Hafs or Warsh
-
exactly handshake
people who are experts in math can atleast see this clearly .. on the other hand a person who is unaware about math cant understand what is the purpose of algebra, integration, matrix, geometry, calculus , when we are solving them in book we dnt really understand what is the purpose of doing it but .. infact all that we see(around us from buildings to toys) is based on pure mathematics . and 19 number theory has nothing to do with simple math.
what we get from 19? its the only question i havnt got any satisfactory answer so far..
-
what we get from 19? its the only question i havnt got any satisfactory answer so far..
Peace, it's nonsense (19 is a prime like 11, 29, etc.,) verses were not revealed with verse numbers.
891 and/by the dawn
892 and the nights ten
893 and the even and the odd- scribes used an odd-even system to keep count like an accounting ledger
- old manuscripts clearly had different counts using same text and system
- initially chapters alif lam meem etc., not counted as separate verses
- changed ~100 years afterwards using the same "text" odd-even system
- system had an odd-even balance symmetry which is easily accomplished
see examples chapter 8 with 2 extra verses (877) not 875 -- large dot end 10 verses marker.
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/71/handschrift/13http//oi63.tinypic.com/29gha8w.jpg
Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France Arabe 331
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/71?handschrift=32http//oi63.tinypic.com/6xvlmq.jpg
-
Confirmation 4 old manuscripts ch 8 was 77 verses (2 extra, same script) not 75 like today.
Basically verses 836 and 842 were split into two see manuscripts posted above and below.
Cambridge, Cambridge University Library Add. 1125
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/36?handschrift=282836 indeed the ones reject they of spending wealth theirs to hinder they of about path the god so shall spending they it furthermore being upon them regret furthermore conquered/defeated being (end verse)
(Start new verse) wa-alladhna/and the ones reject they of to abyss gathered being
http//oi65.tinypic.com/e6b19e.jpg
Cambridge, Cambridge University Library Add. 1125
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/8/vers/42?handschrift=282842 when are you in the enemy the world and they in the enemy the top and the caravan below among you and in case made appointment you surely divergences/fails you in the promise and however to decreed the god directive of be fulfilled of (end verse)
(Start new verse) liyahlika/that destroyed whom perished about clear proof and yahya who live about clear proof and indeed the god surely hearer knower
http//oi64.tinypic.com/2qlqqt0.jpg
-
Doesn't these so called "versions" completely involved dialects & the diacritic marks? Wouldn't be surprised if it did.
-
Doesn't these so called "versions" completely involved dialects & the diacritic marks? Wouldn't be surprised if it did.
Peace, above posts are mostly about oldest manuscripts having different verse numbering system.
There are also minor disagreements in spelling, dialectical marks etc. hence warsh/hafs nonsense.
-
Peace, above posts are mostly about oldest manuscripts having different verse numbering system.
There are also minor disagreements in spelling, dialectical marks etc. hence warsh/hafs nonsense.
Yeah even the claim of Aramiac language against the Qur'an.
-
Peace All.
This question will remain no matter how many manuscripts you study, or they differ in spelling and numbering
Which copy is the original copy of the prophet? Evidence?As for probabilities, Mathematics is the only Science that can give 100% proof.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Which copy is the original copy of the prophet? Evidence
copy from rk
evidence is verses of chap nine is added later and the numbering is checked by 19 formula.unique aspects of formula i think just one is enough to believe
it never changes the pattern/method/style
wishful thinking works and make you feel happy.happiness is all what we can get from it. and i think one whos happy is richest person in
this world.i just dnt understand why people beat around the bush.
and i want to break something but no hard feelings
i ve seen the debates between the pillars of number nineteen vs two blessed minds guys like noon and ayman. both of you knock these pillars out and audience saw it how strategically they change their sides giving no answer whatsoever. still they want debate at that time we have quality debates atleast.but now to b honest the nineteen followers have issues with their own simple original mathematics rotfl atleast some comedy is going on here
number 19 is a big joke of nineteenth century but sometimes jokes take the life of people moral some jokes are dangerous specially number jokes lol
-
i think atleast 1000000 or more versions of quran being generated by people but
from one master copy
which master copy ? million dollar question but a tricky one coz a speech when recorded with pen take a form of book thats also happened with quran so question crumbles itself here anyway lets go with traditional history.
the better copy overtake the original copy in start( ) destroyed or may b saved somewhere.
then more versins of quran with vocal marks.
then more verision with dots.
then more versions with numberings confused
khalifa copy was best copy in numbering field becoz he ws the first one who proved from hadith about the tempring of quran what a great copy
after lot of version frim ONE copy with different man made things started getting popular
and then two big investors with names warsh/hafz captured the printing rights of quran as we know it was always a best sellerhafz/warsh sime more version and then more verision under the license of these two big market captures
-
i think atleast 1000000 or more versions of quran being generated by people but
from one master copy
which master copy ? million dollar question but a tricky one coz a speech when recorded with pen take a form of book thats also happened with quran so question crumbles itself here anyway lets go with traditional history.
the better copy overtake the original copy in start( ) destroyed or may b saved somewhere.
then more versins of quran with vocal marks.
then more verision with dots.
then more versions with numberings confused
khalifa copy was best copy in numbering field becoz he ws the first one who proved from hadith about the tempring of quran what a great copy
after lot of version frim ONE copy with different man made things started getting popular
and then two big investors with names warsh/hafz captured the printing rights of quran as we know it was always a best sellerhafz/warsh sime more version and then more verision under the license of these two big market captures
5677 انه لقرءان كريم
Innahu laqur-anun kareemun
It is an honorable Qur'an.5678 فى كتاب مكنون
Fee kitabin maknoonin
In a protected Book.8521 بل هو قرءان مجيد
Bal huwa qur-anun majeedun
No,it is a glorious Qur'an.8522 فى لوح محفوظ
Fee lawhin mahfoothin
In a tablet, preserved. -
Peace Imran.
I keep it simple here.
1-So you will never know which copy was sent originally. Are you satisfied with that? Only there will always be doubt with your method.
2- So GOD has not preserved the original copy?3-Why would "the future belong to GOD, wait..." mean to you? Are you still waiting for something about Qoran?
4- The "witness from Beni Israeel" has seen a similar phenomenon in "Tawrat". That was also a numerically structured book.
Or in your opinion who was this "witness from Beni Israeel" and what did he witness?
...Let us leave it at this simple stage for now.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
4- The "witness from Beni Israeel" has seen a similar phenomenon in "Tawrat". That was also a numerically structured book.
peace, "context is your friend" refers to witness at that time about revelation not numerology.
1226 said she sought to seduce me about myself and witness witness from family hers if be shirt his torn from front so sincere she and he of the liars
469-10 say not am I innovation of among the messengers and not knows I what doeth with me and not with you indeed follows only what inspired to me and not I am except warner clear say have seen you if be/is from near/with the god and reject you in it and witness witness from sons/children Israel on similitude it so believes (he) and acts arrogant you? indeed the god not guided the folk the wrongdoers
-
Peace Noon.
I think even you know that the similarity of the two revelations here is in the numerical composition, why
1- Who is this witness?
2- What did he witness to be similar?My take is the witness is Rabbi Judah the Pious (11th Century A.D.), who discovered the same 19-based mathematical code in intact fragments of the Jewish scripture ( NOTE The subject of 4610 is saying "What if it is from GOD.." some sort of clear proof that Qoran is from GOD?!)
You give me your take on it(4610?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I do not know whether it was in this thread or another, somebody said that there are may be 20 different versions of the Qur'an.
My questions which are those versions and what do the differences consist of?
Are any of those versions contradictory to one another?
Like a poster in another forum ferences, between hafs and warsh are very slight, like a synonym instead of another syninym, which give different nuances but which basically do not alter the fundamntal meaning.
So can anybody here quote two different versions of Qur'an, arabic Qur'an which differ to the point of being contradictory?
Salaam
-
Sister huruf, that is a very good point. And I agree that the differences are not impacting on the context . GOD s message is in all of them intact.
Nevertheless ,GOD has answered those who claim there are differences ,hence it is not from GOD.
It is clear there are verses in Qoran that point to GOD s design and perfection. GOD has sent words and preserved them in a master tablet. GOD has then issued a challenge in Qoran(In words and numerical composition) to those who still argue Qoran is not from GOD.
Of course there are also those who know /claim it is from GOD but refuse to accept the "number composition", claiming it is coincidence. GOD also knows this, that why the verses are there in Qoran.
All GOD is saying to all of us is that His scripture is "perfect and planned". GOD does not do errors. coincidence or mishaps.
GOD is perfect and does not err.
Those who listen to the message, accept it and apply it in their life do not have to worry about numbers or differences. Our minimum salvation depends on our deeds and intentions.
Fro me the instinct inside me is shouting this Qoran(When I read/study it) is from GOD regardless of numbers, proofs or differences in mushafs.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Thank you, good logic,
I agree with you on what we shoud do with the Qur'an.In my previous post I forgot to mention, that this friend poster I am referring too also said, that in fact those differences are provided by God Himself inthe sense that we may take it either way or both ways or the different ways which ay be complementary.
Reminds me of two translations of ra'uf into Spanish, one was a bit surprising, but looking at it carefully you realised that it was a nuance that might be lost int the other translation although on the whole the latter could be better or more to the point. But without that other more "surprising" translation in fact the reader was missing something.
As to numbers, myself I do not have any trouble believing that there is a numerical pattern in Qur'an, in fact I would be surprised if there was not. I mean, it is God, which computer in the highest fever could match that? Did He not create numbers and all ways of knowledge?
When it comes to which pattern is there in Qur'an, there may be many not just one. I do not know.
I do not have any quarrel with anybody attempting to find any pattern.
On the other hand I see in it a danger, which is the same danger I see when people try to pin on the Qur'an the latest (at that point) scientific knowledge. It can only be tentative. Knowledge evolves continually and we may tie the Qur'an to something which the Qur'an does not tie itself too, and that ends up turning people against Qur'an because a later knowledge goes against the previous knowledge and the pin the Qur'an to that previous knowledge.
I am sure the Qur'an is scientifically correct, but I doubt very much that we or when we do get it right from the Qur'an, because we are already molded to a previous knowledge and we impose this knowledge ont he Qur'an but we do not extract it from it. or we may feel enthusiastical about some theory and pin it on the Qur'an but in fact it may not be such a great theory after some time. We do not have to tie the Qur'an. We may count on it or get ideas from it, but e should not tie to our ork with such ideas. Qur'an is not there to teach science but to teach us to love knowledge, beauty and truth. The rest is for us to go through our different yihads.
Salaam
-
Yes sister huruf. Agreed.
There may be other secrets to come from Qoran in future. God s words do not run out.I know my brothers and sisters here are discussing in good spirit and fairly.
I hope ,at least those who know me from what I say ,are not taking my words as hostile ,personal or as idolising numbers or Qoran or anything other than my LORD Alone. I am stating my opinion and what I see.
I also look at what others say, if I failed to see their point of view it is not because I ignore what they say, but because, like them, I have not agreed with their opinion.
I do not see anything written by others as hostiles or against me personally. It is their right of expression like I have mine.In the end, it is what we get from Qoran and how we lead our life that is a priority.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
@ sister huruf
calculations and mathematics is a fact and yeh God is the creator of mathematics and the formulas of all mathematical issues are generated by God for humans.
But in all of it we need to understand the math of God is not = math of human
when the followers of RK will understand this thing they will understand the real mathso i agree with you the math of God is not only in quran but in everyfield of life math and calculations exist example if you try to built a building with wrong calculation the building will fell down same thing happen with the code believers prophet rk his wrong math took his life what a poor boy lol.
about the versions of quran even the article on freeminds got discrepencies in it the first time i read the hafs/warsh bullshit i lost my interest in it coz he was saying the numbered bismillah is the method of checkin its hafs or warsh. but to b honest the person research is weak in very fields like we already knows the earliest manuscripts proved therez nothing like numbering and vocal and chap names there. so again i ll say bring all versions and see the difference in words and meanings and then compare all of them together to see how many different qurans we have. and if u add all those later version by diff publishers u ll have atleast 10000 versions ( but from one speech) who claimed to have that speech from the creator of universe.
@ GL you need to read three four times to really understand what i was on about
about real quran and real human we go back to time to see things how they get evolved.
you are asking me about original copy sorry to say i dnt have an access to God supercomputer where that copy is saved in whatever language or communications style.about this quran what we reading today generated from a speech not from numbers so speech is to consider while finding a difference not numbers.
now you tell me by erasing some parts of speech adding numbers in to make a statement on the behalf of secondary sources makes a quran original ?
see my two years old post in which i told u how things get evolve quran also evolved by man made things and these man made made things are for every individual
even in school we provided by a same book but every student book is different than others by their own addings and highlighting with the help of pencil/pen to make that book understand.
silly questions always generate silly answers
all code beleivers answers about real math is silly and their questions are silly too which make a real mathematician feel funny same what i feel.the only question from me is why your prophet(rk)never knew all aspects of his own miracle muscle and he change his pattern consistently.
example look what he did with algebra elektro hail rotfl yay
double multiple of 19 AKA square of 19 hahaha to fit the calaculation in a way he wanted wtf hahahaha
he raped algebra by his stupidity
God bless you always.
-
Imran. I understand you The number composition gets on your nerve.
But I disagree with you. I do not follow RK or any human. I am checking everything myself.
May be your maths is so advanced you probably think I will not understand it since you have not provided it.
All I have seen in your posts is your opinion agreeing with others . Does that mean you follow others?
I hope you see what I am saying to you also.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
There is proverb, portuguese, I think, which says
God writes straight with twisted lines
Which I find it is another way of saying "everything is for good", even bad is for good, it depends on what we do with it.
And there is also a sufi tale whcih says a cheikh told a disciple to take a formidable stone and put it on the top of the mountain close by.
Years spent the disciple and did not get the damned stone even beyond close to the bottom and he complained the cheikh about his powerlessness to do what he was told.
The cheikh smiled (the bastard) and retorted
And who needs that stone on top of that mountain? Nobody,
But look at yourself, you were flimsy, without any stamina, no muscle no nothing. And look at yourself, you are strong, capable, disciplined, master of yourself...
There is your mountain which you have conquered.More or less, that is the gist of it.
Everything is for good. Even the useless is for good. Even mistakes are for good. We may be wrong but those wrongs are always the opportunity for something right we had not even imagined. Everywhere is God's kingdom, there is no where that it is not God's kingdom. Wherever we turn there is the face of God. God is the master teacher and wonder worker and shower.
We should not refrain from doing what we consider a good idea for fear of not being right. We will get something right even if it is not what we expected. Those are the gifts of God for our trust in life, in existence, in the ONE MIRACLE which is everything.
So numbers may be wrong, may be right, may be both, but if we trust that numbers will bring us something, God will give us our numbers, the lucky ones for us.
Subhanallah and alhamdulillah
Salaam
