Hafs or Warsh

good_logic

Peace Noon.
The old manuscript has errors same as other manuscripts and you know that.
That old manuscript is not the original just like you are claiming other manuscripts with T H as a separate verse are not.

You provide evidence it is the original copy and you will have a point.
If on the other hand you are claiming T H are not initials then provide their meaning?

Are you sure you do not see the problem?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Imran.
Should it not be the other way around?
You provide ,with evidence, the original copy of the prophet with 128 and 129 in surah 9 in it and the matter will close.
Much simpler for you.
If on the other hand you say the high probability is that majority of mushafs contain 128 and 129,then I say the mathematical structure has a 100% probability that they do not.
Yours against mine?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Noon_waalqalami

The old manuscript has errors same as other manuscripts and you know that.

peace, here are three of the oldest manuscripts -- show errors?

201 ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an to thou discontent

University of Birmingham radiocarbon dated 568-645 CE (95.4%)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281

Ma VI 165 University of T?bingen radiocarbon dated 649-675 CE (95.4%)
~1800 verses 1735 - 3657 (~28% of total text)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/107

Berlin State Library radiocarbon dated 662-765 CE (95.4%)
~85% of total text Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=163

good_logic

Peace Noon.
I could also ask you to show an error here

Many other Mushafs show a clear pause. There are two verses.
Old manuscript does not mean correct manuscript without errors. Unless of course one can bring evidence it is the original copy.
Or are you assuming old manuscripts have no errors?
This is one good reason why a mathematical structure will solve it 100%.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Noon_waalqalami

Many other Mushafs show a clear pause. There are two verses.

Peace, show one earlier than 200+ years after revelation? (BTW, posting for benefit of others)

Birmingham, Cadbury Research Library dated 568-645 CE (95.4%)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=281
201-2 (single verse) ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an that thou agonize
T?bingen, Universit?tsbibliothek Ma VI 165 dated 649-675 CE (95.4%)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/107
201-2 (single verse) ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an that thou agonize
Berlin, Staatsbibliothek Wetzstein II 1913 (Ahlwardt 305) 662-765 CE (95.4%)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1/handschrift/163
201-2 (single verse) ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an that thou agonize

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=163
421-3 (single verse) ha meem ayn seen qaf like such inspired to you and toward the ones from before you the god the mighty the wise

Gotthelf-Bergstr??er-Archiv "Saray Medina 1a" Istanbul, Topkap Saray before 800 CE?
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=56
201-2 (single verse) ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an that thou agonize

https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=56
421-3 (single verse) ha meem ayn seen qaf like such inspired to you and toward the ones from before you the god the mighty the wise

Kodex Samarkand (Faksimiledruck Sankt Petersburg 1905) 700-850 CE
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/20/vers/1?handschrift=141
201-2 (single verse) ta ha not descends we of upon you the qur?an that thou agonize
Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France Arabe 328 (b) before 750 CE
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=157
421-3 (single verse) ha meem ayn seen qaf like such inspired to you and toward the ones from before you the god the mighty the wise
Paris, Biblioth?que nationale de France Arabe 335 800 CE
https//corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/42/vers/1?handschrift=37
421-3 (single verse) ha meem ayn seen qaf like such inspired to you and toward the ones from before you the god the mighty the wise

imrankhawaja

peace Gl

PLZ read my post 34.
you missed something. ?

you claimed you are satisfied on your count and you said HAFZ but on same time you are rejecting verses (128-129) which were present in the oldest manuscript (any hafz) found in earth YOU GET IT now.

so its mean your theory hold no water.

good_logic

Peace Imran.
You are missing the most important thing here
The oldest manuscript? Is it the original copy that the prophet brought?
Please go over the evidence for me if I missed that?
Or is it you who do not understand my posts.
Claiming it is the oldest is very easy to do. How accurate is our Science of dating 100%?
Actually ,judging by what happened in history, the only fool proof method that preserves the text is the impossible to imitate number structure of the text!
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Noon.
I have not seen any evidence that the oldest manuscript you have is the copy of the prophet.
Of course all mushafs including the oldest manuscript we have is Qoran add or take away the errors.
This oldest manuscript could also have errors ,like all the others, if it is not the original one?

The fool proof method we have TODAY for checking this, is Mathematics.
It seems we are going around in a circle brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

@ GL

i know its hard to accept the defeat.
only very few people till date accepted it whole heartly and i m sure you are not one of them.

Good luck

look again read my post you claimed something ?
burden of proof is on the one who claims and his own claim goes against him very simple mathematics 2+2= 4

you said you count from HAFZ
i asked the hafz you claim got 128-129 in it ?

very simple like 2+2 so now i feel like rk your senses are blind to see your deafeat well i think its time to leave you alone and hopefully one day you will wake up from imaginary code what you guys still never understand.

if you wana continue discussion answer my questions instead of beating around the bush.

NOTE if its possible when reading my posts take your time and understand the questions first. it will help you understanding what we are on about.

hint i aksed you about the oldest ( HAFS) YOU GET IT i m trying to teach simple math to you if u can only understand.

God bless you

good_logic

Peace Imran.
I read your posts.
So you what is the history of this oldest HAFZ you are claiming ? Is it the original copy?
Maybe all old copies are with 128 and 129.
The question is Where is the copy left by the prophet? Which old one? Does it contain 128 and 129?
Now here is the answer to your question
Your oldest HAFZ copy is not the original copy according to the mathematical structure.
Over to you ?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Imran.
Just to clarify what I mean by "what is your history that the oldest HAFZ is from the time of the prophet".
Here is an example of another side of history
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iaSY4BB-2Q

Of course history can be true or false. The Evidence needs to be solid!
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

Peace Imran.
I read your posts.

Now here is the answer to your question
Your oldest HAFZ copy is not the original copy according to the mathematical structure.
Over to you ?

hahahahahahaha rotfl rotfl rotfl

Bold i doubt it to b honest.

Green wrong answer plz read my post again let me help in making u understand.
Gl claimed he satisfied with count of hafz.
then the version he himself not sure either its true or false.?
so Gl claim about imaginary code have 0 evidence so far.

God bless you.

good_logic

Peace Imran.
Likewise, now read my number 45 post in this thread.Make sure you go through the link to the finish. Hopefully you will understand more of the oldest HAFZ copy?
Then I await your answer.
Remember brother, people cannot be trusted, history cannot be trusted....Mathematics is our only fool proof tool us and the next generations.
Of course GOD can be trusted 100% and GOD is guiding events.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

imrankhawaja

who claimed something me or you ?

just want to break it on you. after 4 posts of making u understand u still not understand whats goin on elektro elektro hope this work if no then patience is the key.

lets see how much more time u need for understanding what i am asking or what you are claiming?

as usual i never left my weak students in the middle of nowwhere so another example.
if a pot of milk get mixed with just one drop of urine it will make whole milk dirty isnt it ?
why all code believers drinking the milk from that dodgy pot ? (applied to all code beleivers)

i m sure u still not understand but i tried my best to make you understand.
HINT sometimes u have to ask help from God ( specially in understanding math) i use to do that lol when i waz in school and stuck in solving different problems and understanding their solution.

but if you already know whats going on. honest person is the one when he understand the questions. he takes it seriously if he or his/her superiors dnt have the answers then ( its a time to start rethinking about their imaginations of code)

look in this thread noon even asked you the core question of chap 20 but you are unable to understand what he was on about. ? he asked you something and u keep giving him same comments rotfl

God bless you.

imrankhawaja

The fool proof method we have TODAY for checking this, is Mathematics.

and more intresting thing is they keep changing their method of math what need to apply.
coders dnt have a consistent pattern.

method of using algebra = double multiplication of 19 rotfl thats how you teach ur kids algebra of quran ?

FOOL proof method really
only problem is what is the method ?

good_logic

Peace Imran.
I have answered both you and brother Noon.
Give your history/evidence of your oldest manuscript.
If it is the original copy at the time of the prophet,then it will be the one with no errors. The matter will be settled both ways for me and you.
Otherwise it remains a claim from you and brother Noon.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

reel

Peace Imran.
I have answered both you and brother Noon.
Give your history/evidence of your oldest manuscript.
If it is the original copy at the time of the prophet,then it will be the one with no errors. The matter will be settled both ways for me and you.
Otherwise it remains a claim from you and brother Noon.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Memorization should also be taken into consideration. It is a fact that it is impossible to erase Quran chapters from the brain once memorized. Even a long break doesn't impact it.

good_logic

Peace reel..
Unfortunately there are no recording of early memorisations to check this .
Also memorisation is learnt from the mushafs that are available at the time.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

huruf

Peace reel..

Also memorisation is learnt from the mushafs that are available at the time.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Not necessarily or rather not. in a orld like today's where print is cheap, paper is cheap, everything is cheap to do relie on the written word ithout any need for memory whatsoever, es very different from another orld in hich there is no print, here not necessarily everybody knos ho to read and write.

Let us not forget that during thousands of years preservation of knowledge maoungst human kin dhas been done exclusively or greatly through oral trnasmission.

In fact hen I was a child, there as still a certain love for learning literature by heart. I still remember the poetry I learn in school to recite. I loved it and I do remember every single poem i learnt. Poetru is particularly apt to rmeember since it has the rythm and musicality.

I would never ignore oral transmission.

From all I have ben able to ascertain, the Qur'an was transmitted through two separate and simultaneous channels, oral and written. Committed to memory and commited to paper or equivalent.

Salaam

good_logic

Peace huruf.
So there were two different memorisations
1- During the prophet s time. As the verses were being sent.
2- After the new arrangement of the surahs,the arrangement we have today.
I am not ignoring oral transmissions. I want to make sure the two transmissions have identical contents. A perfectly logical question to ask.
Especially when there is an issue with the history?
GOD bless you.
Peace.