whatever and wherever that may be....It was then that I turned to the Quran and the Quran only forums such as free minds. I read through a lot of posts and discussions, and even gave my own feedback in some discussions; but eventually it started to feel like even this is a facade. It seems to me like the people on these forums are grasping at straws, because Quran is their last line of defense in saying that Islam is still the only remaining authentic religion.
Plumbers will use any tools to fix the plumbing...
Because that is what they were thought to do and what they're used to..Otherwise it requires a radical turnaround in mindset which is very difficult for human...
Just like with the hadith, I have read the Quran carefully. I gave it the benefit of the doubt. I hoped that there was some wisdom to be found that would make it all worthwhile. But no. The Quran does not seem to be anything special, and I don't think that if God wanted to send a message to mankind, this would be what he left us with.
God "sends" message to mankind (and also aliens, animals and all other things) every milliseconds...
Most of the Quran is spent praising God himself and reminding you of his power, and threatening you with the punishment you will receive if you don't believe it and follow it.
Read other materials written in the past around middle east, which claimed to be written by deities.. it follows exactly the same pattern....
By hiding behind a scary and punishing deity, the author are free to prove the truthfulness of his/her point.. while demanding everyone to obey the author as he was carrying the authority from deity / deities..
Why should bad wives punished by drowning? While bad husbands are not?
Because MARDUK said so in His law.. do you dare to make Him angry?
When He's angry He will torture you for all eternity after you die...When any of the things in the Quran are proven wrong, it is the go to response that it is "an incorrect translation" or it "has a deeper meaning that we don't understand because we have not been enlightened by God".
The idols need to be defended at all cost..
I see similar attitudes even today in North Korea (towards Kim's family), People Republic of China (towards Maoism) or even USA (towards Donald Trump). And I bet you can find similar attitudes around the world... this is common among human....I don't know if Muhammad wrote the Quran, or some other people wrote it after his death and spread it around using his name as an influence; but to me the Quran doesn't seem to be anything of a divine nature. It seems like a book written by men while trying to sound mystical and giving a false sense of enlightenment.
Like any other books it was definitely written by man or group of man...
I don't know why the people here feel the need to keep defending the Quran. If it is all that it claims to be, its own content should be enough proof of what it's worth.
Agree.. the first step to be objective is to ignore the background / the subject who wrote it.. and try to understand the content. Make assumption that the material was written by somebody which you have NO ATTACHMENT with... Make assumptions that the material was written by Chinese or Angolans or North Korean and see whether the content still make sense...
