Guys lets all get tipsy - Alcohol is not Haram
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Peace.
We?ve got a good debate going now, and as a result, I think I am going to re-evaluate my views on this issue. I?ve been thinking, in the actual Arabic, it might actually be that we are to avoid ?intoxication?, not ?intoxicants?. For example, we might not need to avoid drinking small amounts for the taste, because we are up to a point exposed to only the intoxicant, not the intoxication. The answer to this point I have raised is heavily based on the exact wording of the Quran, so could anybody with a closer analysis of the actual Arabic involved please make a response to this point?
Another way to consider this issue could be that the issue regarding ?intoxicants? and ?convenient time? (Please see Aidid Safar?s translation of 2219 at http//aididsafar.com/, and read the foot note as to why he has translated the verse in this way) is dealt with in a different way to pig meat for example. For pig meat, God says things like ?prohibited for you is the meat of pig?, such as in
53 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on alters, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is all vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not fear them, but fear Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted surrender as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Intoxicants are clearly not prohibited, and looking at the structure of this verse, where God says ?today I have perfected for you your religion?, so this indicates that we needn?t worry about intoxicants. Furthermore, one could say that these are just things that are eaten, and since alcohol is not eaten, it is drunk, this has not been included, but from what I have heard, this verse is actually talking about ?running blood?, so it includes drink as well. But this kind of language is not found in verses talking about intoxicants. This is what makes me personally look further into intoxicants, rather than write it off altogether. In a sense, this issue could be resolved by considering it as an indirect prohibition on alcohol. Now I?m trying my best not to prohibit something that has not been prohibited by God, but I?m thinking along the lines that if indeed the verse is talking about ?intoxicants? and ?gambling?, and not ?intoxicants? and ?convenient time? (As shown in the Aidid Safar translation), then God may be prohibiting intoxicants but not as directly, because other things he has prohibited, such as pig meat, are not addictive, so God?s commandment is more easily accepted, but in the case of the addictive things, intoxicants and gambling, God (may he forgive me and show me the right way if I am wrong), has taken more of a softer approach, by ?encouraging? us to avoid it instead. I know it all seems a bit pish posh me talking about God being lenient with his commandments, but the reason I say this is because in 5091, God questions those who have intoxicants, by saying ??will you not then abstain?? But then again, God does say that he has made the Quran clear and easy to understand, so I think it?s unlikely that this explanation of a ?softer approach? is the right one.
With thanks to brother Layth for providing direct references to the Quran, I would like to share my views on the following verses.
2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say ?In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit.? And they ask you how much are they to give, Say ?The excess.? It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
My comments on this verse would be that if the bit that says ?but their harm is greater than their benefit? is reworded (if in line with the Arabic of the Quran) as ?but their harm is IN THE greater than their benefit?, if it read as such, then the concept of moderation would clearly be justified. I don?t know myself; perhaps Arab experts out there could clarify the issue. Secondly, this same verse goes on to talk about giving the excess. Now it makes sense how intoxicants could be given in charity, but ?gambling? or ?convenient time? cannot, so I think this may be the point that justifies drinking in moderation. And then in the same verse he goes on to say that ?it is thus that God clarifies the revelations?. This is in itself a sign for me personally, which shows that God has talked about ?the excess? on purpose, and that purpose is in support of moderation.
1667 And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
This verse says ?wine and a good provision?, so does this mean that wine is a good provision, or does it mean that wine is on one side, and good provisions are on the other? I?m not sure about this; I request others that are capable to shed some light on this.
443 O you who believe, do not come near the contact-method while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying...
This verse directly deals with ?intoxication? and not the ?intoxicant?, so I don?t think this can be used to justify the prohibition of intoxicants.
590-91 O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful. The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the contact-method. Will you be deterred?
I find it quite clear that a mistranslation has occurred in this ?Progressive Muslims? translation, because we can?t possibly avoid the devil, its with us all the time, what we can do is ignore the devil or avoid falling to the devils persuasions. The final part of 591 (will you be deterred/will you then desist/will you then refrain) is what leads me to think that because intoxicants and ?gambling?/ ?convenient times? are addictive, God is using the persuasion technique rather than direct commandments of prohibition.
4715 Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with ? rivers of wine that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey.
This is perhaps the verse that wants me to try the stuff out lol, especially when it?s associated with rivers of strained honey.
Like I said, these as my personal opinions on this issue at the moment, for which I?ve given supportive and unsupportive criticisms. I?d like to hear what you all have to say.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
Peace Natu,
I don't think there is prohibition on getting intoxicated/high/drunk/jammed or whatever people call it because Quran has only prohibited approaching ritual prayer/commitments while drunk. but not the actual getting drunk.
About the 'mistranslation', this is a big topic and PM have commented on it in their book the natural republic. If it is a mistranslated verse then it's a big one.
I think people who look to make somat prohibited find one way or another to do it, always.
I don't like the concept from traditionalists about 'makrooh', disliked, discouraged etc. This book is clear and God doesn't beat around the bush, does He?! I think GOD is straight up in this TEXT.
Peace
Nural
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Peace all,
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The quran states in 2219 that "Khamr" includes "big Ithm" and Benefits (Nafaa)
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In 733 God made the "Ithm" haram.
==> The usage of Khamr which is big ithm is haram
==> The usage of Khamr which has benefits is not haramNote in 2219 is said BIG ithm, but is not said big benefits.
Best regards,
sabo -
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Peace.
I've just come up with another possible explanation. Clearly, as seen in this thread some of us do drink,andsome of us don't aprove of it.
Perhaps thats what is supposed to happen! Those who see benefit in drinking will drink, and those who think they will be harmed or won't be abl to control themselves won't. End of story.
Havingmnitain the fact that we cannot say it is harmful just becuase society tells us that. So it is right to drink and to stay away from drinking. We have been given the freedom! This is now my view. Any criticisms welcome.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
Peace,
I think that many societies and people have overlooked the benefits of general drinking in moderation outside medicine. There explanation for the only benefits is medicinal (that is all I have heard do far)! If that was so then health would have been mentioned, but it wasn't. The benefits are clear in moderation and the harms are also clear in Britain with binge drinkers and also alcoholics. Families that drink wine at home and are brought up drinking wine at dinner tend not to have alcoholics whereas the ones that never have touched it before might experiment and abuse. I think that education on this is important. God outlined the sins in the Quran and told us that there is great harm/sin in alcohol, personally I haven't seen this harm in people who drink moderately but I have definately seen the harm in the ones who abuse.
If the sins that are cause are clearly shown in society, they are the problems that must be tackled and banning alcohol will just create more problems. But controlling consumption laws, and ideas revolving around drink is a better step towards rightouesness. Also the great harms are not when one is drunk because intoxication is mentioned and we are told not to approach prayer when in this state, but we are not told that it is WRONG. The great harm is clear and is not necessarily caused when people are drunk because some people don't get angry and cause trouble in this state. It maybe harmful if done too often and maybe not if done less but prohibiting this in society requires a lot more reason. People will go mad! Have you watched what happened to homer when he couldn't drink! Funny episode!
Peace
Nural
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Dear Natu
I disagree with you and others who claim that drinking or producing alcohol is not prohibited by the Quran. Some people think there is a SINGLE magic word for prohibiting something, and it must be the word HARAM. However, there are many ways and words to prohibit something. For instance, according to this literal and premise-deep logic, the Quran does not prohibit lying and cheating since it does not use the magic word HARAM and its derivatives in connection with lying and cheating. So, it is okay to lie and cheat in moderation lol
I have discussed this issue in Turkish extensively, and I have little time now. However, I will write my reasons in a hasty outline format. So, excuse the quality of my answer. I would like to inform you that I adamantly oppose the criminalization (not regulation or restriction for public safety reasons) of producing and drinking alcohol, and all other intoxicating drugs.
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Without complete abstaining, new generation becomes susceptible to the harms of alcohol.
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Alcoholics do not start as alcoholics and when they start, they do not think that they will become alcoholic one day. They usually start in moderation!
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About ten percent of those who start drinking alcohol will become alcoholic and most of them will become addicted to alcohol.
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The economic, social, emotional, and medical harm of alcohol in our societies is grave and is mostly ignored. Most of the crimes such as rape, domestic abuse, petty crimes, drug addiction, reckless driving and accidents are attributed to the usage of alcohol.
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The cost of alcohol is shared by the society in terms of paying high auto and medical insurances.
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I would not like to put myself at RISK of becoming one of those alcoholics, or drunk drivers.
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I consider my brain and faculty of judgment the greatest blessing from God; and I consider deliberately impairing it to be an act of unappreciation.
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What is moderation? Today's moderation is not tomorrow's moderation. There is a slippery slope to trouble. Why sit on the top of the slide that occasionally branches out and one of its branches might lead me to a pile of garbage. Why try such a slide with something that will reduce the grip of hands, the vision of eyes, and the judgment of minds?
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Why directly and intentionally support an industry that costs the society so much.
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Go ask a mother who lost her child to a drunk driver, a driver who initially started drinking alcohol with the excuse now you use?
Finally, why in the world someone would drink alcohol without getting drunk? The main reason is perhaps to join the crowd. So, drinking a sip of alcohol, in my personal book, is a sign of weakness and lack of confidence. I prefer to teach my kids not to sip a beverage, even in moderation, which turn many people to morons and criminals and condemn many people to troubles and disasters, just to please some other people. I will tell my kids never try cigarette, marijuana, or heroine, even once in moderation.
Similarly, I will tell my kids to stay away from drinking urine and shit even once and stay their mouth away even from a drop of them, though we do not have millions of dead, handicapped, depressed, sick, miserable, imprisoned, abused, date-raped and bankrupt people because of drinking too much urine or eating too much shit
Peace,
Edip -
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Peace Edip,
I understand your reasoning behind this but I disagree on the prohibition because the prohibitions are clearly outlined about what we can eat and drink and not eat and drink.
What is your explanation for when God adresses
'You who believe do not approach you salat/commitements when you are drunk/intoxicated.
The Quran also says that in Heaven the believers can enjoy all the benefits from wine without the negatives, why can't we enjoy the benefits now? There is warning but I don't see prohibition.
Can you please clarify your position and understanding of verses above. I hope to understand you better because I think that this alcohol prohibition is a bit of Hislam. Maybe you can post us a bit of this 'deep logic' theory, there is harm in eating too much food but we can do it and it's not prohibited. But your strict stance on this issue is something I wish to understand, I think it's unreasonable but then again maybe my mind is impaired!
- Without complete abstaining, new generation becomes susceptible to the harms of alcohol.
The harms of all things will always be here, the harms of eating too much food or junk food! We can argue with this sort of reasoning for a long time but I am interested in the Quran's standing and I see that it understand this topic very well, the harms are obviously there, but that doesn't mean ban it. Would you ban horror films and computer games that are violent?
- Alcoholics do not start as alcoholics and when they start, they do not think that they will become alcoholic one day. They usually start in moderation!
There is always people who get mislead and abuse things. There are some that abuse religion, should we ban that?! Alcoholics, if they are sinning then they are the sinners, they CHOSE to abuse the drink, haram or not anybody can work out that consuming anything excessively is harmful especially a drink that intoxicates!
- About ten percent of those who start drinking alcohol will become alcoholic and most of them will become addicted to alcohol.
ten percent become alcoholics but the 90% enjoy the good drink and behave, to focus onto the 10% is bordering on ignorance because your overlooking a 90% majority of people who use it responsibly. You will always get sinners and abusers and bad people no matter what you ban or do or say. But why should a person like me who has not harmed anyone be subject to the same sanctions of these criminals? Why can't I enjoy a glass of Brandy(interestingly made by mediterannean muslims) and benefit from the benefits and enjoy the blessing of the drink? God says all good things are for the believers, if someones reasoning makes them think that wine is good for your heart and a a glass a day is harmless then they have the right to enjoy. I can see no reasoning or prohibition from Quran, God hasn't done this because knows the Truth of the matter.
Note although my avatar has Homer Simpson, I am not an alcoholic nor do I drink much, but then again I don't see the problem of being intoxicated aslong as no one is harmed. People are responsible for their actions, let them be free, I think this is an important freedom. Prohibition of something like wine may scare many non-muslims away because they don't see the reasoning. They agree with the bad but they see the good and complete prohibition will make them disregard Islam for another system based on false traditions.
I agree with your other points but I don't think prohibition would solve it, did it work in America in the 1920s? It's been tried and tested and it didn't work therefore I seriously don't think it is God's solution or way.
Peace
Nural
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Peace.
Below is an extract from an earlier post of mine...
- The cost of alcohol is shared by the society in terms of paying high auto and medical insurances.
Very thoughtful, as well as this, I might add that alcohol (from what I know) is quite an expensive thing is it not, so getting into a habit might cause domestic financial problems as well!
- I would not like to put myself at RISK of becoming one of those alcoholics, or drunk drivers.
I understand Edip?s concern about the risks involved, but we risk falling over when we walk, surely we can?t stop walking. Having said that, the perception of risk and worry is entirely subjective and down to each individual him/herself, so this cannot be used as a valid argument.
- I consider my brain and faculty of judgment the greatest blessing from God; and I consider deliberately impairing it to be an act of unappreciation.
This does seem pretty logical to me, but couldn?t the drinking of alcohol be a relaxant, (or whatever the term is?), so might it be good for someone to take an emotion medicine? Again, the issue of what exactly happens comes up, it may make you think with an unclear mind, but does it make you think illogically. Like the ay we see in dramas on TV (I?m not a soap fan btw, I just happen to always see people sat in pubs drinking away every time I?m flicking through the channels), most of the people we see are actually in good state of mind, perfectly sociable, relaxing, unstressed, so I wouldn?t see drinking alcohol as a deliberate impairment of the body, but abuse of the alcohol I would consider as such.
- What is moderation? Today's moderation is not tomorrow's moderation. There is a slippery slope to trouble. Why sit on the top of the slide that occasionally branches out and one of its branches might lead me to a pile of garbage. Why try such a slide with something that will reduce the grip of hands, the vision of eyes, and the judgment of minds?
True say! Possibly, the more you drink with the aim of stopping at the point of moderation, the further away that point appears (because you have a false sense of confidence apparently).
And an extract from our man Edip's post...
Someone who is looking forward to become 21 and join the impaired-wagon stated that alcohol is a relaxant.
Edip! Please forgive me if I am mistaken to think that you were referring to me in the above quote from your post since nobody else has mentioned 'relaxant', but I would like to make a few things clear. I do not drink, and I have no intention to do so, for several reasons which include the the fact that I will obey my parents, I don't find time to engage in such activity, and I'm fine as I am without it, although I do appreciate that in the same way as music and movies are classed as past-times and entertainment to increase hapiness, drinking may also have similar effects, though I cannot tell becuase I haven't tied it. Many people here do not drink even if they believe that Alcohol is not prohibited.
My suggestion not to you alone but other members as well would be that we leave aside personal impressions of 'drunkards' and look at the arabic of the Quran. In just the same way we accept the prohibition of pork even though it appears harmless, we should also not look down on alcohol becuase of our ideas external to the Quran. The Quran is clear, and if we work hard enough looking at the arabic involved we will God willing reach a sound conclusion, rather than listening to someone who likes drinking or someone who condemns the taste without even trying it. My aim in contributing is to provide a balnace of views as can be clearly see in the above extract from my post, rather than to promote a view. So I would like to say that it is somewhat unfair to say that I am looking forard to becoming 21 to join the impaird-wagon. Edip, your a good man, but lets not get personal here, the issue is related to all monotheists.
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Peace Edip,
I agree with all your points (1-10) raised and most of your post as well. By this, I mean, I have never had, nor plan to have any alcohol. I will also discourage my children or anyone else for that matter into starting to drink alcohol, moderation or not.
Having said that, I would like to ask you this question, Are you saying that alcohol is "haraam". A simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice. I understand your time constraints )
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Peace all,
I think a look at 2219 and 733 could give us the answer and with this post i am repeating my self.
2219 says that Khamr has great Ithm
733 says that Ithm is haram.I am interested in your views about the connection between 2219 and 733
Best regards,
sabo -
Peace sabo,
Peace all,
I think a look at 2219 and 733 could give us the answer and with this post i am repeating my self.
2219 says that Khamr has great Ithm
733 says that Ithm is haram.You are right but we have to consider the whole verse to get a full picture
2219 says that IN the "Khamr" is great Ithm/harm and a benefit (manafiAAu) for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit
733 says that Ithm is haram.The God doesn't say the "Khamr" is a great harm but "IN it is great harm" , consequently only the harm caused by the "khamr" is prohibited.
The God commands us to avoid it (590) which mean avoid the harm IN itFor example, if someone drink and injures or kills a person while driving despite it is forbidden to drive with an alcohol rate in the blood.
The God doesn't prohibited this product because IN it a benefit (manafiAAu) for mankind. We cannot deny its benefit for medecine, health.
In the same way, In the livestock is benefits (manafiAAu) (165)
The God forbids harm/ithm and not benefits and good provisions )
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Say ?Who has forbidden the nice things that God has brought forth for His servants and the good (alttayyibati) provisions (alrrizqi)?? Say ?It is for those who believe in this worldly life, and it will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection? It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.
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And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good (hasanan) provision (rizqan). In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
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Salam Marie,
I agree with you, just i have some observations
The verse 2219 says great ithm and doesn't say great benefits.
The same verse also says that their ithm is greater than the benefits.In 590-91 we are also told why there is ithm in khamr and gambling. These verses are indicator for me that the ithm happens from drinking and not by other forms of usage. Since something can cause great ithm not only to the individual but to the soceity i would ban it or at least make its usage controlled not as it is now completely available without restrictions at all.
Besides 1667 is talking about grapes being good provisions not khamr )
Best regards,
sabo -
These verses are indicator for me that the ithm happens from drinking and not by other forms of usage.
I agree but have some disagreement. I gave an example in my last post, if someone drives after drinking, he can cause harm for himself and for others. But if he abide by the law which restricts driving with an alcohol rate in the blood, he could avoid a lot of harm.
Besides 1667 is talking about grapes being good provisions not khamr )
- And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine (sakaran) AND a good (hasanan) provision (rizqan). In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.
Of course the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes are good provisions but 1667 speaks about what we make/extract from these fruits which is a also good provisions.
We make "sakar" from the fruits of the palm and the grapes, "sakar" is translated as wine and wine is khamr. This is why the God asked us "O you who believe, do not come near the salat while you are drunk (sukara).."(423).I think And between sakaran and a good provision means two supplementary informations like in 165
165. And the livestock He created them for you, in them is warmth AND benefits, and from them you eat.The God uses the same word "khamr" when He describes the Paradise promised for the righteous
- Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of wine (khamrin) that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?
I do not drink any alcohol, but I don't think that it is a bad provisions if it comsummated moderately and without causing any harm for oneself and for the community, IMHO.
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Salam Marie,
I think the real harm is outlined also in 591 ... Its not only a matter of driving drunk or whatever. Its a satanic tool as clearly seen in 590 and the last phrase of 591 is a question which can be answered with yes/maybe/no ...
What else could be the aim of such question after the elaborate explanation of the harm of alcohol in 590-91?
Would a real believer answer this question with No? Or with maybe? or with hmmm I will stop but i will drink in moderation and gamble only for 2-3 euros?
regarding 1667 if i tell you the t.v. broadcasts porno and good things does it mean that porno is good things? Just curious
Best regards
sabo -
Sabo, Marie
Sabo wrote
Would a real believer answer this question with No? Or with maybe? or with hmmm I will stop but i will drink in moderation and gamble only for 2-3 euros?
So you believe that someone who touches alcohol cannot be a real believer?
What then shall i think of all these "muslims" in the country where i live which use mainly one type of vinegar...with alcohol in it... lol But for sure drinking is haram.... winkMarie, i would just like to thank you again for your always enlightening post
Salam all,
Elke -
Hello Elke,
So you believe that someone who touches alcohol cannot be a real believer?
And what would be your answer to the question in 591 ?? I am interested to 'read' your answer.
What then shall i think of all these "muslims" in the country where i live which use mainly one type of vinegar...with alcohol in it... But for sure drinking is haram....
Well I don't really care what they do. I am discussing a point in the Quran and not people in the country you live in, they can call themselves whatever they like and they can do whatever they like, its out of the areas of my interest. Just feel free to care about them, don't let my answer discourage you
Best regards,
sabo