Guys lets all get tipsy - Alcohol is not Haram
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Salaam,
Marie, do you think that muslims should NOT drink alcohol?
We all agree alkhamr/intoxicants is not forbiden. I see their benefit in medecine..
I cannot say to anyone you should NOT drink alcohol because we are told "Refrain from it that you may prosper"
Would you permit alcohol consumption in moderation during special occasions?
"Refrain from it" doesn't imply except during special occasions. I see this verse in the same way than 2187, 615, 1636, 2230...
The God knows best
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Peace Natu,
Your questions are very practicle and I thank you for bringing this subject to the forefront...
We are to teach our children what God has taught us...That
- Alcohol has benefits but it also has harmful effects (2219).
- People can make a lawful trade from alcohol (1667).
- If a person is intoxicated, he/she should never approach Salat (443).
- The devil will attempt to utilize our consumption of alcohol in a negative way, so be extra careful from this potential weakness (590-91).
- In paradise we will also have alcohol, but without the negative side-effects/risks (4715).
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Khamr can be interpreted as intoxication and not alchohol/intoxicants.
So alcohol is not forbidden but gettting drunk is. For those of you that choose to continue to interpret khamr as intoxicant/alchohol, then when the Koran says to avoid it, it is haraam. haraam can be interpreted as 'restriction' and if the Koran says avoid something that is a restriction. To avoid something is to steer clear of it, not to touch it. When you avoid a person aren't you restricting yourself from contact with that person. The only time that you make contact with them is accidentally and you quickly remedy that situation if possible by ignoring them or walking the other way. So to avoid something is clearly to restrict yourself. For those of you who believe that alchohol is to be avoided that means that it is haraam.For those who have the interpretation that I take, that its the intoxication that is the problem and so intoxication is to be avoided then to drink here and there is fine, but to get drunk is wrong. Distilled alchohols are intended to make you drunk, so unless your taking a tincture or using it to disinfect something, stay away. IF you know you feel drunk after a glass of wine or beer, stay away. If you know it takes 2 for you to start to feel funny only drink one. If you don't trust yourself with where to stop, then just stay away completely.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace
when the Koran says to avoid it, it is haraam
Unless its clearly stated as forbidden , do we have the authority to stretch meanings further than they should be? Intoxicants as the Quran states, have benefits and harm in them
"Say, "Who prohibited the nice things God has created for His creatures, and the good provisions?" Say," such provisions are to be enjoyed in THIS life by those who BELIEVE. Moreover, the good provisions will be exclusively theirs on the Day of resurrection." We thus explain the revelations for people who know." 732 (QURAN)
"And do not say lies for what your tongues describes this is lawful (HALAL), and that is unlawful (HARAM), to lie about God. Those who lie about God will never succeed. They will have small pleasures (on Earth), AND FOR THEM IS A PAINFUL RETRIBUTION" (16/116-117)
"Say 'Do you see that which God has provided for you, you make some of it Unlawful (Haram) and some of it Lawful (Halal)?. Say 'Did God allow you to do this? Or do you tell lies about God?" (10/59)
I suspect there may be a flaw in my argument
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Peace,
I would like to assert that the Quran orders us to avoid the DEVIL and not alcohol in the verse regarding 'khamr'. This is according to the PM translation of the Quran.
I too think that we should stick to the teachings of the Quran and not stretch meanings and to teach what GOD teaches. He has not forbade alcohol or told us to avoid but told us to beware of the Devil's tricks.
Peace
Nural
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He has not forbade alcohol or told us to avoid but told us to beware of the Devil's tricks.
Exactly, so what will you tell your kid?
'It is not forbidden by God, but beware of the Devil's tricks when you drink.'
A hard one, since I for example wouldn't like my kid to drink any alcohol. Especially in his/her teenage years.
I used to be young (22 now -not that old either-) and loved the thrill of getting tipsy/drunk. Although you always regret the last one when you bow down to let the drink "exit".
I think it depends on the tie you have with your kid I think. Hard one.
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I used to be young (22 now -not that old either-) and loved the thrill of getting tipsy/drunk. Although you always regret the last one when you bow down to let the drink "exit".
Wow, 22 is old thesedays...I just turned 21
If you drink without giving a care in the world, you'll end up to be fat, lazy and have hangovers all the time...I've never had alcohol or even red bull, but I'd like to try someday...now that I am 21, I want to give it a shot.
I haven't smoked either, but a friend of mine tells me, smoking takes away all the pains of life, soo..... wink
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Salaamun
Well, if its not prohibbited in Islam but the effects we have after drinking it, are they allowed in Islam? You mean you won't stop your kids while they drink alcohol but erm I kind of think that a person looses his/her senses after drinking it. If your child goes around raping this girl as just a side effect of alcohol will that be perfectly correct because its just the effect of alcohol and muslims are not prohibbited to drink alcohol. And the question what will we say to our children to stop them from drinking alcohol can be different for everyone. That depends upon how good friends are the parents and the kids. If and when (Insha-Allah) Allah blesses me with children then forsure i won't allow them to drink alcohol. Because it influences us to do evil.
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I used to be young (22 now -not that old either-) and loved the thrill of getting tipsy/drunk. Although you always regret the last one when you bow down to let the drink "exit".
Wow, 22 is old thesedays...I just turned 21
If you drink without giving a care in the world, you'll end up to be fat, lazy and have hangovers all the time...I've never had alcohol or even red bull, but I'd like to try someday...now that I am 21, I want to give it a shot.
I haven't smoked either, but a friend of mine tells me, smoking takes away all the pains of life, soo..... wink
Been there, done that... but won't ever do it again! I won't recommend smoking. Especially if you like to work out. P
However I think it's going to be hard to teach children about alcohol, cigarettes and drugs in the future. Especially in their teenage years, since those are the years for experimenting and getting to know "new" things.
I get scared thinking about it.
?
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Peace
With all due respect I think there are way too many assumptions being made here. Yes I would tell my kids honestly that GOD has not prohibited alcohol, and I will teach them to be moderate GW.
Most people on this thread are assuming that the whole point of drinking is to get VERY drunk! Young teenagers or anyone don't have to get absolutely drunk when drinking but it does happen. The idea is moderatrion and self-control. The stupid things that people do when drunk; adultery, murder etc. These are exactly what GOD is outlining, that the devil will use alcohol to make us do very bad things. This must be taught to kids and people, rather than just saying it is prohibited and attributing this lie to GOD. The MESSAGE is heavy and should not be concealed.
Exposure to alcohol at young age in orthodox Jewish families has shown positive signs. They are very few orthodox Jewish alcoholics.
Personnaly I think the problems of alcohol are serious socially today as we can see but people are now gathering extreme views about it. Control is the key not PROHIBITION! Prohibition was tried before and it wasn't successful!
Peace
Nural
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Peace Greensleaves,
I am 18 and here in Britain we can legally purchase and drink alcohol at the age of 18. I do not smoke but the legal age of buying and smoking is 16 here.
I think america has a very high age of 21! Ridiculous! If 18 year olds are sent out to fight in a war, why can't they have a drink!
Peace
Nural
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ALCOHOL IS NOT FORBIDDEN
SO IT WOULD NOT BE SINFUL TO DRINK ALCOHOL WHILST READING THE QURAN.
TELL ME WOULD IT BE OKAY TO DRINK ALCOHOL WHILST READING NAMAAZ NOW?
OKAY LETS GO TO STRIP CLUBS DANCE NAKED AND GET LAID ALL DAY
I CAN STILL CALL MYSELF A MUSLIM ACCORDING TO NATU
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God's blessing on all,
al-Khamr does not mean Devil. So I don't know where PM translation got that.
It does mean 'getting drunk/high' or 'intoxicants'
I think 'getthing drunk/high' should be the prefered meaning as that is what you want to do when you drink intoxicants.
To avoid (ijtinaab) something is to restrict (haraam) yourself from it. Is to stroll not to walk, to relax not to rest? They are different ways of saying the same thing. If you have to avoid something that means that you are restricted from it, it is haraam.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Hey Nural,
I am 18 and here in Britain we can legally purchase and drink alcohol at the age of 18. I do not smoke but the legal age of buying and smoking is 16 here.
Isn't it much younger in Germany though? Like at 16 you can get as much drunk as possible...something Homey Simpson would put as...mmmm bear ) I guess that's why majority of people tend to have an image of Germans as drunks shock
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Isn't it much younger in Germany though? Like at 16 you can get as much drunk as possible...something Homey Simpson would put as...mmmm bear I guess that's why majority of people tend to have an image of Germans as drunks shock
Salam Green Leaves, all
no it isn't much younger in Germany. I just looked it up for you and it says the same as in Britain at the age of 18. BUT in reality kids do get Alcohol very easily and its getting more and more a problem.
I think what is interesting to see is that in countries like Italy, Spain, Portugal,... where they drink usually wine with dinner they have much less problems like in countries where this is not usual. In many nothern countries they use alkohol to get drunken only and not to enjoy the taste. Unfortunately there is hardly any party without masses of alcohol
However I think here too it is very important how kids grow up and how they see their parents. If they see their parents get drunken often it will become normal for them to drink and get drunken also.
Salam
warda -
Peace.
Dear QSX, I have not been as active on this forum lately, so it?s good to come back and hear that you have read all of my posts! I would very much like to disregard the differences between us, and try to see where the problem lies, and go on from there. If you believe that hadith books are correct and that my approaches to the issues presented have been biased or unfair in anyway, then please forgive me for offending you and I will pray that the God helps the both of us. I strongly urge you to cooperate so that we may begin discussion in an appropriate section of the forum, so the truth is reached, whether it is me that changes or you.
If in the event that you do not wish to engage in constructive discussion with me, then feel free to read or participate in this forum in a just manner. If you still insist on insulting me or indeed anyone else on this forum, then I suggest you open a thread in the trash section just to release your anger, that way you will feel better, and these threads that are being used to search for the truth will remain free from your bad language.
I believe it should have become quite clear to you by now from posts that my brothers and sisters on this forum have directed towards you that it would be best if you made a significant improvement to your approach. I am in no way hindered by your insults, and In case you think I am going to find your remarks offensive in any way, then may I make it clear to you that this is most certainly not the case, and I?ll bring it to your attention that I have the ability to curse you to such an extent that your fingers will never dare type ?free-minds? on your keyboard again in your life, but I am taking a peaceful and civilised approach to you because unlike you I would hate to go out and insult a person new to me, and cursing someone for their views is not what the God advocates, nor is it what I stand for. I intend to make bonds, not break them, as you are out to do.
I hope you realise that I really do not approve of your floaty arguments without Quranic basis, which many would agree is what you are doing. For what you have said to me and about me so far, I forgive you and request that other forum members do so as well, so that you may begin a search for the truth, something everybody else on this forum is doing. I invite you to friendship and healthy discussion, but if you decide otherwise and continue your campaign against me, then the God is indeed witness of everything, and it will no doubt act accordingly. I shall say no more. May the God guide us all.
You said ?OKAY LETS GO TO STRIP CLUBS DANCE NAKED AND GET LAID ALL DAY? ? Fine if you want to go, but I personally wouldn?t want to join you, and have to see you dance naked, but I don?t see how somebody with IQ your level or ability to communicate will pull off getting laid all day. Tell me how it went.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
think what is interesting to see is that in countries like Italy, Spain, Portugal,... where they drink usually wine with dinner they have much less problems like in countries where this is not usual. In many nothern countries they use alkohol to get drunken only and not to enjoy the taste. Unfortunately there is hardly any party without masses of alcohol
That's sad isn't it guten fruend (did I say it right????)
Seriously, if I lived in Germany, I'd be hooked on your German chocolates, not alcohol...we do get them here in US, but not a wide range though (
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Peace.
We?ve got a good debate going now, and as a result, I think I am going to re-evaluate my views on this issue. I?ve been thinking, in the actual Arabic, it might actually be that we are to avoid ?intoxication?, not ?intoxicants?. For example, we might not need to avoid drinking small amounts for the taste, because we are up to a point exposed to only the intoxicant, not the intoxication. The answer to this point I have raised is heavily based on the exact wording of the Quran, so could anybody with a closer analysis of the actual Arabic involved please make a response to this point?
Another way to consider this issue could be that the issue regarding ?intoxicants? and ?convenient time? (Please see Aidid Safar?s translation of 2219 at http//aididsafar.com/, and read the foot note as to why he has translated the verse in this way) is dealt with in a different way to pig meat for example. For pig meat, God says things like ?prohibited for you is the meat of pig?, such as in
53 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on alters, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is all vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not fear them, but fear Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted surrender as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Intoxicants are clearly not prohibited, and looking at the structure of this verse, where God says ?today I have perfected for you your religion?, so this indicates that we needn?t worry about intoxicants. Furthermore, one could say that these are just things that are eaten, and since alcohol is not eaten, it is drunk, this has not been included, but from what I have heard, this verse is actually talking about ?running blood?, so it includes drink as well. But this kind of language is not found in verses talking about intoxicants. This is what makes me personally look further into intoxicants, rather than write it off altogether. In a sense, this issue could be resolved by considering it as an indirect prohibition on alcohol. Now I?m trying my best not to prohibit something that has not been prohibited by God, but I?m thinking along the lines that if indeed the verse is talking about ?intoxicants? and ?gambling?, and not ?intoxicants? and ?convenient time? (As shown in the Aidid Safar translation), then God may be prohibiting intoxicants but not as directly, because other things he has prohibited, such as pig meat, are not addictive, so God?s commandment is more easily accepted, but in the case of the addictive things, intoxicants and gambling, God (may he forgive me and show me the right way if I am wrong), has taken more of a softer approach, by ?encouraging? us to avoid it instead. I know it all seems a bit pish posh me talking about God being lenient with his commandments, but the reason I say this is because in 5091, God questions those who have intoxicants, by saying ??will you not then abstain?? But then again, God does say that he has made the Quran clear and easy to understand, so I think it?s unlikely that this explanation of a ?softer approach? is the right one.
With thanks to brother Layth for providing direct references to the Quran, I would like to share my views on the following verses.
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit.? And they ask you how much are they to give, Say ?The excess.? It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
My comments on this verse would be that if the bit that says ?but their harm is greater than their benefit? is reworded (if in line with the Arabic of the Quran) as ?but their harm is IN THE greater than their benefit?, if it read as such, then the concept of moderation would clearly be justified. I don?t know myself; perhaps Arab experts out there could clarify the issue. Secondly, this same verse goes on to talk about giving the excess. Now it makes sense how intoxicants could be given in charity, but ?gambling? or ?convenient time? cannot, so I think this may be the point that justifies drinking in moderation. And then in the same verse he goes on to say that ?it is thus that God clarifies the revelations?. This is in itself a sign for me personally, which shows that God has talked about ?the excess? on purpose, and that purpose is in support of moderation.
1667 And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
This verse says ?wine and a good provision?, so does this mean that wine is a good provision, or does it mean that wine is on one side, and good provisions are on the other? I?m not sure about this; I request others that are capable to shed some light on this.
443 O you who believe, do not come near the contact-method while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying...
This verse directly deals with ?intoxication? and not the ?intoxicant?, so I don?t think this can be used to justify the prohibition of intoxicants.
590-91 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful. The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact-method. Will you be deterred?
I find it quite clear that a mistranslation has occurred in this ?Progressive Muslims? translation, because we can?t possibly avoid the devil, its with us all the time, what we can do is ignore the devil or avoid falling to the devils persuasions. The final part of 591 (will you be deterred/will you then desist/will you then refrain) is what leads me to think that because intoxicants and ?gambling?/ ?convenient times? are addictive, God is using the persuasion technique rather than direct commandments of prohibition.
4715 Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with ? rivers of wine that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey.
This is perhaps the verse that wants me to try the stuff out lol, especially when it?s associated with rivers of strained honey.
Like I said, these as my personal opinions on this issue at the moment, for which I?ve given supportive and unsupportive criticisms. I?d like to hear what you all have to say.
Peace.
Natu on the line.
