AlFathia
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Is it not a sentence beginning with prepositional phrase? And what type of sentence is it?
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/2.10a.gif
When I said start, I meant the subject of the sentence. So you believe in your example this the subject of the sentence in the verse?
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The word is in genitive case. Subject of a nominal sentence is always nominative.
Not entirely correct. Since, in Classic Arabic, unlike most modern languages, order of word arrangement is not important and subject of the sentence can be in the middle or end of the sentence. Hence, nominative case is used to point it out in these position. However, a sentence that starts with a noun is a nominal sentence and its case is not important. Please read with care Page 250 (about sentence and its parts) onward of Volume 2 of William Wright's Grammar. Nowhere, a mention of case of a noun is made if it is at the beginning. The first noun or phrase of nouns will be the subject of the given sentence. The case of first noun in the idhafee phrase depends upon relationship of the two words/nouns.
http//www.ghazali.org/arabic/WrightArabicGrammarVol2.pdf
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Not entirely correct. Since, in Classic Arabic, unlike most modern languages, order of word arrangement is not important and subject of the sentence can be in the middle or end of the sentence. Hence, nominative case is used to point it out in these position. However, a sentence that starts with a noun is a nominal sentence and its case is not important. Please read with care Page 250 (about sentence and its parts) onward of Volume 2 of William Wright's Grammar. Nowhere, a mention of case of a noun is made if it is at the beginning. The first noun or phrase of nouns will be the subject of the given sentence. The case of first noun in the idhafee phrase depends upon relationship of the two words/nouns.
http//www.ghazali.org/arabic/WrightArabicGrammarVol2.pdf
Notwithstanding order of words in a sentence, the subject wherever it is located can be identified by case ending in nominative. Wright could never say that subject of a sentence can be in genitive case.
If you think he said so cut and paste his opinion please.
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Notwithstanding order of words in a sentence, the subject wherever it is located can be identified by case ending in nominative. Wright could never say that subject of a sentence can be in genitive case.
If you think he said so cut and paste his opinion please.
Although, nowhere the case of noun subject at the beginning of a sentence is discussed by Wright in above reference. But since my objective is to stick to rules of language and usually subject is in nominative case. Hence, let me edit the translation of 11 as follows accepting that is prepositional phrase which would alleviate issue of nominative case as by default it will be considered in nominative case .
Surah 11
With nobility of One who doesn?t engage in worship comes the extreme and lasting concern for sufferings or misfortune of others.
- a preposition phrase, hence in genitive plus first part Idhafa phrase
- Idhafa phrase, plus subject of the sentence.
- Adjective phrase and Object of the sentence.
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Just a small question, Is Wright's grammar book is on Classical or Modern Standard Arabic?
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Although, nowhere the case of noun subject at the beginning of a sentence is discussed by Wright in above reference. But since my objective is to stick to rules of language and usually subject is in nominative case. Hence, let me edit the translation of 11 as follows accepting that is prepositional phrase which would alleviate issue of nominative case as by default it will be considered in nominative case .
Surah 11
With nobility of One who doesn?t engage in worship comes the extreme and lasting concern for sufferings or misfortune of others.
- a preposition phrase, hence in genitive plus first part Idhafa phrase
- Idhafa phrase, plus subject of the sentence.
- Adjective phrase and Object of the sentence.
No phrase with first noun in genitive case can be subject or predicate of a sentence. Please just read some elementary grammar book.
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No phrase with first noun in genitive case can be subject or predicate of a sentence. Please just read some elementary grammar book.
We are talking about two different situations. While it is true that usually a subject is indicated by nominative case. However, this verses has no word in nominative case. It starts off with a possessive phrase .
A possessive phrase can be used as the subject of a sentence. Correct or not? If it is a simple possessive phrase of only two nouns, usually the first noun would have a nominative case to indicate it.
However, if first part of a possessive phrase is prepositional phrase, instead of just a noun. Which is the case here in which will give its noun a genitive case. Please tell us a rule that says it should still get a nominative case despite being a prepositional phrase? Also how would one identify it as a prepositional phrase, if a nominative case was applied?
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We are talking about two different situations. While it is true that usually a subject is indicated by nominative case. However, this verses has no word in nominative case. It starts off with a possessive phrase .
A possessive phrase can be used as the subject of a sentence. Correct or not? If it is a simple possessive phrase of only two nouns, usually the first noun would have a nominative case to indicate it.
However, if first part of a possessive phrase is prepositional phrase, instead of just a noun. Which is the case here in which will give its noun a genitive case. Please tell us a rule that says it should still get a nominative case despite being a prepositional phrase? Also how would one identify it as a prepositional phrase, if a nominative case was applied?
Better study about elliptic sentence.
The object noun of a preposition is always genitive. -
The object noun of a preposition is always genitive.
Where did I say it is not. Care to provide evidence contrary to following.
However, this verses has no word in nominative case. It starts off with a possessive phrase .
A possessive phrase can be used as the subject of a sentence. Correct or not? If it is a simple possessive phrase of only two nouns, usually the first noun would have a nominative case to indicate it.
However, if first part of a possessive phrase is prepositional phrase, instead of just a noun. Which is the case here in which will give its noun a genitive case. Please tell us a rule that says it should still get a nominative case despite being a prepositional phrase? Also how would one identify it as a prepositional phrase, if a nominative case was applied?
Better study about elliptic sentence.
I already discussed, what an elliptical sentence is in modern Languages. I also cited from Wright no mention of such a sentence in Classic Arabic. Calling now this verse an elliptical sentence is at best an apologetic response in order to defend traditional wrong translation.
Regards,
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Where did I say it is not. Care to provide evidence contrary to following.
I already discussed, what an elliptical sentence is in modern Languages. I also cited from Wright no mention of such a sentence in Classic Arabic. Calling now this verse an elliptical sentence is at best an apologetic response in order to defend traditional wrong translation.Regards,
When you have accepted that it is a prepositional phrase coupled with possessive phrase, then it is not subject of sentence.
Read Wright carefully to see how could he not use elliptic. Was he so naive to forget the fact that Arabic is a pro-drop language. When words are dropped that sentence becomes elliptical.
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When you have accepted that it is a prepositional phrase coupled with possessive phrase, then it is not subject of sentence.
First of all, I have no hesitation in accepting my mistakes. My purpose is to find out the truth by understanding the text of Quran via its linguistic rules. Where rules are deficient, by applying reason and logic within the confines of these rules. Whereas, you keep shunning such reason and logic by choosing to uphold Tabari's hearsay based translation. You are also not providing any contradicting linguistics rules for the reason logic used in interpenetrating established rules to suggest that in this situation a possessive phrase can be the subject of this sentence. In the meaning while you are willing to accept Tabri's hearsay based referring to Ibne Abbas's explanation. In which he had made no reference to any linguistic rules.
Read Wright carefully to see how could he not use elliptic. Was he so naive to forget the fact that Arabic is a pro-drop language. When words are dropped that sentence becomes elliptical.
Wright has written nothing of his own. His book is the most comprehensive translation of Grammar rules written by Arabs into English. In reference part 2 above, he has translated several categories of sentences in Classic Arabic. But no category of an elliptical sentence or its rule are mentioned. Anyone can verify this from above posted link. Finally, readers are free not to agree with me or my translation. But at least accept the evidence of rules presented or negate it with rules.
Last but not the least, if you have taken any formal Arabic classes. Most teachers will say that for all rules there is and can be an exception and all shall keep a window of exception open in their minds. Whereas, by implying that subject of sentence has to be always in nominative case, aren't you closing that window in your mind?
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You are also not providing any contradicting linguistics rules for the reason logic used in interpenetrating established rules to suggest that in this situation a possessive phrase can be the subject of this sentence. In the meaning while you are willing to accept Tabri's hearsay based referring to Ibne Abbas's explanation. In which he had made no reference to any linguistic rules.
My emphasis is totally contrary; I loudly say that there is NOT a single work on Qur'an done according to academic rules and principles. Tabri is no exception.
Possessive phrase can be the subject of a sentence but only when it is in nominative case.
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Wright has written nothing of his own. His book is the most comprehensive translation of Grammar rules written by Arabs into English. In reference part 2 above, he has translated several categories of sentences in Classic Arabic. But no category of an elliptical sentence or its rule are mentioned. Anyone can verify this from above posted link. Finally, readers are free not to agree with me or my translation. But at least accept the evidence of rules presented or negate it with rules.
Last but not the least, if you have taken any formal Arabic classes. Most teachers will say that for all rules there is and can be an exception and all shall keep a window of exception open in their minds. Whereas, by implying that subject of sentence has to be always in nominative case, aren't you closing that window in your mind?
Just explain what you consider or perceive when I say "elliptical sentence". In English which sentence is termed elliptical?
Caution If you understand not elliptical sentence, you will keep wandering because a very large number of sentences in Qur'aan are elliptical.
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Just explain what you consider or perceive when I say "elliptical sentence". In English which sentence is termed elliptical?
This is how an elliptical sentence is defined in English.
"An elliptical sentence refers to sentences with information missing. This form does not require an ellipsis. These sentences are grammatically correct only if the necessary information to understand the sentence has been supplied previously or is clear from the context of the sentence. As you will see from the examples below, written English would look quite strange if every elliptical sentence had an ellipsis in it."
http//www.freeworldu.org/static/grammar/ellipticalsentences.aspx.
What is an ellipse?
" the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues.
a set of dots indicating an ellipsis."
https//www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=opC_Wr-1HrC8tgWA4LKIBg&q=what+is+ellipsis&oq=what+is+ellipsis&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l10.1360.7680.0.10114.17.16.0.0.0.0.180.1150.15j1.16.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.16.1148.0..35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i263k1.0.h51GxUzbhls -
My emphasis is totally contrary; I loudly say that there is NOT a single work on Qur'an done according to academic rules and principles. Tabri is no exception.
You say above yet you insist upon following. Which is consistent with upholding Tabari's translation as true and real by bringing superfluous explanations or in technical terms creating theodasies to support held beliefs, instead of re-evaluating and rejecting held beliefs, if evidence is found against held beliefs.
Possessive phrase can be the subject of a sentence but only when it is in nominative case.
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You say above yet you insist upon following. Which is consistent with upholding Tabari's translation as true and real by bringing superfluous explanations or in technical terms creating theodasies to support held beliefs, instead of re-evaluating and rejecting held beliefs, if evidence is found against held beliefs.
When something doesnt' come to your mind, you start talking nonsense.
Not a single point you are able to rebut yet insist to accept your baseless interpretation.
You quoted in red, but you are not noticing the qualification---must be in nominative case.
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This is how an elliptical sentence is defined in English.
"An elliptical sentence refers to sentences with information missing. This form does not require an ellipsis. These sentences are grammatically correct only if the necessary information to understand the sentence has been supplied previously or is clear from the context of the sentence. As you will see from the examples below, written English would look quite strange if every elliptical sentence had an ellipsis in it."
http//www.freeworldu.org/static/grammar/ellipticalsentences.aspx.
What is an ellipse?
" the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues.
a set of dots indicating an ellipsis."
https//www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=opC_Wr-1HrC8tgWA4LKIBg&q=what+is+ellipsis&oq=what+is+ellipsis&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l10.1360.7680.0.10114.17.16.0.0.0.0.180.1150.15j1.16.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.16.1148.0..35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i263k1.0.h51GxUzbhlsCare to respond to above facts about elliptical sentences? How does this verse fits into this definition?
