People of the Qur'an are more divided?

huruf

The more I am at it the more convinced I am that we do need to rediscover the Qur'an.

There is too much eagerness to square the detail, and may be not enough awareness that we are missing the forest from looking at the trees.

For instance, i you are giving an anesthesia for a surgery, what is the fores? That it serves its purpose of making the patient not feel the pain, while not harming him. The forest would be the whole instrumental and chemicals you will use for that. It is obvious that those will be the ones that for that particular operation and person will best serve the purpose of keeping him without feeling pain while not harming him.

It is by grasping well the forest that we may go into it and examine carefully its trees and get knowledge a to how each of them works.

It is to be noticed that for instance Qur'an does nto go much into dates and into specific places or even specific persons. That is a hint that what matters are not the places or the dates but what is being enlived before our eyes.

Many times it happens that people complain that the Qur'an does nto go headlong into detail. If we do believe that the Qur'an is the revelation God did want to give us, guaranteed, ou understanding should be that if we are not given specific details, we simply do not need them for he teachings the Qur'an wants to transmit us.

Salaam

armom

Salaam armom

Breaking shackles is not easy and rapid. It took me years to get out of hadithi propaganda and break the shackles. But once I got conviction that Quraan is the criteria there was no turning back.

I agree brother, but have you noticed that no one still agrees on SALAT. It's a very important matter according to the Qur'an, and nearly 82 times mentioned. But we still couldn't even agree what does the word SALAT means.

So some starts praying Physically while others aren't praying and believing that it's not physical ritual. And you will find many threads in this forum who are arguing on how many prayers are there and all are claiming to be arabic experts. They all proving through arabic their point of view and still couldn't agree with the prayer which is an important subject of our faith.

If you look deeply, we are really getting divided, If not then why there has to be a debate between a "Quran Alone" vs "Quranist"

I am still seeking for the truth and I hope God guides me and everyone to find the truth.

Novice

I agree brother, but have you noticed that no one still agrees on SALAT. It's a very important matter according to the Qur'an, and nearly 82 times mentioned. But we still couldn't even agree what does the word SALAT means.

If salat is not detailed in Quran as a ritual then why we want to make it a ritual? Why not take it as an arabic word which has a meaning of following closely and try to understand it in the context of ayats?

If it is meant to be a ritual then would it not be fair to detail it in the Quran in a simple way so everyone could follow it without wrestling to find the details?

armom

If salat is not detailed in Quran as a ritual then why we want to make it a ritual? Why not take it as an arabic word which has a meaning of following closely and try to understand it in the context of ayats?

If it is meant to be a ritual then would it not be fair to detail it in the Quran in a simple way so everyone could follow it without wrestling to find the details?

So if the Qur'anic prostration and bowing down is not physical, then why do the bible have bowing and prostrating too as a physical sense?

The_Sardar

So if the Qur'anic prostration and bowing down is not physical, then why do the bible have bowing and prostrating too as a physical sense?

If you think that the Bible is the Injeel in the Quran then you may be suprised that root word which is Nuun-Jiim-Lam (--&#1604 and it does not mean Bible it means
evangel, to become verdant, disclose/manifest, have wide/large eyes.
anjala to pasture (cattle) on herbage.
minjal luxuriant (robes), clever camel-driver.
Has been implied to mean "good news" due to 616. Much of the message of Jesus is implied to have been forgotten by his people, see 514.
wide wound, reaping hook, toothed/serrated/plain edge.

injil n.com. 33, 348, 365, 546, 547, 566, 568, 5110, 7157, 9111, 4829, 5727

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, pages 282 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=njl

Novice

So if the Qur'anic prostration and bowing down is not physical, then why do the bible have bowing and prostrating too as a physical sense?

Please explore

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

Brother the Quran is the criteria, so are you using bible to define the Quran.

Layth

Salam,

I agree brother, but have you noticed that no one still agrees on SALAT. It's a very important matter according to the Qur'an, and nearly 82 times mentioned. But we still couldn't even agree what does the word SALAT means.

So some starts praying Physically while others aren't praying and believing that it's not physical ritual. And you will find many threads in this forum who are arguing on how many prayers are there and all are claiming to be arabic experts. They all proving through arabic their point of view and still couldn't agree with the prayer which is an important subject of our faith.

If you look deeply, we are really getting divided, If not then why there has to be a debate between a "Quran Alone" vs "Quranist"

Why does it bother you that people agree or disagree? That is exactly what the freedom of choice that God has given us is about - that we challenge each other and we challenge our understanding (like Abraham challenged his own understanding of the the nature of God).

Also, be careful you are not trying to replace the Sunni sect that you have grown-up with with a new sect that you are searching for. Following the Quran is about personal salvation, not group mentality.

And to answer your final point, we are to be "Muslims" (not Quranists, not Quran Alone, etc..). Any name other than what God has given is creating a sect.

Regards,

Layth

huruf

Salam,

Why does it bother you that people agree or disagree? That is exactly what the freedom of choice that God has given us is about - that we challenge each other and we challenge our understanding (like Abraham challenged his own understanding of the the nature of God).

Also, be careful you are not trying to replace the Sunni sect that you have grown-up with with a new sect that you are searching for. Following the Quran is about personal salvation, not group mentality.

And to answer your final point, we are to be "Muslims" (not Quranists, not Quran Alone, etc..). Any name other than what God has given is creating a sect.

Regards,

Layth

Great post.

Salaam

imrankhawaja

Salam,

And to answer your final point, we are to be "Muslims" (not Quranists, not Quran Alone, etc..). Any name other than what God has given is creating a sect.

Regards,

Layth

peace all.

these words are "height of excellency"

God bless you layth

armom

Salam,

Why does it bother you that people agree or disagree? That is exactly what the freedom of choice that God has given us is about - that we challenge each other and we challenge our understanding (like Abraham challenged his own understanding of the the nature of God).

Also, be careful you are not trying to replace the Sunni sect that you have grown-up with with a new sect that you are searching for. Following the Quran is about personal salvation, not group mentality.

And to answer your final point, we are to be "Muslims" (not Quranists, not Quran Alone, etc..). Any name other than what God has given is creating a sect.

Regards,

Layth

Salaam brother,
Thanks for your reply.

Honestly, I was never into any sects now or before )
Always tried to search for truth.

Majority of the people follow Tablighi Jamat in our area and people can't go against them as these people pray, zikr etc whole day.

But I used reason and kept searching. As I've read the Qur'an, I found Allah says there is no sect in Islam. And after that I started calling myself only "Muslim" following Qur'an and Sahih Hadith. It's recently that I found the videos of Edip yuksel who was telling Hadith is not the source of Islam and I started researching more and found about Rashad Khalifa.

And then I read that even he is wrong about 19 theory. tempt

So, now still searching and I appreciate the answers that I am getting here from people which is helping me in my research.
Many of the answers seems logically and many I do find illogical.

Again, thanks for your efforts of answering )

armom

Please explore

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html

Brother the Quran is the criteria, so are you using bible to define the Quran.

Thanks brother, will read the article.

And no, I am not using the bible to define the Quran. As the bible still contains some words from God and it's the old scriptures, I just game an example that we also find quite similar prayer on the bible. Allahu A'lam

I still need to find atleast home historical facts regarding "Salat Sessions" which is not bowing or prostrating.

Do contribute if you have more information.

Thank you for your efforts!

huruf

Physically prostration gives a lot of peace. It does a lot of good. It is restful, feels great, gives peace and expansion.

I cannot do it due to a physical condition and I miss it to the point that the whole salaa, as ritual for me now has no benefit that I can notice and that I cannot get by praying in some other way.

That said, physical qualities of experiences have theire parallel in the nonphysical realm. In a sense, when we feel the sensation of postrating, we are feeling the sensation of pure islam, abandonment in the hands of God.

When we bend in ruku3 in deference, in acknowledgement of Gods benevolence towards us adn feel grateful, it is paralleled in the non physical by the recognition of God providing for us, for our existence and development.

So I do recognize the essential meaning of prostration and bending and of rituals in general, they do have a value as physical confirmation of the confirmation of essence. But rituals devoid of essential meaning is nothing, are a trevesti and a door to hyporicy. A waste.

It is also a matter of individual make up. For some people ritual may be absolutely necessary, for others they may be completely superfluous.

In this as in many other matters there is no need to be dogmatic. Let us think of the sura Al ma'ida, at this table of God we are given everything and the best, we should not reject anything and we do not have all the same capacity or tast to eat the same amounts of every single thing. So let each help himself to whatever does him best service.

Salaam

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace to all.

I know I’m a bit late, but I figured I’d comment on this…

The concept of unity is important within any religious context. Islam itself claims to be a continuation of the previous faiths, just as the Quran is said to be a continuation of the previous books. Those faiths are, among other things, organized and, to some degree, centralized. God has always situated His redemptive works within groups and societies, not individual people. For example, Israel was a nation; Jesus’ followers were a class of people; Muhammad’s followers made up an “ummah”/community; etc.

God has never constructed an individualistic system. That’s why the Quran says to ‘bow and prostrate with those who bow and prostrate.’ Fighting is prescribed for people in groups, not as individuals. Entire nations were destroyed for neglecting or rejecting God’s ordinances. Even the opening prayer of the Quran alludes to a collective body of people:

“You (alone) WE serve, and you (alone) WE ask for help. Guide US to the straight path.”

The idea that God has constructed His system to cater to individual people is totally incompatible with every scriptural revelation. The people of every generation are consistently told to serve/worship God as a unit. Thus, if people can’t agree on what they should be doing, especially regarding major issues, that’s a big problem that needs to be addressed.

good logic

So are we not going back to GOD as individuals and judged as individuals?
Are we not supposed to be individually accountable at GOD s?

Of course we live in groups and socialise but we submit individually and serve GOD Alone individually .
.
The relationship with GOD is an individual act first of all. GOD addresses each one of us:
"Aslim Wajhaka Li Allah" Submit to your creator. GOD asks Abraham to submit .
Preaching to your nearest and dearest is a natural process ,but they will succeed only if they individually submit each to their creator.
Then together as a group we have the same common purpose. To study/socialise together, live according to GOD s instructions, mainly as "Muslims to GOD who do good ,have good morals and are peaceful and respectful to one another.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, @good-logic.

While I agree that “salvation” (depending on how you define that) is based on what we do as individuals, the system itself — “Islam,” or submission — is a collective act. The Quran emphasizes this over and over again:

And hold firmly together to the rope of Allah, and do not be divided. Remember Allah’s favour upon you (plural) when you (plural) were enemies, then He united your hearts, so you(plural) — by His grace — became brothers. And you (plural) were at the brink of a fiery pit and He saved you (plural) from it. This is how Allah makes His revelations clear to you, so that you may be guided. (Q. 3:103)

Again, God’s system was never designed to be individualistic. Redemption is a collective process. Yes, individual people are required to play their respective parts, but God has always saved and redeemed them in groups — first, the nation (or children) of Israel, then the Church (or followers) of Jesus, and finally, according to the Quran, the ummah (or community) of Muhammad.

In the above passage, the “rope of Allah” is a collective instrument that the people are instructed to hold onto together. The fiery pit is referring to hell, and the people are saved from it as a group. The command to ‘not be divided’ implies that they’re expected to be on one accord. Thus, the idea that Islam is entirely individualistic clearly conflicts with this.

Peace.

good logic

Peace Ahmad.
Nice to hear from you brother.
We are social being and we help one anther and depend on each other , have relationships with family ,friends and the community in our worldly life that is also affected by our spiritual life.
However as far as our Islam to GD is concerned, we have to dedicate it to GOD Alone first and foremost and rely /trust on GOD Alone. This relationship is individual, special and takes priority:

If you disbelieve, God does not need anyone. But He dislikes to see His servants make the wrong decision. If you decide to be appreciative, He is pleased for you. No soul bears the sins of any other soul. Ultimately, to your Lord is your return, then He will inform you of everything you had done. He is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.
إِن تَكفُروا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَنِىٌّ عَنكُم وَلا يَرضىٰ لِعِبادِهِ الكُفرَ وَإِن تَشكُروا يَرضَهُ لَكُم وَلا تَزِرُ وازِرَةٌ وِزرَ أُخرىٰ ثُمَّ إِلىٰ رَبِّكُم مَرجِعُكُم فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِما كُنتُم تَعمَلونَ إِنَّهُ عَليمٌ بِذاتِ الصُّدورِ
Is it not better to be one of those who meditate in the night, prostrating and staying up, being aware of the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of their Lord? Say, "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
أَمَّن هُوَ قٰنِتٌ ءاناءَ الَّيلِ ساجِدًا وَقائِمًا يَحذَرُ الـٔاخِرَةَ وَيَرجوا رَحمَةَ رَبِّهِ قُل هَل يَستَوِى الَّذينَ يَعلَمونَ وَالَّذينَ لا يَعلَمونَ إِنَّما يَتَذَكَّرُ أُولُوا الأَلبٰبِ
Say, "O My servants who believed, you shall reverence your Lord." For those who worked righteousness in this world, a good reward. God's earth is spacious, and those who steadfastly persevere will receive their recompense generously, without limits.
قُل يٰعِبادِ الَّذينَ ءامَنُوا اتَّقوا رَبَّكُم لِلَّذينَ أَحسَنوا فى هٰذِهِ الدُّنيا حَسَنَةٌ وَأَرضُ اللَّهِ وٰسِعَةٌ إِنَّما يُوَفَّى الصّٰبِرونَ أَجرَهُم بِغَيرِ حِسابٍ
God ALONE
Say, "I have been commanded to Ubud/serve God, devoting the Deen absolutely to Him alone.
قُل إِنّى أُمِرتُ أَن أَعبُدَ اللَّهَ مُخلِصًا لَهُ الدّينَ
"And I was commanded to be the utmost submitter."
وَأُمِرتُ لِأَن أَكونَ أَوَّلَ المُسلِمينَ
Say, "I fear, if I disobeyed my Lord, the retribution of a great day."
قُل إِنّى أَخافُ إِن عَصَيتُ رَبّى عَذابَ يَومٍ عَظيمٍ
Say, "God is the only One I Ubud/serve, devoting my religion absolutely to Him alone.
قُلِ اللَّهَ أَعبُدُ مُخلِصًا لَهُ دينى
I agree with you in that there a social responsibility for the believer, but ,the individual and his submission is a personal one with His Lord:
If God renders one's heart content with Submission, he will be following a light from his Lord. Therefore, woe to those whose hearts are hardened against God's message; they have gone far astray.
أَفَمَن شَرَحَ اللَّهُ صَدرَهُ لِلإِسلٰمِ فَهُوَ عَلىٰ نورٍ مِن رَبِّهِ فَوَيلٌ لِلقٰسِيَةِ قُلوبُهُم مِن ذِكرِ اللَّهِ أُولٰئِكَ فى ضَلٰلٍ مُبينٍ

I was just pointing out the Individual s responsibility and account at GOD s:
Every soul will be paid for whatever it did, for He is fully aware of everything they have done.
وَوُفِّيَت كُلُّ نَفسٍ ما عَمِلَت وَهُوَ أَعلَمُ بِما يَفعَلونَ
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, @good-logic.

I don't entirely disagree with you. We do have a personal responsibility toward God, and we're all individually accountable to Him. However, our alignment within His system — whether you believe that to be Islam, or if you believe it to be something else (e.g. Judaism, Christianity, etc.) — will be expressed through a collective (and cooperative) institution.

Thus, I'm not saying that we're not all individually responsible for our deeds. I'm saying that the guidelines for our deeds — the things we're supposed to do — are presented to the collective; and the things we're supposed to do are real things.

I'll put it like this... God, according to the Qur'an, tells the believers to do specific things (e.g. salaat, zakaat, etc.). That implies that those things have ontological value in and of themselves. In other words, they're not arbitrary words that each individual can interpret on their own. "Salaat" refers to a specific thing; and, if you do something other than that specific thing, then you're (definitionally) not doing "salaat." Thus, it's incumbent upon the believers, whoever they are, to know (and agree on) what exactly "salaat" is and how to do it.

So, again, I'm not saying we're not individually responsible for our personal actions. We are. However, God sent His messages down to groups of people, not individuals. Therefore, we're all tasked with doing the same thing (e.g. salaat, zakaat, etc.). God sent down one command to everyone because everyone should, generally speaking, agree on what that thing is. That's the collective element. Everyone got the same message, and there's an objective way to understand that message.

To put it simply, if you think you're the only person in the world who truly knows and understands what "salaat" means, then maybe you're the one in error.

Peace, and God bless you as well.

good logic

@Ahmad_Bilal said in People of the Qur'an are more divided?:

To put it simply, if you think you're the only person in the world who truly knows and understands what "salaat" means, then maybe you're the one in error.

May be you are talking in general here or you mean "me".
Regardless, it does not matter because "Salaat" is a connection to GOD and a private relation between the individual and GOD Alone first even when done in groups.
There is no benefit to each other from doing "Salaat" in groups,except our identity . As groups we are uniting on GOD Alone and serving GOD Alone . Each individual in the group has come to do "Salaat" to connect /commemorate/dedicate this time to GOD Alone.
Only GOD knows the true from the false by His trial of them.
Dedicating our "Islam" to GOD Alone is personal and individual wheter alone in privacy or in groups.
But it is better to socialise with like minded believers, study with them and support each other in life.:

Say, "My Lord has guided me in a straight path - the perfect religion of Abraham, monotheism. He never was an idol worshiper."
قُل إِنَّنى هَدىٰنى رَبّى إِلىٰ صِرٰطٍ مُستَقيمٍ دينًا قِيَمًا مِلَّةَ إِبرٰهيمَ حَنيفًا وَما كانَ مِنَ المُشرِكينَ
Say, "My Salaat, my other Nusuk/ practices, my life and my death, are all devoted absolutely to God alone, the Lord of the universe.
قُل إِنَّ صَلاتى وَنُسُكى وَمَحياىَ وَمَماتى لِلَّهِ رَبِّ العٰلَمينَ
"He has no partner. This is what I am commanded to believe, and I am the first to submit."
لا شَريكَ لَهُ وَبِذٰلِكَ أُمِرتُ وَأَنا۠ أَوَّلُ المُسلِمينَ
GOD bless you brother.
Peace.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace, @good-logic.

Just to clarify, by "you," I didn't mean you in particular. I was speaking generally...

However, I think my point still stands. You said:

@good-logic said in People of the Qur'an are more divided?:

it does not matter because "Salaat" is a connection to GOD and a private relation between the individual and GOD Alone first even when done in groups.
There is no benefit to each other from doing "Salaat" in groups,except our identity . As groups we are uniting on GOD Alone and serving GOD Alone . Each individual in the group has come to do "Salaat" to connect /commemorate/dedicate this time to GOD Alone.

Even if we suppose that there's very little benefit to performing salaat in groups (which I would personally disagree with), that doesn't actually fix the problem. You're arguing that salaat is a "private relation between the individual and GOD Alone." However, how are you determining this? Again, the Quranist movement can't even agree on what salaat is! So, how do you know it's an individual practice?

What is salaat?

When you say that 'each individual in the group has come to do salaat,' that's incorrect, at least in a Quran-Alone context. Rather, each individual has decided what salaat means to him (or her), and they independently act according to their own individual beliefs and ideas. And that's simply not how any of the (classical) Abrahamic faiths have ever operated. Everyone is supposed to be on one accord.

To reiterate, salaat, according to the Quran, is an actual thing — meaning it has its own ontological value. In other words, when God tells people to do (or keep) the "salaat," He's instructing them to perform and maintain a specific thing. Thus, if you and the person next to you are both doing "salaat," but your 'salaats' look different, then one (or both) of you is wrong. That same idea can be applied across the board.

For example, let's assume that the shahaada is a religious rite (as it is in most Islamic sects). If God assigned that shahaada, then everyone is required to say that shahaada; and they can do that individually or collectively. However, if everyone's shahaada is different, then there's clearly a problem.

Peace, and God bless.

good logic

Well brother, is this what happens with different sects of islam anyway?

"> To reiterate, salaat, according to the Quran, is an actual thing — meaning it has its own ontological value. In other words, when God tells people to do (or keep) the "salaat," He's instructing them to perform and maintain a specific thing. Thus, if you and the person next to you are both doing "salaat," but your 'salaats' look different, then one (or both) of you is wrong. That same idea can be applied across the board".
May be not in the same group, but some sects differ on the number of daily "Salaat" don t they?
So, you choose your sect?
Many have come to a conclusions that most sects have different authorities and many practice a different "Islam" .Or do you think all groups are the same?
So people choose their group according to their "Islam"understanding and instructions of GOD Alone or GOD plus other sources/authority.
Also ,"Salaat" means different things according to context and I only mean one of them here "Contact prayer.
I agree with some of what you are trying to say and I differ with the rest.. Traditional Islam has followed another authority besides GOD Alone.
And I leave it here .
Thanks for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace.