Religious People Do Not Behave More Morally Than Atheists
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Not necessarily the "biological chemical" ..
But more towards the "Ego".. the "I".. the "ME ME ME"... and socially turned to "WE WE WE".I think this is correct. Biology and natural instincts are not so much the problem (only for religious fanatics). It's the ego, something artificial, made out of illusions.
427 God wishes to forgive you, but those who follow their own appetites wish to see you stray grievously into error.
428 God wishes to lighten your burdens, for man was created weak.It says "weak", there is not something like a devil inside of man. This a false modern view on my opinion, that Satan is actually something bad inside the brain of humans.
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interesting read brother jaffar
God bless you all
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What is bad about an ego anyways, isn't it about what you do with the ego which matters?
Bad and Good is relative to one perspective...
Prevailing ego shall override the drive for empathy resulted in 'sacrificing other interest for the sake of self'.. also called 'ego centric'.
Prevailing empathy over ego resulted in 'sacrificing self interest for the sake of others'..
Which one is good and bad it depends on context and perspective...Some people seem to argue you have to give up on your personal being just because of some flimsy belief.
At one point in time everyone will be forced to give up his/her ego... when they face their ultimate fate of death..
Death is the end of one's ego.. the end of one's self identity... but not necessarily the end of one's consciousness...The fate that is commonly shared by everything.. regardless of their religiosity or atheisity
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These human devils would not come very far just with (bad) instinctive behaviour to convince people of anything to follow them.
214 When they meet the faithful, they declare 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone with their devils they say to them 'We follow none but you we were only mocking.'
They have to twist the truth in a clever way that it sounds like something good to many people. There are devils (of men and djinn) in Quran, it sounds like this is the nature of their kind, but not the nature of humans in general.
Naturally we are created to live together in tribes. That is how humans lived during a long time in history. A modern state or a religious group is an artificial tribe and is meant to create the same solidarity in the community as we would naturally have in a tribe, a relatively small and manageable group. -
You're implying on egotism, this is something quite different from a discussion about the ego, which is about one's identity of being, their independent existence as someone.
Through objectivity; there is good versus bad and it's determined by the result of an action and so there's no room for subjectivity. If someone says something is good which isn't this person is deluded and ignorant, for there is always something which is better than the bad (or worst). There is a good saying "Always choose the lesser of two evils".
There is a definite good versus bad.
By using your definition that Good and Bad is determined by the result of an action.
Implies Good and bad is always 'relative' through which lenses / point of view that you are looking on..Even now, human started to realize that Truth and False also depends on context and lenses..
Example
Adolf Hitler and his action.. Good or Bad/Evil?It depends for his enemies British, French, Russians, Dutch, Jews, Gypsies he is bad / evil.
Yet his action triggered the fall of European Colonialism as an aftermath.. thus for Europeans Colonial subjects, ie Indians, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indonesians, Vietnamese, Malaysians, Singaporeans, Myanmar, Mozambique, Congo, Algeria, Tunisia, Nigeria. Hitler's actions for them caused good results.Regarding the death of ego or consciousness, this is based on your belief and while I peacefully accept your belief this isn't my belief, I find the ego (identity of being) to be equal to the consciousness.
Westerners (Middle Easterners included) traditions tends to view their Ego / Identity stick around with them even after their death..
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Well, we identify with all that is of this physical world... like the body (race, gender, sexual preferences, talents), environment (family, nationality, religion, profession), and mind (aptitudes, likes and dislikes, memories, experiences, education, temperament) etc.
This is what we think we are. But perhaps we are something else, beyond body/mind/environment.
We argue about God when we don't even know our selves.We identify with all that is not really us.
The lowest level of this kind of identification is when we become too much like an animal... instinctive drives, hormones, survival etc. It is then that we rape, murder and steal. We are totally driven by fear and chemicals in a basic survival mode... like an animal out of control. In media today, everything is about sex, greed and murder. Everywhere sex, and our heroes are assassins and money will happiness and status.
What a failure
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Then evil or bad led to something good, but still was Hitler's actions innately bad or more accurately evil or deluded from his side.
The co-traveler with Moses did bad, but it was the lesser of two evils. Doing seemingly bad things isn't necessarily equal to evil for evil is in the intent. Hitler was acting in evilness, but that a consequence of the mayhem was the liberation of colonial states is indirect even if related consequently.
Since it did happened.. then Hitler was acting in accordance to God's plan and will.
He was a tool or a mean to mark the end the European Colonialism... and mark a new era of Emancipation, Globalism and Humanism...Let's take another example..
Arabs / Muslims Invasion to Sassanid Persia in 7th century.
Good for Muslims and Arabs, Bad/Evil for the Sassanids and Persians.
Good for the religion of Islam, Bad / Evil for the religion of Zoroastrianism.I prefer to speak of what's orderly and sound versus what's chaotic, deluded and doesn't lead to development mentally.
There is an order.. infact everything was, is and always will be in order..
Chaos doesn't exist... otherwise the true God is not fully in control...
Bad/Evil or Good is just a matter of perspective..We are totally driven by fear and chemicals in a basic survival mode... like an animal out of control.
)There was a psychological experiment which pitted FEAR vs Conscience. (ie Kill him or I will kill you kind of situation)
The result was Fear won 99% of the time...
Yet the 1% is the interesting part... the very small percentage of human who dare to side with his / her own conscience, make sacrifice and fight against all odds... -
peace all
@ jaffar your grip on logical ideas about universal God are excellent i must say i agree with lot of what you ever said actually infact i always have these thinkings as much as i progress in the life
although where i stuck i may share with you i think i asked it before
as we know when a machinery is not working properly we replace it with something else same like God replace systems of cruelty and destroy nations whenever he will so yeh everything is happening according to the will of God now what will gona happen with the tool what God used to bring change in nations people like changees khan and hitlor
what is the punishment of the one who do wrong with his own will and when it happened we said it happened coz it was also the will of God if it was the will of God then why we blame a rapist murderer or robber in that matter
if the perception of good and bad is related to this life span what one will get afterlife?
iys a long topic i did not post all other things what comes in my mind may b next time when the topic advanced i share those things
as a side note i m also thinking and figuring out lot of things in my mind but its better if i get ideas of other brilliant minds
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as we know when a machinery is not working properly we replace it with something else same like God replace systems of cruelty and destroy nations whenever he will so yeh everything is happening according to the will of God now what will gona happen with the tool what God used to bring change in nations people like changees khan and hitlor
The machine is actually working properly.. yet we perceived it as 'not working properly'... because it behaves not in the same manner as we have expected...
what is the punishment of the one who do wrong with his own will and when it happened we said it happened coz it was also the will of God if it was the will of God then why we blame a rapist murderer or robber in that matter
Should there be any 'punishment'?
Historically the idea was developed during the period where human was transitioning from "hunter and gatherer" lifestyle towards "sedentary". To maintain a 'social order' within sedentary society a set of rules need to be maintained. To enforce the rules and discouraging people to break it, a punishment should be in place for the violation of the rule. The punishment is made to be so brutal and often executed in public to produce FEAR within the society...
From crucifixion, impalement (piercing a spear through your arse), beheading, amputation, whipping, stoning and many other means of brutal punishment.
The punishment serves as 'reminder' to those who dare to violate the rules..
As controlling human behavior through FEAR is the most effective method..
Proven up until today... see North Korea as a perfect example...For those who dare to become an apostate of North Korea citizenship shall face public torture and execution (when caught) or when not caught, all of their remaining family member shall be executed.
The rule is being enforced by "The Ultimate People Robber" and his cohort of goons, they titled themselves with something like "Emperor", "Khan", "Caliph", "Sultan", "King", "Shah", "Pharaoh", "Fuhrer", "Great Leader" etc..
The "Ultimate Robber" claim his/her authority is coming from the heaven (Deities)... thus the rule that they have written MUST be considered as The Rule from The Gods... OR ELSE!!As such those who managed to escape the gruesome punishment from the ruler (read People Robber) including those who managed to escape from North Korea, shall face the ultimate punishment from Deities Himself after they die.
With such belief and view in place, the ruler shall ensure obedience from their subjects...
Until.... they are beaten by a bigger and meaner robber...... (invasion from other Empire)
In modern times, (some) human has grown a bit wiser...
A place which was used to be called "Dungeon" now are being renamed as "Correction Facility".
The objective was no longer to "PUNISH" but to "AMEND" the behavior of the people who violated the society's law..
Slowly changing from "hatred / revenge" to "love and compassion".The law was no longer enforced just because "The Deities Said So" but it's based on an agreement within the society itself for their own common good. If they find some law need a revision.. they revise accordingly...
if the perception of good and bad is related to this life span what one will get afterlife?
That's the most beautiful mystery.....
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hmm intresting read and logical analysis by u brother jaffar
but do u think the fear of no punishment upon immoralities can increase the ratio of crime in society
yeh the mystery part is so beautiful keep u giving signal of something new to come so can u add something in it brother jaffar. i mean do u think one day this planet will come to an end or the actual ending is the ending of body this planet will go through forever?
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but do u think the fear of no punishment upon immoralities can increase the ratio of crime in society
The FEAR of Brutal Punishment upon breaking the rules shall rise the obedience level of society to the rules.
A good living example North Korea
- Apostasy = Immorality
- Apostasy Death and after the glorious leader Kim Jong Un came to power he enforce a more brutal punishment.
if one manage to leave the country.. the entire family shall be executed.. publicly...
Results The number of apostasy reduced significantly.
Living testimonies from apostates
https//youtu.be/DyqUw0WYwoc
Minutes 936
Yet no brutal punishment doesn't necessarily increase the level of violation of society to certain rules..
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Second thought, you know who else work with fear ? Kids ! Not exactly, but parents certainly use fear to teach children.
I'm not sure, but I think kids are the most people open to ideas, maybe they're just not given enough time when being taught. Parents mostly focus on punishment to raise awareness in children. Now how can the child not cry when he is being punished for a thing he did not understand ? Injustice is truly a sad thing.
Maybe the parents of free-minds can give us a little insight on parenting. -
but do u think the fear of no punishment upon immoralities can increase the ratio of crime in society
I really think there are variables in such case.
That reminds of how whites are perceived here. The joke is that you can leave your car unlocked in a white neighborhood without worrying about whether it will be stolen. The whole point is that people believe the group is taught to be honest and moral at home. They take it very seriously and thus, they commit less crimes.
But then again, rich Arab countries have far lesser crimes than what we see in the west. You won't find any Arabian thief there. I think it has a lot to do with satisfaction they have with their wealth at home.
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The joke is that you can leave your car unlocked in a white neighborhood without worrying about whether it will be stolen. The whole point is that people believe the group is taught to be honest and moral at home. They take it very seriously and thus, they commit less crimes.
Haah! The whites were thought to be honest and moral???
The "Whites" on average are wealthier than the "Blacks" in the US today..
Which reduced the "needs" to do petty crime such as stealing a car (or other items).
Due to historical reason where their ancestors came with land/asset possession from colonial government (which they actually stole from the native tribes).See how biased one see what "crime" is.. in this case "stealing" and "robbery"..
Which refer to my point above
A Ruler is the biggest robber until .. they are beaten by a bigger and meaner robber......But then again, rich Arab countries have far lesser crimes than what we see in the west. You won't find any Arabian thief there. I think it has a lot to do with satisfaction they have with their wealth at home.
Again it depends on how you define "stealing"...
The frequency of "petty crime" might be low in 'wealthy' society and/or 'poor' society with brutal ruler.But one overlook the ruler itself.... "brutal robbery" does exist at greater scale in 'wealthy' society and/or poor society with brutal ruler. Being performed by the ruler themselves..
Saudi royal family "robbed" oil revenue from the common folks living around the oil wells.
Kim royal family "robbed" North Koreans from their basic rights and needs.
Ibn Saud "robbed" the land from Ottoman Empire
British "robbed" the land from Native Americans -
Haah! The whites were thought to be honest and moral???
Not were, but are considered honest and moral!
The "Whites" on average are wealthier than the "Blacks" in the US today..
Which reduced the "needs" to do petty crime such as stealing a car (or other items).
Most American whites are middle class people making somewhere near $40,000 annually. In our case, wealth isn't something that can be used to evaluate one's urge to steal. You just have to look at the crime rate neighborhood to neighborhood. I guess that's how the joke came in.
Due to historical reason where their ancestors came with land/asset possession from colonial government (which they actually stole from the native tribes).
See how biased one see what "crime" is.. in this case "stealing" and "robbery"..
There is a difference between yesterday and today. I won't deny that in other states some people still are living in the past. But in general, attempts have been made to correct the wrong. Native Americans can study in universities with easy to get grants of $1000 and enjoy healthcare for free while all of us have to pay for the same. Employment is also easy for them. Unfortunately, not many among them use these opportunities.
Which refer to my point above
A Ruler is the biggest robber until .. they are beaten by a bigger and meaner robber......Typically, the ones who provide no value to the world/people or show no appreciation for what they have while thoughtfully making it their benefits see their lands snatched by another.
Again it depends on how you define "stealing"...
The frequency of "petty crime" might be low in 'wealthy' society and/or 'poor' society with brutal ruler.But one overlook the ruler itself.... "brutal robbery" does exist at greater scale in 'wealthy' society and/or poor society with brutal ruler. Being performed by the ruler themselves..
They can get away because people don't want to hold them accountable.
Saudi royal family "robbed" oil revenue from the common folks living around the oil wells.
Kim royal family "robbed" North Koreans from their basic rights and needs.
Ibn Saud "robbed" the land from Ottoman Empire
British "robbed" the land from Native AmericansSaudi citizens are still quite rich. I guess it isn't a news to anyone that the royal family is corrupted. Same is true for the UAE royal family. But they kept the citizens happy. Hence, no one complains.
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Not were, but are considered honest and moral!
"Brothers ? the white people are like poisonous serpents when chilled they are feeble and harmless, but invigorate them with warmth and they sting their benefactors to death.
Live your life so that the fear of death can never enter your heart ... Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and in the service of your people...
Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none. When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself...
When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose lives are filled with the fear of death, so that when time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home"-- Tecumseh, Chief of Tecumseh's Confederacy
Some native americans even considered Tecumseh as a Prophet of the Great Spirit...
There is a difference between yesterday and today. I won't deny that in other states some people still are living in the past. But in general, attempts have been made to correct the wrong. Native Americans can study in universities with easy to get grants of $1000 and enjoy healthcare for free while all of us have to pay for the same. Employment is also easy for them. Unfortunately, not many among them use these opportunities.
I didn't say that it was 'wrong'.. since it happened.. then it all happened in accordance to God's will..
And we haven't dig deep enough to the "Native Americans" itself..
Who said that they themselves weren't robber??
The Commanches, Apache, Aztecs are known to have oppressed, raid and enslaved their neighboring tribes...The clashes were rooted in 'cultural' aspect..
It beleaguered the natives when european IMMIGRANTS came and claimed a portion of land as "their property".
Such notion and concept doesn't even exist within their mindset..?What is this you call property? It cannot be the earth, for the land is our mother, nourishing all her children, beasts, birds, fish and all men. The woods, the streams, everything on it belongs to everybody and is for the use of all. How can one man say it belongs only to him? We do not own the freshness of the air or the sparkle of the water. How can you buy them from us??
-- Assasoit?My reason teaches me that land cannot be sold. The Great Spirit gave it to his children to live upon. So long as they occupy and cultivate it, they have a right to the soil. Nothing can be sold but such things as can be carried away?
-- Black HawkSaudi citizens are still quite rich. I guess it isn't a news to anyone that the royal family is corrupted. Same is true for the UAE royal family. But they kept the citizens happy. Hence, no one complains.
Rich?
I don't think so... that is the 'image' being propagandized to the external world...Saudi Arabia Uncovered | FRONTLINE PBS
https//youtu.be/UV5O-0sYmkIYet the Saud ruling family kept the citizens CONTENT through brutal PUNISHMENT for the "IMMORALS" and "APOSTATES".
Where the definition of "immorals" and "apostates" are entirely up to the them and most of the time it is very 'flexible'...