AlFathia
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Just a small question, Is Wright's grammar book is on Classical or Modern Standard Arabic?
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Although, nowhere the case of noun subject at the beginning of a sentence is discussed by Wright in above reference. But since my objective is to stick to rules of language and usually subject is in nominative case. Hence, let me edit the translation of 11 as follows accepting that is prepositional phrase which would alleviate issue of nominative case as by default it will be considered in nominative case .
Surah 11
With nobility of One who doesn?t engage in worship comes the extreme and lasting concern for sufferings or misfortune of others.
- a preposition phrase, hence in genitive plus first part Idhafa phrase
- Idhafa phrase, plus subject of the sentence.
- Adjective phrase and Object of the sentence.
No phrase with first noun in genitive case can be subject or predicate of a sentence. Please just read some elementary grammar book.
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No phrase with first noun in genitive case can be subject or predicate of a sentence. Please just read some elementary grammar book.
We are talking about two different situations. While it is true that usually a subject is indicated by nominative case. However, this verses has no word in nominative case. It starts off with a possessive phrase .
A possessive phrase can be used as the subject of a sentence. Correct or not? If it is a simple possessive phrase of only two nouns, usually the first noun would have a nominative case to indicate it.
However, if first part of a possessive phrase is prepositional phrase, instead of just a noun. Which is the case here in which will give its noun a genitive case. Please tell us a rule that says it should still get a nominative case despite being a prepositional phrase? Also how would one identify it as a prepositional phrase, if a nominative case was applied?
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We are talking about two different situations. While it is true that usually a subject is indicated by nominative case. However, this verses has no word in nominative case. It starts off with a possessive phrase .
A possessive phrase can be used as the subject of a sentence. Correct or not? If it is a simple possessive phrase of only two nouns, usually the first noun would have a nominative case to indicate it.
However, if first part of a possessive phrase is prepositional phrase, instead of just a noun. Which is the case here in which will give its noun a genitive case. Please tell us a rule that says it should still get a nominative case despite being a prepositional phrase? Also how would one identify it as a prepositional phrase, if a nominative case was applied?
Better study about elliptic sentence.
The object noun of a preposition is always genitive. -
The object noun of a preposition is always genitive.
Where did I say it is not. Care to provide evidence contrary to following.
However, this verses has no word in nominative case. It starts off with a possessive phrase .
A possessive phrase can be used as the subject of a sentence. Correct or not? If it is a simple possessive phrase of only two nouns, usually the first noun would have a nominative case to indicate it.
However, if first part of a possessive phrase is prepositional phrase, instead of just a noun. Which is the case here in which will give its noun a genitive case. Please tell us a rule that says it should still get a nominative case despite being a prepositional phrase? Also how would one identify it as a prepositional phrase, if a nominative case was applied?
Better study about elliptic sentence.
I already discussed, what an elliptical sentence is in modern Languages. I also cited from Wright no mention of such a sentence in Classic Arabic. Calling now this verse an elliptical sentence is at best an apologetic response in order to defend traditional wrong translation.
Regards,
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Where did I say it is not. Care to provide evidence contrary to following.
I already discussed, what an elliptical sentence is in modern Languages. I also cited from Wright no mention of such a sentence in Classic Arabic. Calling now this verse an elliptical sentence is at best an apologetic response in order to defend traditional wrong translation.Regards,
When you have accepted that it is a prepositional phrase coupled with possessive phrase, then it is not subject of sentence.
Read Wright carefully to see how could he not use elliptic. Was he so naive to forget the fact that Arabic is a pro-drop language. When words are dropped that sentence becomes elliptical.
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When you have accepted that it is a prepositional phrase coupled with possessive phrase, then it is not subject of sentence.
First of all, I have no hesitation in accepting my mistakes. My purpose is to find out the truth by understanding the text of Quran via its linguistic rules. Where rules are deficient, by applying reason and logic within the confines of these rules. Whereas, you keep shunning such reason and logic by choosing to uphold Tabari's hearsay based translation. You are also not providing any contradicting linguistics rules for the reason logic used in interpenetrating established rules to suggest that in this situation a possessive phrase can be the subject of this sentence. In the meaning while you are willing to accept Tabri's hearsay based referring to Ibne Abbas's explanation. In which he had made no reference to any linguistic rules.
Read Wright carefully to see how could he not use elliptic. Was he so naive to forget the fact that Arabic is a pro-drop language. When words are dropped that sentence becomes elliptical.
Wright has written nothing of his own. His book is the most comprehensive translation of Grammar rules written by Arabs into English. In reference part 2 above, he has translated several categories of sentences in Classic Arabic. But no category of an elliptical sentence or its rule are mentioned. Anyone can verify this from above posted link. Finally, readers are free not to agree with me or my translation. But at least accept the evidence of rules presented or negate it with rules.
Last but not the least, if you have taken any formal Arabic classes. Most teachers will say that for all rules there is and can be an exception and all shall keep a window of exception open in their minds. Whereas, by implying that subject of sentence has to be always in nominative case, aren't you closing that window in your mind?
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You are also not providing any contradicting linguistics rules for the reason logic used in interpenetrating established rules to suggest that in this situation a possessive phrase can be the subject of this sentence. In the meaning while you are willing to accept Tabri's hearsay based referring to Ibne Abbas's explanation. In which he had made no reference to any linguistic rules.
My emphasis is totally contrary; I loudly say that there is NOT a single work on Qur'an done according to academic rules and principles. Tabri is no exception.
Possessive phrase can be the subject of a sentence but only when it is in nominative case.
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Wright has written nothing of his own. His book is the most comprehensive translation of Grammar rules written by Arabs into English. In reference part 2 above, he has translated several categories of sentences in Classic Arabic. But no category of an elliptical sentence or its rule are mentioned. Anyone can verify this from above posted link. Finally, readers are free not to agree with me or my translation. But at least accept the evidence of rules presented or negate it with rules.
Last but not the least, if you have taken any formal Arabic classes. Most teachers will say that for all rules there is and can be an exception and all shall keep a window of exception open in their minds. Whereas, by implying that subject of sentence has to be always in nominative case, aren't you closing that window in your mind?
Just explain what you consider or perceive when I say "elliptical sentence". In English which sentence is termed elliptical?
Caution If you understand not elliptical sentence, you will keep wandering because a very large number of sentences in Qur'aan are elliptical.
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Just explain what you consider or perceive when I say "elliptical sentence". In English which sentence is termed elliptical?
This is how an elliptical sentence is defined in English.
"An elliptical sentence refers to sentences with information missing. This form does not require an ellipsis. These sentences are grammatically correct only if the necessary information to understand the sentence has been supplied previously or is clear from the context of the sentence. As you will see from the examples below, written English would look quite strange if every elliptical sentence had an ellipsis in it."
http//www.freeworldu.org/static/grammar/ellipticalsentences.aspx.
What is an ellipse?
" the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues.
a set of dots indicating an ellipsis."
https//www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=opC_Wr-1HrC8tgWA4LKIBg&q=what+is+ellipsis&oq=what+is+ellipsis&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l10.1360.7680.0.10114.17.16.0.0.0.0.180.1150.15j1.16.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.16.1148.0..35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i263k1.0.h51GxUzbhls -
My emphasis is totally contrary; I loudly say that there is NOT a single work on Qur'an done according to academic rules and principles. Tabri is no exception.
You say above yet you insist upon following. Which is consistent with upholding Tabari's translation as true and real by bringing superfluous explanations or in technical terms creating theodasies to support held beliefs, instead of re-evaluating and rejecting held beliefs, if evidence is found against held beliefs.
Possessive phrase can be the subject of a sentence but only when it is in nominative case.
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You say above yet you insist upon following. Which is consistent with upholding Tabari's translation as true and real by bringing superfluous explanations or in technical terms creating theodasies to support held beliefs, instead of re-evaluating and rejecting held beliefs, if evidence is found against held beliefs.
When something doesnt' come to your mind, you start talking nonsense.
Not a single point you are able to rebut yet insist to accept your baseless interpretation.
You quoted in red, but you are not noticing the qualification---must be in nominative case.
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This is how an elliptical sentence is defined in English.
"An elliptical sentence refers to sentences with information missing. This form does not require an ellipsis. These sentences are grammatically correct only if the necessary information to understand the sentence has been supplied previously or is clear from the context of the sentence. As you will see from the examples below, written English would look quite strange if every elliptical sentence had an ellipsis in it."
http//www.freeworldu.org/static/grammar/ellipticalsentences.aspx.
What is an ellipse?
" the omission from speech or writing of a word or words that are superfluous or able to be understood from contextual clues.
a set of dots indicating an ellipsis."
https//www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=opC_Wr-1HrC8tgWA4LKIBg&q=what+is+ellipsis&oq=what+is+ellipsis&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0l10.1360.7680.0.10114.17.16.0.0.0.0.180.1150.15j1.16.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.16.1148.0..35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i263k1.0.h51GxUzbhlsCare to respond to above facts about elliptical sentences? How does this verse fits into this definition?
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Care to respond to above facts about elliptical sentences? How does this verse fits into this definition?
From my website http//haqeeqat.pk/Word%20by%20Word.htm
Elisions
It is made explicit at the very outset of the Divine Discourse that Arabic is a pro-drop language. Taking care of elisions in the source text and incorporating it in target language text are important to correctly convey the perception embedded therein. Ellipses at the sentence level is distinguished from other types of omissions by the condition of recoverability. The basic principle of ellipsis is that nothing can be omitted unless it can be recovered. Recoverability is the essential condition put forward by Arab grammarians for ellipsis. Ellipsis is not allowed if there are no indicators to help the addressee to identify the elided elements.
Since Grand Qur?n is for the humanity, its first audience were the people of Mecca and surrounding localities. Further, while reading Grand Qur?n, it must be kept in mind that it was gradually-intermittently revealed to the Messenger who then communicated it to the people of those days. Therefore, while conveying an Ayah?unitary verbal passage wherein some element is elided, it was so because it was already in their knowledge and they were quite familiar about it. Its mentioning would have cost redundancy.
Arabs dislike using larger quantity of words and like to convey voluminous information by employing minimum words. It also reflects that the Arabic language regards its listener and reader as a responsible, attentive and intelligent person who focuses his listening and perception faculties on that which is being stated. Thus the placing of words which could compromise the literary par excellence of the text along with offence to the first listeners, it is elided. The elisions are conspicuous by grammatical structures; and for the readers of later time-frame the semantics of the elided element are also mentioned at another place with repetition of key words in the elliptical sentences.
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The first sentence of Qur'an is visibly ecliptic since it has neither subject noun and predicate which are necessary parts of nominal sentence; nor it has verb and object which are parts of a verbal sentence.
It is clear from the contents of the sentence that it is elliptical.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/001.%20Al%20Fateha/1.01a.gif
Elided Verb The elevated Messenger of Allah the Exalted pronounced
"Ar'Reh'maan the Personal Name of Allah the Exalted is the recourse.
Ar'Reh'maan is eternally the Fountain of Infinite Mercy".
Pl find time to read detailed analysis
Ayah 11 Analysis
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From my website http//haqeeqat.pk/Word%20by%20Word.htm
Elisions
It is made explicit at the very outset of the Divine Discourse that Arabic is a pro-drop language. Taking care of elisions in the source text and incorporating it in target language text are important to correctly convey the perception embedded therein. Ellipses at the sentence level is distinguished from other types of omissions by the condition of recoverability. The basic principle of ellipsis is that nothing can be omitted unless it can be recovered. Recoverability is the essential condition put forward by Arab grammarians for ellipsis. Ellipsis is not allowed if there are no indicators to help the addressee to identify the elided elements.
Since Grand Qur?n is for the humanity, its first audience were the people of Mecca and surrounding localities. Further, while reading Grand Qur?n, it must be kept in mind that it was gradually-intermittently revealed to the Messenger who then communicated it to the people of those days. Therefore, while conveying an Ayah?unitary verbal passage wherein some element is elided, it was so because it was already in their knowledge and they were quite familiar about it. Its mentioning would have cost redundancy.
Arabs dislike using larger quantity of words and like to convey voluminous information by employing minimum words. It also reflects that the Arabic language regards its listener and reader as a responsible, attentive and intelligent person who focuses his listening and perception faculties on that which is being stated. Thus the placing of words which could compromise the literary par excellence of the text along with offence to the first listeners, it is elided. The elisions are conspicuous by grammatical structures; and for the readers of later time-frame the semantics of the elided element are also mentioned at another place with repetition of key words in the elliptical sentences.
............
The first sentence of Qur'an is visibly ecliptic since it has neither subject noun and predicate which are necessary parts of nominal sentence; nor it has verb and object which are parts of a verbal sentence.
It is clear from the contents of the sentence that it is elliptical.
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/001.%20Al%20Fateha/1.01a.gif
Elided Verb The elevated Messenger of Allah the Exalted pronounced
"Ar'Reh'maan the Personal Name of Allah the Exalted is the recourse.
Ar'Reh'maan is eternally the Fountain of Infinite Mercy".
Pl find time to read detailed analysis
Ayah 11 Analysis
Is it above not all based upon tradition? Please remove yourself for a minute from all these traditions of prophet pronouncing it, etc. Look at this verse just as text of any book. A person without this traditional knowledge reading it, how he is supposed to understand it?
Let me capture this discussion in few sentences.
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You claimed the verse 11 to be an elliptical sentence. I have provided you the concept of elliptical sentence from English with references. Which clearly says "a sentence could be elliptical only if the information elided is already provided to listeners". You can't show this to be the case with this verse. Instead you keep reverting to traditional accounts. Which is what Tabri's translation is all about. Although, you deny defending it, but in practice this is exactly what you keep doing.
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You are unable to point a reference from most Authentic translation of Arabic grammar rules book by William Wright any mention of a category of Elliptical sentence or its definition and rules. Which implies that Arabs who wrote grammar rules had no clue about elliptical sentences. Yet, you insist upon this verse as an elliptical sentence.
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You keep rejecting all reason and logic based deductions within confines of established rules suggesting that this possessive phrase should be considered as Subject of the sentence despite lack of nominative case, since its first part is a prepositional phrase necessitating use of genitive case. However, you give no counter reason and logic, except saying that subject of a sentence has to be always in nominative. This also I have not found to be the case in such explicit and strict terms in Wright. If I have missed anything in this regards you please point it out to me from Wright that a Subject has to be always in nominative and no exceptions.
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Which clearly says "a sentence could be elliptical only if the information elided is already provided to listeners".
Your problem is that you read one and the same thing differently whenever you respond.
Earlier you said
This is how an elliptical sentence is defined in English.
"An elliptical sentence refers to sentences with information missing. This form does not require an ellipsis. These sentences are grammatically correct only if the necessary information to understand the sentence has been supplied previously or is clear from the context of the sentence. As you will see from the examples below, written English would look quite strange if every elliptical sentence had an ellipsis in it."
I told you it is evident from the fact of absence of subject and predicate in the Ayah that it is elliptical sentence. All words of the Ayah are in genitive case, and words in genitive case are neither subject nor predicate.
Did you read this in my post
The basic principle of ellipsis is that nothing can be omitted unless it can be recovered. Recover-ability is the essential condition put forward by Arab grammarians for ellipsis. Ellipsis is not allowed if there are no indicators to help the addressee to identify the elided elements.
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However, you give no counter reason and logic, except saying that subject of a sentence has to be always in nominative. This also I have not found to be the case in such explicit and strict terms in Wright.
Try reading Wright with little wide open eyes. In all references of sentences you will see subject in nominative case.
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The basic principle of ellipsis is that nothing can be omitted unless it can be recovered. Recover-ability is the essential condition put forward by Arab grammarians for ellipsis. Ellipsis is not allowed if there are no indicators to help the addressee to identify the elided elements.
Please share from this verse the indicators within this verse that can help the addresses to identify elided elements from this verse?
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Please share from this verse the indicators within this verse that can help the addresses to identify elided elements from this verse?
It means you have not glanced through the link I gave about analysis of Ayah.
These two words constitute the first grammatical unit . It comprises of a Prepositional Phrase + Possessive Phrase. The learned grammarians lay the principle that a Prepositional Phrase in Arabic is neither the Subject nor the predicate of a sentence. It relates to either. Therefore, a verb-verbal noun is understood and conveniently estimated before this phrase. We need a citation for a statement. A written word or a statement is firstly spoken by someone; thereby it is reiterated in time and space. We know the Person who orally and in writing communicated the Parlance?the Discourse?verbal Message of Allah the Exalted that we are reading and trying to translate and comprehend in target language English. Therefore, the elided Verb before the statement of universal import that can most appropriately be estimated is "Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam, the elevated Messenger of Allah the Exalted Pronounced that------". The structure of sentence is simple and is of declarative type.
This sentence of Ayah also occurs second time which facilitates understanding it as relating to predicate of verb like particle
Indeed it is sent by Suleiman?and it preludes?
"Ar'Reh'maan the Personal Name of Allah the Exalted is the recourse ?Who is eternally the Fountain of Infinite Mercy".
