Question to the former sunni muslims here

lena953

Peace,

I've got a question to the former sunni muslims here especially to the men. How could you belive in Hadiths, which degrade the status of women like women are the slaves of men, women make the majority of the people in hellfire, women being cursed and all that nasty stuff? I've get into a lot of a discussions with sunni muslims especially with my boyfriend about those Hadiths. I know I shouldn't mind what other people think or say, because all that matters is my relationship to god. But if those topics come up I get so emotionally attached and it is hard not to judge them because of their opinions about this. I know this is the wrong behavior, so I want to understand how they can belive in such stuff. The discussions most of the time end with the following " God has a different idea about the role of women and marriage than you, accept that. Your iman is not strong enough. You don't believe in a hereafter, otherwise you would know that the men who take adventage out of those rules get punished for it. You only follow God/quran alone, because you can't accept your role as women."
However I can't imagine that anyone, who is a good person, read those Hadiths and think "wow that's how I always imagined the role of women and marriage to be like." It's hard for me to belive that anyone, who thinks such stuff is true, is a good person. So help me out, what did you think about those Hadiths?

Peace, Lena

Makaveli

Degradation of women is innate to any patriarchal cultures including the Right wing agenda. In 50's it was perfectly normal to 'educate' your wife, today due to an increase in political correctness it is mostly associated with Islamic world, but of course is not at all limited to it.

https//thegoddessacademy.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/a96674_ifyourhusband.jpg

The question I would ask you is how could you believe the hadiths that tell you about men being providers and sole caretakers of women and women need a strong masculine sholder to rely on? If you believed those seemingly 'good' hadiths you are no better than those,who accept "mysogynists" hadiths, because the former is the result of the latter, they are interrelated. You have to think deeper and not just at the tip of the iceberg.

If you accept yourself as an object of "support", "care" and "protection" then you BELONG to the subject of "support", "care" and "protection".

See how primitive and black&white is the worldview of majority of people and how simple it is to adjust the subject and show the other half of a coin.

https//image.ibb.co/ebCegn/pic_20180419_091842.png

Jafar

I've got a question to the former sunni muslims here especially to the men. How could you belive in Hadiths, which degrade the status of women like women are the slaves of men, women make the majority of the people in hellfire, women being cursed and all that nasty stuff? I've get into a lot of a discussions with sunni muslims especially with my boyfriend about those Hadiths. I know I shouldn't mind what other people think or say, because all that matters is my relationship to god. But if those topics come up I get so emotionally attached and it is hard not to judge them because of their opinions about this. I know this is the wrong behavior, so I want to understand how they can belive in such stuff. The discussions most of the time end with the following " God has a different idea about the role of women and marriage than you, accept that. Your iman is not strong enough. You don't believe in a hereafter, otherwise you would know that the men who take adventage out of those rules get punished for it. You only follow God/quran alone, because you can't accept your role as women."

There are many ideas / dogmas that was indoctrinated to me that even though I can see that it doesn't make any sense I was too AFRAID to even thinking about the validity of such ideas and dogmas.

The FEAR came from

Society, family, friends, teachers, imams etc..
The fear of becoming a 'murtad' or a 'kufr' and being rejected by society.
God.
The act of 'doubting' the 'idea' that are "revelation from God" will makes God very angry.
And when He is angry He will torture the 'doubter' with horrible treatment for all eternity after they die.
The above specifically pushed the "survival mode" button inside my brain (or anyone else brain for that matter including yours) and do anything in order to 'survive'. It's a basic human instinct.. survival is #1 priority.

The above is valid not only for "Sunni Muslims" but basically all member of religious sect or political ideology (Such as Facism, Leninism, Maoism, Jucheism in North Korea etc..) All religion / political ideology depends on authority to instill FEAR within the society in order to CONTROL them.

If you want your boyfriend to think "clearly", or anyone else for that matter, then the first step is to work on how to dispel the FEAR. The absent of fear shall at least makes him be brave enough to start questioning and rethink some of the doubt that already lingering in his mind. Might not be the issue of "role of women" though... it might be something else...

It is NOT EASY.. and most of the time it doesn't work.

Psychological experiments shows that when a conflict arises between conscience and fear coming from an authority, fear won 99% of the time.

It takes a great amount of bravery to do so and nobody else can help him do it except himself.

Thus it is much better to start with yourselves first.

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds!"
-- Bob Marley

imrankhawaja

The FEAR came from

peace jaffar.
hope you doing well.

the FEAR is in our nature installed by the LORD of universe.

good_logic

Peace lena953.
I agree with you. The way Qoran has been translated by hadiths is embarrassing and oppressive.
GOD s wisdom goes beyond all issues. What God is saying in Qoran needs a lot of pondering and reflection ,.

Qoran and Paedophilia, Qoran and slavery, Qoran and homosexuality, Qoran and oppression, Qoran and gender, Qoran and morals, Qoran and different generations, Qoran and?
GOD is very much aware of every generation and its behavioural cycles. To me Qoran never condemns innocent people. All God s messages and Qoran have come as a mercy to all the generations as a way out of all issues.

Do you think GOD is not aware of slavery, oppression, paedophilia, gender bias? etc through the generations? Do you think that GOD condemns without justice? Do you think that GOD is not aware of the various stages of life of different generations?

Qoran has set a way of life according to GOD s system and offers a way out of other ?systems?. Qoran comes to ?free? the true believer by ?wiping out all his/her issues?.
GOD is forgiver most Merciful to all believers in every generation.
For example, Qoran gave clear instructions about who to marry, yet allowed existing marriages of the time it came to remain intact.
Qoran gave clear instructions about slavery,yet allowed (under certain fair condition) those who had slaves and encouraged them to free the slaves. etc?
In short,It is a "man s world"! Some prefer it that way.
Students of Qoran know to follow the "best path " in it
1-Do to others...
2- One wife/husband to be just.No sex allowed with anyone else.
3-No oppression.
4-Argue/encourage by what is best.
5-Rights for everyone,like you would want your rights.
6-Stand for what is fair and right as per GOD s best path.
...etc.

The lady is right to question the religion of men.
Or shall we expect to adhere to hadiths ways?
Or shall we keep on following our old generations, grandfathers and fathers?

Lady,I have no excuses for you why the world of religion is the way it is. It seems unfair and oppressive.
All of us need to fight prejudice ,oppression against women, weak men and children.
The way things are in the religion does not look like "following the best path" instructed in Qoran.
Part of the solution needs to start at home by the fathers and the sons of this and future generations.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
We, this generation, if we say we believe Qoran,then we need to ponder its way and apply it to ourselves. Qoran encourages freedom.knowledge.justice ,forgiveness, set an example?etc. GOD then does the rest.

,Qoran never ever confirms nonsense and fables!!! Qoran never confirms bias and oppression!!!Qoran never ever confirms ?Men s? warped logic/understanding and arrogance!!!!

Sometimes the mind boggles!In the past, Men(some!),yes Men(Some) have interpreted GOD s words , women were too busy being responsible for the home and siblings and doing their duty to GOD,women also trusted men!. Men took advantage of that and translated GOD s words to suit their big egos and oppress women, weak men other races and children.
What a travesty of justice! Never mind, the game will soon be over. Let them rejoice in their fables and oppression for a bit.
GOD bless all the true believers that are now exposing these ?big egos? and false religions .
If you despair of the religion,please do not despair of Qoran. Or at least study it in detail,then decide.
May the Lord bless you and help you with the issues.

burhan

Peace lena953,

You can't just lay the blame at doorstep of hadith. The Quran has problems too. God never speaks to women directly. Not a single verse that start "O'women". Except for 3332 which is condescending in it's tone.

By never speaking to women directly, the Quran robbed them of their voice. Have you noticed other than Mary no woman is mentioned by name. It's always "woman of so and so".

Every commandment issued to women is via their proxy (men). It's always "Tell your women ...", "Keep your women", "your woman".

Do you think that consistently referring to women as the property of men is empowering. What kind of culture would that language and tone have created?

How would you feel if women were addressed this way today. Pick up any news paper or book and change the sentence "men and women" to "men and their women" and see how you feel.

good_logic

Peace Burhan.
You think "Ya Ayuha Alladina Aamanu" are men only?
I find your understanding of Qoran is a problem, not Qoran according to my study of the book.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Jafar

the FEAR is in our nature installed by the LORD of universe.

Of course but so what?

FEAR is the emotion needed to survive, it exist in nearly all carbon based living being....
Served as warning system of prominent danger which shall endangered the continuation of your life.

3 type of emotions registered as high priority by the brain (of all animal )

Hunger and Thirst
Fear
Sexual urge (after their sexual organ has been fully developed)

(1) and (2) related to the survival of the being itself.
(3) related to the survival of the species.

Fear is the most effective method to control human.
And some few smart human leverage that to control other human in accordance to his/her wishes.
From religious leaders to mafia bosses.

That's why I bravo bravoto those who managed to conquer their fear and sided with his/her own conscience and common sense.

Statistically speaking only 1% among human are able to do that.

HP_TECH

So we are just going to overlook the fact that she has a boyfriend......
ok then carry on

A_Submitter

Lena, why do you have a boyfriend?

imrankhawaja

Of course but so what?

its mean "creatures" should fear CREATOR otherwise they will go against the rules of nature and will cause trouble and FEAR for innocent people.

3 type of emotions registered as high priority by the brain (of all animal )

Hunger and Thirst
Fear
Sexual urge (after their sexual organ has been fully developed)

the first memory of FEAR is someone watching you which is beyond the human perception.. probably the creations know they are created by someone who is watching over them ..

its out of topic i wish you can put some of your thoughts in handling the third emotion as i see its a strange kind of urge and desire.. in case of married couple or GF/BF the singles who are alone from ages will suffer so do you think "lust" or releasing ur lust by different means like "adult services" is recommended

if somebody is helpless in his/her emotions and he do it occasionally but rest of the matters he is very kind and righteous person.. what you think he should be punished by God?

That's why I bravo bravoto those who managed to conquer their fear and sided with his/her own conscience and common sense.

FEAR is not a thing that a human being can overcome on it .. trust me on this..
FEAR always exist..

just as an example..
the don/maffia =( fear of bigger gang) /police / enemity
goverment officers (fear of law, courts)
judges ( the fear of media, other members of bench)

Jafar

So we are just going to overlook the fact that she has a boyfriend......
ok then carry on

Lena, why not you have a girlfriend instead ?

its mean "creatures" should fear CREATOR otherwise they will go against the rules of nature and will cause trouble and FEAR for innocent people.

No creation can go against the wish / rules of it's creator.
If it's truly the creation of the creator.
The true creator doesn't use FEAR to control it's creation.
Otherwise the creator is losing control of it's own creation.
Which is totally ridiculous.

Do you ever angry at your own hands?
Or other things that you have full control of.

the first memory of FEAR is someone watching you which is beyond the human perception.. probably the creations know they are created by someone who is watching over them ..

Instinct of FEAR as reaction to DANGER, some of those are embedded and passed along within the DNA.
That's why you sense fear upon hearing a roar or a howl, an indication of your predator.
And you don' sense any fear upon hearing a chirp or a cluck.

Spielberg knew this well, that's why he modified the sound of T Rex in Jurassic Park to be "Roaring" like Lion. In true reality T Rex either chirp like a bird or cluck like a chicken.
Your ancestor has modified the information to be passed along to his/her descendant, given thousands of generations has passed since they faced T-Rex as predator; who chirp or cluck, instead they passed on the "If you hear Roar or Howl -> FEAR" procedure instead, given they commonly faced Lions, Bear, Tiger or Wolf.

its out of topic i wish you can put some of your thoughts in handling the third emotion as i see its a strange kind of urge and desire.. in case of married couple or GF/BF the singles who are alone from ages will suffer so do you think "lust" or releasing ur lust by different means like "adult services" is recommended

It's definitely out of topic...

if somebody is helpless in his/her emotions and he do it occasionally but rest of the matters he is very kind and righteous person.. what you think he should be punished by God?

God never "be angry" or "punish" given everything is within His control

FEAR is not a thing that a human being can overcome on it .. trust me on this..
FEAR always exist.. just as an example..
the don/maffia =( fear of bigger gang) /police / enemity
goverment officers (fear of law, courts)
judges ( the fear of media, other members of bench)

1% of human being has been proven to actually capable to overcome their fear.

There's always few minorities who resist dictators, some minorities dare enough to say "F^& YOU!" to the Fuhrer, some minorities who resist and condemned the dogma of Religious Leaders, some minorities who dare to testify against Mr Capone, some minorities who fought a robber armed with a gun etc etc..

A 'familiar' example might be Mr. Abraham
He dare to resist his own father, who was an idol maker, his society, his religion and his Gods.
The threat of Marduk will be angry and shall torture him for all eternity doesn't seem to work on him.

In response, the religious authority punished him by burning at the stake, to strike FEAR; not to Abraham, but to the society as an example of those who dare to blaspheme and desecrate the holiness of Marduk and society's religion. Thus nobody will dare to follow what Mr Abraham's has been doing and thinking.

Punishment is an evidence of how the 'claimed authority' doesn't have full control of those who are being punished. In this case either Mr. Marduk (The God), Abraham's Dad, Abraham's Religious Leader doesn't have any control over the behavior of Abraham.

And how many 'followers' did Abraham get? Very very few.. infact nearly NONE.
Many would actually agree on his opinion as his point does make sense... but due to the FEAR they decided to stay silent.

The same case goes with Mr. Jesus, Mr. John, Mr. Socrates etc..
Mr. Jesus was a famous preacher, garnered many followers but none of them were brave enough to resist the AUTHORITY when Mr Jesus was punished with death through crucifixion.

Thus, the summary

If you want to think CLEARLY, first you need to let go / conquer your own fear.

Don't believe / accept something due to the fear of something.

This advice is applicable to all kind of situation.
Business decision, investment decision, personal decision..
And many of today's self help books and psychological experiment agree on the above.

smmirza1

Hello,
The Quran was revealed to a man. The Quran does address men because men are maintainers and protectors of women. Just because the current culture treats men and women as equals does not mean it is so. The male is not like the female. Also the Quran warns not to take secret friends i.e. boyfriend, girlfriend. I would afvise you to stop engaging in debates with others and work on purifying yourself and getting in line with Quranic imperatives first.
Peace

lena953

As everyone seems so interested why I'm having a boyfriend. It's a long story. I've been in a relationship with him for a long time. While in our relationship he started converting to sunni Islam. After that I also started looking into Islam. Since then we are having a non physical relationship until we can get married. I did not yet convert to Islam, but I found my way to God, which I'm so thankfull for.

lime_juice

As everyone seems so interested why I'm having a boyfriend. It's a long story. I've been in a relationship with him for a long time. While in our relationship he started converting to sunni Islam. After that I also started looking into Islam. Since then we are having a non physical relationship until we can get married. I did not yet convert to Islam, but I found my way to God, which I'm so thankfull for.

Peace Lena
the Lord of the Universe too big for any religion today.
Make no mistake He send us His Book not to dictate our lives but to tell us of His existence and learn of His attributes that He has detailed it.clearly.

If you need confirmation of my saying above;
go ask you religionist bf to prove you of his God's existence and what His attributes are..

hear his response..........and wait and wait

many are mere followers that more concerned of man made rituals than to know the God of the Universe they claimed to believe.

reel

So we are just going to overlook the fact that she has a boyfriend......
ok then carry on

What is wrong about the fact that she has the one she loves?

"But if those topics come up I get so emotionally attached and it is hard not to judge them because of their opinions about this. I know this is the wrong behavior, so I want to understand how they can belive in such stuff. "

You are not doing anything wrong by judging what caused destruction and many deaths throughout the centuries.

The discussions most of the time end with the following " God has a different idea about the role of women and marriage than you, accept that. Your iman is not strong enough. You don't believe in a hereafter, otherwise you would know that the men who take adventage out of those rules get punished for it. You only follow God/quran alone, because you can't accept your role as women."

They can say so because
Mainstream Islam = Fear Factor

They think God makes humans do weird stuff. Those who reject it are thrown in hell.

HP_TECH

What is wrong about the fact that she has the one she loves?

"But if those topics come up I get so emotionally attached and it is hard not to judge them because of their opinions about this. I know this is the wrong behavior, so I want to understand how they can belive in such stuff. "

You are not doing anything wrong by judging what caused destruction and many deaths throughout the centuries.

They can say so because
Mainstream Islam = Fear Factor

They think God makes humans do weird stuff. Those who reject it are thrown in hell.

Reel I am becoming disappointed with you
Enjoin the GOOD(utmost) and forbid the WRONG
You should encourage virtue and righteousness not play devil's advocate for "f***ery"
Living according to the limits set by Allah not according to one's own desire is our way.
The dynamics of a relationship such as boyfriend and girlfriend in the way implemented by the West is not reconcilable with our principles whatsoever.
Stand up for what is right and forsake the same demented confirmation bias trend that is plaguing this forum, better yet this world.

good_logic

Peace All.

What is the best way to invite people to the straight path?
How can we be effective?
Or should we lead by example and be peaceful and positive towards everyone?
Or shall we force people to follow our way?
Or better still reprimand and insult people who do not want the straight path? Be aggressive towards them?

There is nothing wrong in clearly identifying ourselves as Qoran followers, but we need to apply the best path shown to us in Qoran for ourselves and realise that free will applies to everyone else also.
What does Qoran asks us to do as individuals?
So how can we show the example by being rude, aggressive and disrespectful to people who are peaceful towards us?

No matter how we feel inside ,we must show patience and reciprocate good to others whoever they may be.

God has been kind and merciful towards us with Qoran and guidance ,should we not share that forgiveness ,kindness and mercy with others?
May the Lord bless and have mercy on all His creatures.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Wakas

peace,

To answer the original question, here are some brief thoughts of mine

most religionists/Muslims are ignorant of their faith, especially with regard to what Quran says, but also Hadith, so most tend to believe X because they think Islam/God says X
most people tend to be brainwashed/conditioned/programmed by culture to a certain extent, so they just follow/practice this programming without really examining it. Many cultures treat women differently to men.
people, and perhaps men more so, have an inherent gender superiority complex (to some degree) which could be related to point (2) above, but it might make them think that the differences Islam/God says about men/women makes sense to them, or that is their experience, so it seems right to them, so it becomes their view also, they dont question it.

How to address this problem?
The first thing I would say, based on my experience, is that most people are not what I would call sincere truthseekers. It doesn't matter what evidence/logic you provide them, they will continue to believe what they want to believe. So prepare yourself for that.

You can however use some resources and point out some simple misconceptions, ask open questions, make them think etc, e.g. http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com

If you consider your potential partner to be a sincere truthseeker then it's all good in the long run as everyone is at different stages in the journey, and as long as you both are heading in the same direction it should work out.

IsaMuslim

Reel I am becoming disappointed with you
Enjoin the GOOD(utmost) and forbid the WRONG
You should encourage virtue and righteousness not play devil's advocate for "f***ery"
Living according to the limits set by Allah not according to one's own desire is our way.
The dynamics of a relationship such as boyfriend and girlfriend in the way implemented by the West is not reconcilable with our principles whatsoever.
Stand up for what is right and forsake the same demented confirmation bias trend that is plaguing this forum, better yet this world.

Salam,
I partly agree with you.
I'd say that if two people are in love they should marry as soon as possible, but being in a relationship in which the couple go out together or talk, not the "western way", without having sexual contact is not haram.
I also say that you're right when you say that we must stand up for what is right and not to follow our desires.