Guys lets all get tipsy - Alcohol is not Haram

marie

These verses are indicator for me that the ithm happens from drinking and not by other forms of usage.

I agree but have some disagreement. I gave an example in my last post, if someone drives after drinking, he can cause harm for himself and for others. But if he abide by the law which restricts driving with an alcohol rate in the blood, he could avoid a lot of harm.

Besides 1667 is talking about grapes being good provisions not khamr )

And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine (sakaran) AND a good (hasanan) provision (rizqan). In that is a sign for a people who comprehend.

Of course the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes are good provisions but 1667 speaks about what we make/extract from these fruits which is a also good provisions.
We make "sakar" from the fruits of the palm and the grapes, "sakar" is translated as wine and wine is khamr. This is why the God asked us "O you who believe, do not come near the salat while you are drunk (sukara).."(423).

I think And between sakaran and a good provision means two supplementary informations like in 165
165. And the livestock He created them for you, in them is warmth AND benefits, and from them you eat.

The God uses the same word "khamr" when He describes the Paradise promised for the righteous

Is the example of Paradise; that the righteous have been promised with rivers of pure water, and rivers of milk whose taste does not change, and rivers of wine (khamrin) that are delicious for the drinkers, and rivers of strained honey, and for them in it are all kinds of fruits, and a forgiveness from their Lord; like that of those who abide in the Fire, and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines?

I do not drink any alcohol, but I don't think that it is a bad provisions if it comsummated moderately and without causing any harm for oneself and for the community, IMHO.

sabo

Salam Marie,

I think the real harm is outlined also in 591 ... Its not only a matter of driving drunk or whatever. Its a satanic tool as clearly seen in 590 and the last phrase of 591 is a question which can be answered with yes/maybe/no ...

What else could be the aim of such question after the elaborate explanation of the harm of alcohol in 590-91?

Would a real believer answer this question with No? Or with maybe? or with hmmm I will stop but i will drink in moderation and gamble only for 2-3 euros?

regarding 1667 if i tell you the t.v. broadcasts porno and good things does it mean that porno is good things? Just curious
Best regards
sabo

Elke

Sabo, Marie

Sabo wrote

Would a real believer answer this question with No? Or with maybe? or with hmmm I will stop but i will drink in moderation and gamble only for 2-3 euros?

So you believe that someone who touches alcohol cannot be a real believer?
What then shall i think of all these "muslims" in the country where i live which use mainly one type of vinegar...with alcohol in it... lol But for sure drinking is haram.... wink

Marie, i would just like to thank you again for your always enlightening post

Salam all,
Elke

sabo

Hello Elke,

So you believe that someone who touches alcohol cannot be a real believer?

And what would be your answer to the question in 591 ?? I am interested to 'read' your answer.

What then shall i think of all these "muslims" in the country where i live which use mainly one type of vinegar...with alcohol in it... But for sure drinking is haram....

Well I don't really care what they do. I am discussing a point in the Quran and not people in the country you live in, they can call themselves whatever they like and they can do whatever they like, its out of the areas of my interest. Just feel free to care about them, don't let my answer discourage you

Best regards,
sabo

Nural_Amin

Peace,

Can one of you abstainers please explain to me why GOD tells the believers to stay away from 'salat' when drunk if it is haram in the first place to be in such a state?!

I think that this is a indicator that drinking is not haram, a clear indicator. God knows there are faithful believers that enjoy a good drink, and warns us about the devil who can mislead easily with alcohol as a tool. Salat is also understood to mean commitements and in this context it makes more sense that God tells us not to approach our COMMITEMENTS when we are drunk or intoxicated because we can ruin and make things worse.

Why do you people assume that everyone makes trouble when drunk?! You support prohibition when it has been tried and tested. Certain foods have been prohibited, running blood too but alcohol is not their and I am not gonna classify it as a class A drug because of you opinions! I am going to enjoy the blessings and benefits and avoid the harms, God wants us to live and enjoy the blessings of the good and tasty things around. So let those who enjoy a good drink, do just that. If they do kill or harm then thats another story, and the individuals fault not the drinks. you can't blame a drug for your actions because it was the individuals first intention to use it.

Nural

Edip_Yuksel

Here, I will try to respond to some of the objection to my condemnation of alcohol and other intoxicating drugs.

Yes, I do believe that alcohol is prohibited. God calls intoxicants and gambling "the deed of devil," and asks us to stay away from it. Some who have been addicted to alcohol are trying to carve a silly hole out of this clear prohibition "we are told to stay away from Satan not from his deed." Yes, stay away from Satan but do what he does! I am not sure whether the carver of that hole wrote that defense while he was moderately intoxicated.
Alcohol is not something that our body needs for nutrition. Neither its taste is good, as far as I hear from those who use it.
The benefit of the wine comes from the grape juice not the alcohol. A recent Yale study demonstrated a correlation flaw in the so-called studies showing the benefit of wine against heart diseases. Besides, beer and wine industry spends Billions of dollars annually to promote their products and part of the promotion is sponsoring "scientists" to come up with good news about their products. I have heard the same story of benefits of wine, years after years cooked and presented by the media as "fresh" news.
Another quoted the verse telling believers not to approach Salaat while intoxicated. Considering all the verses regarding intoxicants, one cannot understand it but as an acknowledgement of reality that some believers might fail to obey God's order regarding to stay away from intoxicants. This verse reminds them not to commit a second sin by trying to communicate with God in that lousy mental state. Besides, the verse also indirectly gives permission to the community of muslims not to accept intoxicated people to masjids. The Quran provides rules regarding how to treat a believer who commits certain crimes such theft or adultery, etc. This does not mean that the Quran condones or permits such acts; it merely means that the muslim community are not the community of angels.
Another objection was on behalf of the 90 percent of those who "enjoy" alcohol or gambling. The critic ignores the magnitude of harm committed by the ten percent. If he googles about the magnitude and diversity of harms caused by this ten percent, then he would not underestimated it. Besides, he ignores the fact that the great majority of those who do not become clinically alcoholic or problem gamblers suffers and causes to suffer many health, emotional and financial problems because of use of intoxicants and gambling. If ornamental lamps burned one or two houses out of ten, I bet no one would buy those lamps. Alcohol is not as necessary as driving cars or walking in the street. We may accept the risk involved in using cars for transportation or walking to the marked, but why should we accept the variety of risks involved in intoxicants? Why not listen to God who informs us that the harm of alcohol outweighs its benefits? Why not stay away from the deed of devil? Why try to find an excuse to sit on the slippery slope that may lead you to destruction? We are normally not born craving for alcohol, and there is no reason to join the bandwagon of drunkards.
I personally find it torturous to be in the company of bunch of drunkards, semi-drunkards, quarter-drunkards, moderately drunk or moderately compromised people. Most of my relatives in the USA drink during family gatherings, parties, and celebrations. Minute by minute, I lose their sharp minds for a good conversation. Many of them claim to be moderate drinkers, but after a few sip, their intelligence Quotient drops. In a short time, I find myself among a bunch of fools who are unable to carry a simple philosophical, political, or personal conversation. I end up in the corner reading a book or magazine. In the beginning, they used to insist that I should drink as they do. It is curious how pushy they become. As if, they are inverse mullahs. (I know, this is the logical fallacy of invoking pity Well, let it be; it is still better than many arguments coming from the so-called moderate drinkers!)
A "moderate drinker" objected my anti-alcohol arguments by saying "I agree with your other points but I don't think prohibition would solve it, did it work in America in the 1920s? It's been tried and tested and it didn't work therefore I seriously don't think it is God's solution or way." Perhaps while rushing into sipping his Brandy, my impaired friend missed my statement in that article "I would like to inform you that I adamantly oppose the criminalization (not regulation or restriction for public safety reasons) of producing and drinking alcohol, and all other intoxicating drugs." As I indicated in my article, when I say alcohol is prohibited by the Quran, I do not mean legal prohibition, I mean religious or moral prohibition to individual.
Someone who is looking forward to become 21 and join the impaired-wagon stated that alcohol is a relaxant. May be, but it is also a stimulant. Besides, there are many other relaxants without the side effects of impairing your judgment, damaging your liver, slurring your tongue etc. Alcohol is a depressant by medical authorities. Here are some research news about depression and alcohol In any given one-year period, 9.5% of the population, or about 18.8 million Americans suffer from a depressive illness. (NIMH) 35 million Americans each year suffer from SAD according to JAMA. (Energy Times, Jan. 199 Alcohol makes this worse. One in five Americans are depressed or unhappy, and report high levels of stress, anxiety and sadness. (Reuters Health, HealthCentral.com - Nov. 2000) Alcohol has been found to lower serotonin and norepinephrine levels. ("Food and Mood," Natural Medicine Chest, Conquer Depression Without Drugs, Let's Live magazine, Jan. 2000). "Alcohol is a depressant. People with depression shouldn't drink alcohol", says Sherry Rogers, MD, in her 1997 book on "Depression." She says that studies show that doctors miss diagnosing over 66% of the people who are depressed. Alcohol temporarily blunts the effects of stress hormones. It typically leaves you feeling worse than ever because it depresses the brain and nervous system. One study looked at people who consumed one drink a day. After three months abstinence, their scores on standard depression inventories improved. (The Brain, "You Can Control Your Emotional Wellness," USA WEEKEND, Jan. 3, 1999, Jim Thorton, health reporter)
Someone reminded me the verse, "And from the fruits of the palm trees and the grapes you make wine and a good provision. In that is a sign for a people who comprehend." (1667). The verse does not say wine is a good provision; to the contrary, it sites good provision as alternative to wine. The verse states a fact. Some people make wine form fruits and some eat it as fruit or make juice out of them.
My liking alcohol to urine was criticized. In fact, I challenge them that if urine were going to make people drunk, people now would be drinking their urines after mixing it with soda and fruit juices. I do not have a scientific comparison between the physiological harm of consuming the same amount of urine and alcohol, but I think they do come close. So, my question and challenge is serious; their answer should not reflect the cultural biases or superstition what distinguishes urine from alcohol for the consumption purposes by humans?

Peace,
Edip

Nural_Amin

Peace Edip,

I have not sipped or drank any alcohol in the past week, so don't worry about my being intoxicated. Although any the drug hasn't previously affected my ability to have a reasonable discussion.

Yes, I do believe that alcohol is prohibited. God calls intoxicants and gambling "the deed of devil," and asks us to stay away from it. Some who have been addicted to alcohol are trying to carve a silly hole out of this clear prohibition "we are told to stay away from Satan not from his deed." Yes, stay aAlcohol is not something that our body needs for nutrition. Neither its taste is good, as far as I hear from those who use it. way from Satan but do what he does! I am not sure whether the carver of that hole wrote that defense while he was moderately intoxicated.

I read from the Quran and learnt that God does not have a strict stance on alcohol like the mullahs and yourself, I did this while I my self was an abstainer. If you want to explain to us what the Quran says then I would prefer to see your explanation or translation of the versese you are talking about and also show me where the confusion comes that we are told to avoid the devil.

Alcohol is not something that our body needs for nutrition. Neither its taste is good, as far as I hear from those who use it.

As you hear from those who use it?! If they don't enjoy the drink then they are using it to get mashed, thats your problem, don't associate with people like that if you have a problem with that, there are a few of us that actually have the drink because of the taste, the Quran talks about delicous wine for the drinkers in heaven, the wine in this world to some of us a taste of heaven.

Your right in saying we don't NEED alcohol, but the benefits of drinking it in small amounts are definately there, the harms are definately there. The alcohol that God says is beneficial to us, Is God talking about alcohol in operations and injections etc or in my opinion He is talking about the drinking form of alcohol.

You shouldn't judge a drink based on other people's opinions, there are thousands of different wines and spirits etc. If you haven't tried them or smelt any decent wines then how can you judge the taste and everything else, if people are saying that they like the taste then thats what they like.

Alcohol at high levels has an intoxicating effect, at a moderate level it only loosens people up and calms them down after a hard time. thats my personal view but just because you can't see that benefit, it doesn't mean it's not there. Most of the alcoholics in my home town come from the Sunni communities that forbade the drink which made it more tempting! God did not forbid the drink anywhere, therefore people shouldn't forbid it as though God did in the way they are doing. Even if you use your deep un intoxicated logic, you still can't show that it is prohibited in the way pork is and running blood is. God left this topic in this manner because God knows the Truth of the matter.

I disowned this harsh stance on alcohol because such a stance can't be attrbuted to the MOST HIGH. Alcohol is a tool that the devil uses.

Another quoted the verse telling believers not to approach Salaat while intoxicated. Considering all the verses regarding intoxicants, one cannot understand it but as an acknowledgement of reality that some believers might fail to obey God's order regarding to stay away from intoxicants. This verse reminds them not to commit a second sin by trying to communicate with God in that lousy mental state. Besides, the verse also indirectly gives permission to the community of muslims not to accept intoxicated people to masjids. The Quran provides rules regarding how to treat a believer who commits certain crimes such theft or adultery, etc. This does not mean that the Quran condones or permits such acts; it merely means that the muslim community are not the community of angels.

Personally I think that the word salat in this instance would be better translated as 'Commitements' because it makes more sense here. We shouldn't approach our jobs while intoxicated or the other commitements in our lives. Therefore God simply advises the believers to use very little for the pleasure of drinking that is even if they choose to drink any at all.

Another objection was on behalf of the 90 percent of those who "enjoy" alcohol or gambling. The critic ignores the magnitude of harm committed by the ten percent. If he googles about the magnitude and diversity of harms caused by this ten percent, then he would not underestimated it. Besides, he ignores the fact that the great majority of those who do not become clinically alcoholic or problem gamblers suffers and causes to suffer many health, emotional and financial problems because of use of intoxicants and gambling. If ornamental lamps burned one or two houses out of ten, I bet no one would buy those lamps. Alcohol is not as necessary as driving cars or walking in the street. We may accept the risk involved in using cars for transportation or walking to the marked, but why should we accept the variety of risks involved in intoxicants? Why not listen to God who informs us that the harm of alcohol outweighs its benefits? Why not stay away from the deed of devil? Why try to find an excuse to sit on the slippery slope that may lead you to destruction? We are normally not born craving for alcohol, and there is no reason to join the bandwagon of drunkards.

The 10 percent you are talking about are lost because even if they assumed alcohol is forbiden they would still be dependant on the drug. They knew when they transgressed the limits, and they know when they began causing harm, they will continue unless the law deals with them, the people that use drugs irresponsibly are bad people and they will continue to get intoxicated and be a nusiance, they know when they transgress their limits.

You may have personal limit or restriction but God did not give that to everyone because He knows that other people can benefit from the drink.

My liking alcohol to urine was criticized. In fact, I challenge them that if urine were going to make people drunk, people now would be drinking their urines after mixing it with soda and fruit juices. I do not have a scientific comparison between the physiological harm of consuming the same amount of urine and alcohol, but I think they do come close. So, my question and challenge is serious; their answer should not reflect the cultural biases or superstition what distinguishes urine from alcohol for the consumption purposes by humans?

I agree some people will because they are only interested in getting intoxicated but I personally prefer the taste, God tells the believers to enjoy the good things that are not prohibited in life and wine can be a pleasure until limits are transgressed and some people maybe better off abstaining because there is little benefit for them.

Peace
Nural

Fahad1

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http//www.geocities.com/sociohistory/alcohol.htm

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marie

Peace be upon you Sabo, Elke, all,

Salam Marie,

I think the real harm is outlined also in 591 ... Its not only a matter of driving drunk or whatever. Its a satanic tool as clearly seen in 590 and the last phrase of 591 is a question which can be answered with yes/maybe/no ...

What else could be the aim of such question after the elaborate explanation of the harm of alcohol in 590-91?

Yes the God explains the harm which is in intoxicants in the light of 590-91
"The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling" (591)
But I think we shouldn't stop our reading at 591 because 593 complete our understanding

There is no sin upon those who believe and do good works for what they eat 1) if they are aware and believe and do good work, then 2) they are aware and believe, 3) then they are aware and do good; God loves the good doers.

Those who believe and do good works , bear no guilt for what they eat and drink and partake (of the Lawful). The God insists on this condition "to be aware, believe and do good work" 3 times.

Consequently we cannot put in the same in the same bag those who are aware....and those who arne't.

regarding 1667 if i tell you the t.v. broadcasts porno and good things does it mean that porno is good things? Just curious

The TV is a good example like intoxicants, in it bad programms and good programms, if one is aware, he will choose only the good programm and vice versa.

Marie, i would just like to thank you again for your always enlightening post

You are most welcome

Elke

Dear Sabo,

you wanted me to give my opinion about the question in 5/91.

Part of the answer is given by Marie just above.
But i also believe that one has to consider all verses relating to a subject before deciding
A verse, certainly mentionned above, enjoins us not to come near salat when intoxicated, another talks about the benefits and the harm in intoxicants (and gambling) - but true, the harm being greater than the benefit. And then there is 590-93. Some people understand this as the prohibition of alcool in qur'an being gradual. I don't share this point of view. All of qur'an is valid - what varies are the situations in life...

And - as Marie always says the God knows best!

Regards,
Elke

jonny_k

...A verse, certainly mentionned above, enjoins us not to come near salat when intoxicated,...

Khi- Salam. Yes but tht verse by no way means tht coz GOD forbade us 2 go intoxicated 2 salat therefore it must be allowed 2 do so outside salat. A person maybe a drug addeict or hes under medication which requires alcohol or mediceine with strong alcohol. Also someone might have pumped him full with drugs, without his knowledge, at a party. There r so many cases. N this is the case i believe GOD says tht if u r in such a condition dont goto salat. Not tht u r allowed 2 get intoxicated. Also the word 'sukaara' means in a state of unclear consious. Therefore i believe this verse cld also apply 2 the situation when one is very tired n cannot keep himself awake. Such situation wont allow him 2 perform salat properly. GOD Bless!

Nural_Amin

Peace,

Lol, it's amusing trying to imagine the scenarios you mentioned idmkhi, maybe God should forbid idiots from going to that sort of party where they may get pumped with drugs!

If it's allowed for medical use in drinking form then whoever uses it might have a reason but then your gonna rule it out as un-medical because you all have a problem with people enjoying themselves.

The Quran speaks about wine in the hereafter, are you going to abstain then? why should you enjoy it?

Nural

Natu

FRIENDS!

Once again, we have flown into a debate on opinions instead of a discussion on the Quran.

Where is the objectivity? Can't we just make a list of verses and go through them all one by one, instead of going round and round in circles?

Please forgive me for my expression, but I do not approve of this random hurly burly in the least. We all came to be here because we believed that the Quran is clear. Where has that belief gone now? If we all accept that, then why can't we act a bit more mature and settle things over the Quran itself? We'll make conclusions on each verse, and then move onto the next till we all have a clear picture. As on THE THREAD of the salat section (Please check it out if you haven't seen it already... http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3377), I shall act as a chairperson for the debate. On this topic though I'm afraid I cannot take either side because both arguments appear to have their weaknesses, even though I began this thread a long time ago when I first registered, thinking that the general consensus was against the prohibition of alcohol, my position is now neutral on this topic.

Instead of stretching this debate out onto other forums (Edip, with 19.org), why don't we simplify the issue and talk about it in one thread to reach one unified conclusion, rather than chatting what our personal opinions are of people who drink and people who don't. The way forward is close analysis of the words of the Quran, not debate over how someone is holding onto sectarian beliefs, or how someone is trying to fiddle their way out into being able to drink.

The verses I have come up with are as follows...

2219
443
590-91
1236
1241
1572
1667
222
4715
8325

We shall discuss each of these verses in turn, beginning with 2219. If anybody feels that another verse that I may have missed should be discussed here, then please send me a PM and the verse will be added to the above list. I thank all brothers and sisters in advance (Especially our rare member Edip - please stick about here for a while my friend, your presence is much appreciated).

2219 (Start of discussion)

Progressive Muslims Translation
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say "In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit." And they ask you how much are they to give, Say "The excess." It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.

Aidid Safar Translation
They ask you about the wine (1241) and convenient times (2280). Tell them, "In both of them there are great misdemeanours and some benefits for mankind. And the misdemeanour is even greater from its benefit". And they also ask you, "What is contribution". Tell them, "To pardon (7199)". That is how God exaplains to you His signs so that you use your common sense,

Before we move on, I would request people to provide their understandings of Aidid Safar's (admittedly controversial and imperfect) translation of the following words. Then we may continue the discussion on the understanding of this verse.

"Wine (1241)" - Does this work out or does it have to be an intoxicant?

"Convenient times" - Does this work out?

"To pardon" - I personally fail to understand the meaning of this portion.

Nural_Amin

Peace Natu,

Natu, good man, you got us back on track! God Willing we will find clarification in this study rather than division amongst us.

The verse above is clearly telling us that there is more harm than benefit, there is no doubt in that. We can see that there is more harm done to our societies by alcohol than good, I think we can all agree on this statement overall.

But there is still no sign of forbidding or prohibition or avoiding the actual drink. We are warned about the harms/bad outweighing the benefit. There has been some cross-referencing been done for the word to mean sin also. Therefore in wine/alcoholic beverages there is great sin and some benefit. That does not mean that drinking it is a sin fullstop it simply means what it says. Same with benefit, doesn't mean drinking it is beneficial. Both of these positives and negatives are involved in wine/alcoholic beverages.

Natu when it says 'khamr', I think it means intoxicants rather than just wine because the word could mean 'to cover', so anything that slows the mind can fall into the category (thats not all drugs, is it?). Why can't cocaine be used before war to increase stamina?! It could help, who knows?

Most translations I have read translate 'some benefit' but the PM is simply benefit, that's a big difference. Which is write? Come on linguists!

Nural

Wakas

peace NA, Natu, All,

one does not need to be a linguist to work out what it is.

i cannot recommend the following site enough. i use it extensively
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/Quran_study_tools.htm
by comparing several trans. we can see "some" is omitted and bracketed in some, thus its unlikely to be in the Arabic. M&S Ahmed's literal trans. is pretty decent tool for this. and its likely to be plural.

I think its a good idea going through one ayat a time. From my past experience of translations, mass cross-referencing / verification is often required, unfortunately. i cannot emphasise that point enough.

Wakas

Natu

Thanks Wakas, the linked website is excellent!

I think its a good idea going through one ayat a time. From my past experience of translations, mass cross-referencing / verification is often required, unfortunately. i cannot emphasise that point enough.

Thats a fair point, but its the mass cross referncing that gets us anywhere doesn't it. So I don't think it should matter if it take a long time to do these things, becuyase the end conclusion will be the truth (As long as we keep comitted to the search, until all verses have been discussed).

jonny_k

Lol, it's amusing trying to imagine the scenarios you mentioned idmkhi, maybe God should forbid idiots from going to that sort of party where they may get pumped with drugs!

Khi- Salam. 1st this was only one of the many egs i gave. 2ndly GOD doesnt forbid us 2 go 2 a normal or better SEEMINGLY normal party which unfortunately later turns out 2 be a mess without our prior knowldedge.

If it's allowed for medical use in drinking form then whoever uses it might have a reason but then your gonna rule it out as un-medical because you all have a problem with people enjoying themselves.

Khi- I dont have anything against it if it's used 4 medical purpose n i think i made this clear in my previous post.

The Quran speaks about wine in the hereafter, are you going to abstain then? why should you enjoy it?

Khi-< In heaven the conditions r entirely different. Also read
Cups of pure drinks will be offered to them.
Cups of pure drinks will be offered to them.
Never polluted, and never exhausted.
Therefore the wine in heaven will have not have tht mind covering effect n thus theres no prob. Moreover the only utterance there will be peace n there wld be no more conflicts. Therefore ur comparison of paradise n earth is absurd since paradise has very different laws natural as well as spiritual. GOD Bless!

Nural_Amin

Peace,

Wakas thank you very much for that webpage. I think most of us are willing to go through all this cross referencing to get to the bottom of this matter, it is important because there are two extreme views and we need to find a way possibly a middle way but thats obviously in favour of me rather than the strict dudes.

Whatever the truth is we shall seek it and GW find it.

Nural

Honkey

deleted for name-calling & baseless commentary.

author recommended for banning / formal&final warning

Natu

Good evening QSX/Honkey, it looks like you made a typing error when you were registering this time round lol lol lol lol lol. Mods are requested to kick him out, I can't be bothered with him this time, we've got better things to use our energy on - he's clearly not here to understand belief in one God.