Salaam

IsaMuslim

Salaam alaykum everyone,

After being here for about three months, I am, God willing, finally introducing myself )

I am a 21 year old convert muslim, and I live in Italy. I come from a non-practicing Catholic family, so I wasn't really religious, I rejected the notion of trinity since I was young I was something between an Agnostic Theist and a Deist, although I called myself agnostic. I knew that God was here. Then God planned and decided to take me on this path. I met Sunni muslims that talked to me about Islam, and talked about monotheism and the belief in one God, and immediately I was interested, so I started reading the Qur'an and researching online resources and after a few months I decided to join them, so I went to a mosque and I converted to Sunni Islam. After a short time, thanks to God, I started noticing very strange things that didn't make any sense to me. I started making question to an Imam of the mosque such as

why did the prophet change the ablutions described in the Qur'an? He replied me that there are the "fardh" ablutions and the "sunnah" ablutions.
why is not the punishment for stoning to death in the Qur'an? He told me that it is prescribed and there is proof that the prophet did it...
Then God made me find in Google the first Quran-Alone website, which was quransmessage.com, and I was astonished for the amount of material it had, and I started reading every article one after the other. Then I found many others (e.g. quran-islam, submitters, quranaloneislam, quranicpath, islamawakened...) as well as YouTube channels (e.g. QuranVsHadith, Quranic Centric, Sam Gerrans), until I got here.
My current opinions are that
Qur'an has always the last say, this is the Book that will clear all the contradictions
The Bible should not be understimated because it still contains the words of God
The Hadith should not be followed, as it is mostly fabrication of men, but still there might be some truth in it, like happening of events, that could be useful for a historical research
What is the problem in praying the Salah the same way the Traditionalists do? I even heard people saying that doing Salah is like practicing pagan rituals...

I am thankful to God for bringing me here, and it's nice to meet you all.

Rilum

Salaam,

Welcome )

good_logic

Welcome to the forum IsaMuslim.
You probably agree that religions are man made, all of them contain their own "hadiths"

http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/simple-and-universal-message/
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Jafar

welcome

Nice to know an Italian Catholic is actively participating in the forum.

You are still young and your opinion will continue to change as time progress.
Don't worry God will gives you His revelation, all you need to do is to just ask and ponder.
Trust your own conscience as God speaks through it.

coeurame

Salam IsaMuslim,

Thank you for sharing your story with us. It's very interesting to learn about people's different journeys in life. Alhamdulillah God guided you to His path. )

I was born in a Sunni family, but after finding many ahadith that contradict clear verses in the Quran, I realized that I cannot rely on hadith for guidance. So now I follow the Quran alone.
I agree with what you said in the end. And, concerning prayer, I have come to the same conclusion as you. Personally, I don?t see the problem with praying the same way the traditionalists do. Praying 5 times a day does not contradict any verse in the Quran. And, in case of uncertainty, I?d rather pray more than less. After all, prayer is a blessing and a mercy from God.

I am glad you created this post. I?m also new to this forum, so this gave me a chance to introduce myself as well. ;D

May God bless you and I hope you have a wonderful day!

Peace.

The_Sardar

welcome

Nice to know an Italian Catholic is actively participating in the forum.

Uhh....he said he was a Catholic not a practicing one

Jafar

Uhh....he said he was a Catholic not a practicing one

Doesn't matter...
If he's actually living in Italy, then he will be heavily influenced by Catholicism.
Just like if he's living in Saudi Arabia, then he will be heavily influenced by Wahabism.

What label he claimed himself as social identity doesn't matter..

IsaMuslim

Salaam,

Welcome

Thanks brother Rilum

Welcome to the forum IsaMuslim.
You probably agree that religions are man made, all of them contain their own "hadiths"

http//www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/simple-and-universal-message/
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Thanks brother.
I agree that religions, intended as set of practices, are man-made.
I think that inventing rituals and practices is something we as a nation/tribe of people instintively do because we want to find a way to express ourselves to God. That is why I think that different kind of rituals, dances, music etc. are born.
Then someone which thinks he is more intelligent than the others arrives, and creates false things to worship, and he invents a way to gain something from it, and people gets misguided easily.

welcome

Nice to know an Italian Catholic is actively participating in the forum.

You are still young and your opinion will continue to change as time progress.
Don't worry God will gives you His revelation, all you need to do is to just ask and ponder.
Trust your own conscience as God speaks through it.

Thanks for the advice brother I often listen to Him through it, and I think that this is what He calls the "Ruh" in the Scriptures (i.e. Quran 5822).
BTW I am not a Catholic at all... ;D ???

Reflect on whether also interpretations can be fabrications of men, and whether what you read and believe to be what is says isn't.

Thanks brother for this advice. Yeah sadly any translation that I read has always some kinds of problem; that is why when stating something I almost always check the other translations and the root dictionaries.

Salam IsaMuslim,

Thank you for sharing your story with us. It's very interesting to learn about people's different journeys in life. Alhamdulillah God guided you to His path.

I was born in a Sunni family, but after finding many ahadith that contradict clear verses in the Quran, I realized that I cannot rely on hadith for guidance. So now I follow the Quran alone.
I agree with what you said in the end. And, concerning prayer, I have come to the same conclusion as you. Personally, I don?t see the problem with praying the same way the traditionalists do. Praying 5 times a day does not contradict any verse in the Quran. And, in case of uncertainty, I?d rather pray more than less. After all, prayer is a blessing and a mercy from God.

I am glad you created this post. I?m also new to this forum, so this gave me a chance to introduce myself as well. ;D

May God bless you and I hope you have a wonderful day!

Peace.

Thanks and welcome to the forum you too
Yeah it is true that in the end that doesn't matter, the important is following God alone.
https//quranicwarners.org/prayer/

Uhh....he said he was a Catholic not a practicing one

Lol, actually I also didn't say that ;D I said only that my family is non-practicing Catholic.
So I don't know how Jafar interpreted it to mean that I am Catholic ;D

Doesn't matter...
If he's actually living in Italy, then he will be heavily influenced by Catholicism.
Just like if he's living in Saudi Arabia, then he will be heavily influenced by Wahabism.

What label he claimed himself as social identity doesn't matter..

Hmm... I think you're wrong in this.
In Italy the priests don't go around to check who is sleeping on the left side ;D
Italy and Saudi Arabia are two totally different countries, maybe the only things in which the Church influences the daily life here are the bells ringing daily (like in muslim countries you hear the Adhan) and the rest day being Sunday...

Actually here is much worse than you may think; people forgot God, I only see old ladies going to the Church, young boys only care about wasting time and doing sin and immorality.
The place where I live is much more similar to the city of Lot, than to a Catholic city.

The_Sardar

Lol, actually I also didn't say that ;D I said only that my family is non-practicing Catholic.
So I don't know how Jafar interpreted it to mean that I am Catholic ;D

Oh my mistake.

coeurame

Thanks and welcome to the forum you too
Yeah it is true that in the end that doesn't matter, the important is following God alone.
https//quranicwarners.org/prayer/

Thank you for linking this website. The information they provided concerning prayer is very interesting and thought-provoking.

Salam.

IsaMuslim

Thank you for linking this website. The information they provided concerning prayer is very interesting and thought-provoking.

Salam.

No problem
I don't follow 7 prayers, I pray 3 times a day, but I posted this link to show that there are even non-hadithers, who fear God alone, who pray as much as 7 times a day by their interpretation of the Scripture. Following God alone is the important, not the number of ritual prayers, that is just an external, phyisical, ritual that is made to benefit us and remind us of God, because God doesn't need it.

IsaMuslim

Oh my mistake.

Don't worry )

coeurame

No problem )
I don't follow 7 prayers, I pray 3 times a day, but I posted this link to show that there are even non-hadithers, who fear God alone, who pray as much as 7 times a day by their interpretation of the Scripture. Following God alone is the important, not the number of ritual prayers, that is just an external, phyisical, ritual that is made to benefit us and remind us of God, because God doesn't need it.

Agreed. The quality of the prayers matters a lot more than the quantity. And whether they pray 3 times, 5 times, or 7 times a day what's important is to dedicate some time in our day to remember and worship our Creator. )

I've noticed two things related to this

All of these interpretations have one thing in common they all ascribe an odd number of prayers. So, they all have a "middle prayer", that the Quran mentions as particularly important. (Had they been even numbers, they wouldn't have a middle.)
The numbers 3, 5, and 7 remind me of the speculations that people made concerning the number of the companions of the cave (in Sura 1. In that Sura, God makes it clear that their number is not important. What's important is understanding the examples given in the Message He sent down to us.

Jafar

Hmm... I think you're wrong in this.
In Italy the priests don't go around to check who is sleeping on the left side ;D
Italy and Saudi Arabia are two totally different countries, maybe the only things in which the Church influences the daily life here are the bells ringing daily (like in muslim countries you hear the Adhan) and the rest day being Sunday...

It used to be.. and not only in Italy.. nearly in the entire europe..
And it's not only to check who is sleeping on the left side...

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

Actually here is much worse than you may think; people forgot God, I only see old ladies going to the Church, young boys only care about wasting time and doing sin and immorality.
The place where I live is much more similar to the city of Lot, than to a Catholic city.

Not going to Church doesn't mean that people has 'forgotten God'.
But I do understand why you developed such notion / idea..

Have I mentioned to you earlier that since you are living in Italy then you will be heavily influenced by Catholicism, whether you realize it or not, whether you admit it or not.

Jafar

There's probably not much difference in immorality today than 500 years ago,

Comparing now to 500 years ago and Italian peninsula , there is much difference in 'immorality'.

16th century was the time when Catholic church are heavily selling "indulgences" (A letter guaranteed to pardon any sins) for $$$. Also the time of an orgying pope which in any dimension defeat the "bunga bunga" party that Berlusconi is having. And also the time when there was a pope who did mass murdering of his political enemies and also Inquisition towards the heretics and apostates.

That is why "People not going to church" is in no way a measurement of morality or immorality.
16th century was the time where most of the common people in Italian peninsula (and also Europe) truly believe that the Catholic church was the one and only true agent of God on earth as thus holy and sinless.
Nowadays only few people in Italy really believe as such.

Which caused a proper "check and balance" to the Catholic church.
Catholic church, compared to 500 years ago has made a lot of improvement.
We can say that they are now more 'mature' and 'better' compared to 500 years ago.
They did that through learning and most importantly admitting all of the mistakes that they have made in the past.

Jafar

What you wrote was basically the rhetorical aim with my statement, Jafar.

Then you need more clarity on context (time, place, subject).
The morality of Catholic Church has far improved now compared to 500 years ago.
The sanity level of Catholic Church has far improved now compared to 500 years ago.
The average sanity level of Italian common citizens has far improved now compared to 500 years ago.

There were times where the morality of Catholic Church is comparable to today's ISIS.
And the sanity level of Catholics is comparable to today's Islamist Fanatics.

IsaMuslim

Agreed. The quality of the prayers matters a lot more than the quantity. And whether they pray 3 times, 5 times, or 7 times a day what's important is to dedicate some time in our day to remember and worship our Creator. )

I've noticed two things related to this

All of these interpretations have one thing in common they all ascribe an odd number of prayers. So, they all have a "middle prayer", that the Quran mentions as particularly important. (Had they been even numbers, they wouldn't have a middle.)
The numbers 3, 5, and 7 remind me of the speculations that people made concerning the number of the companions of the cave (in Sura 1. In that Sura, God makes it clear that their number is not important. What's important is understanding the examples given in the Message He sent down to us.

Thanks for sharing this analogy with Surat al Kahf, this is actually interesting.
I do Salat 3 times a day, but there are other groups who follow 2 daily Salat, and also those that don't believe that Salat is a specific action.

It used to be.. and not only in Italy.. nearly in the entire europe..
And it's not only to check who is sleeping on the left side...

https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition

Yes I understand that, but as you already know today it's much different than the 12th century.
For example, sharing these informations on forums like this would have been punished by execution to death.

Not going to Church doesn't mean that people has 'forgotten God'.
But I do understand why you developed such notion / idea..

Have I mentioned to you earlier that since you are living in Italy then you will be heavily influenced by Catholicism, whether you realize it or not, whether you admit it or not.

Sorry for misunderstanding, when I said that people don't go to Church I did not mean Church = God.
What I really wanted to say is the fact that most people prefer transgressing and sinning instead of searching knowledge related to God. Church certainly does not represent God, but among the many idolatry and fabrications it also promotes some concepts that may stimulate one who is already inclined to believe in God, to search more. For example the Almighty God, the Merciful God, the prophets of God, hoping in God's help, messages of love and peace towards the others. But I don't really know what is going on in Churches because I actually went there just a few times as a kid.

Comparing now to 500 years ago and Italian peninsula , there is much difference in 'immorality'.

16th century was the time when Catholic church are heavily selling "indulgences" (A letter guaranteed to pardon any sins) for $$$. Also the time of an orgying pope which in any dimension defeat the "bunga bunga" party that Berlusconi is having. And also the time when there was a pope who did mass murdering of his political enemies and also Inquisition towards the heretics and apostates.

I agree.

That is why "People not going to church" is in no way a measurement of morality or immorality.
16th century was the time where most of the common people in Italian peninsula (and also Europe) truly believe that the Catholic church was the one and only true agent of God on earth as thus holy and sinless.

I agree.
But I meant that immorality is widespread anyways, whether you take into account the amount of people going to Church or not. You see it in the way the youth dress, act and speak.

Nowadays only few people in Italy really believe as such.
Which caused a proper "check and balance" to the Catholic church.
Catholic church, compared to 500 years ago has made a lot of improvement.
We can say that they are now more 'mature' and 'better' compared to 500 years ago.
They did that through learning and most importantly admitting all of the mistakes that they have made in the past.

But sadly it's still pushing the trinity idea, even when other groups such as Jehova's Witnesses or also Muslims have debunked it from the Scripture itself...

The word immoral is pretty much an abused or bad term though, for who the heck decides what is immoral?

Of course murder is bad, but the term of immorality is still loose. Morale implies that one has the discipline to uphold some kind of law, but then who has the right to impose laws on people, especially when trespassing on them doesn't harm others and it's just violations of how chaste one should be.

For example, it's lame to have laws against adultery as it doesn't harm someone else, a third part, except of course they were married to another, but isn't wrecking the marriage punishment enough. It's more like what goes around comes around.

God decides what is immoral, because He knows best.
And God knows while you do not know. (2419)
I think that the law of adultery in the Qur'an is really wise; if you consider the whole surah 24 together it is really meaningful.

First, I think that such a punishment should not be carried out by the state or the authorities, but rather by those who know those who are involved (family members, community, ...)

This verse gives me the idea that this punishment is aimed at generating shame rather than pain, and as a warning to the others.
242 ... And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.

The punishment for the slanderer is 4/5 of the punishment for adultery.
244 And those who accuse the emancipated females, then they do not bring forth four witnesses, you shall lash them with eighty lashes, and do not accept their testimony ever; and those are the wicked.

Both have the right for the punishment to be canceled if they swear that they are truthful.
246 And those who accuse their spouses, but they have no witnesses except for themselves, then the testimony of one of them is to be equivalent to that of four witnesses if it is sworn by God that he is being truthful.
247 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon him if he is of the liars.
248 And the punishment will be averted from her if she bears witness four times by God that he is of the liars.
249 And the fifth shall be the curse of God upon her if he is speaking the truth.

The punishment by God is on every one who supported the slander.
2411 Those who have brought forth the false accusation were a group from among you. Do not think it is bad for you, for it is good for you. Every person among them will have what he deserves of the sin. And as for he who had the greatest portion of it, he will have a great retribution.

The whole purpose of all that is to avoid the spread of immorality among the people. If you see what happens today because of it you will understand why is it important to avoid it.
2419 As for those who enjoy that immorality spreads among those who have believed, they will have a painful retribution in this world and the Hereafter. And God knows while you do not know.

Then 2430-31 enjoins the modest dress code on the believers, again to minimize immorality and adultery.

2427-29 tells believers not to enter houses without permission

2458-59 tells us about the importance of privacy, He gives us the advice to tell both "those who are committed to by your oath" and those who have not reached puberty and your children who did, to ask you permission before entering in your room in the times in which you probably are naked or partially naked.

2461-64 is about the importance of respecting eachother

In my opinion this whole surah is connected and wants to show us which is the best way to live in a community.

Jafar

I do Salat 3 times a day, but there are other groups who follow 2 daily Salat, and also those that don't believe that Salat is a specific action.

And is it a problem?
You should then ask on why you do salat in the first place?

But I don't really know what is going on in Churches because I actually went there just a few times as a kid.

Then why not found out what's really going on in Churches?

But I meant that immorality is widespread anyways, whether you take into account the amount of people going to Church or not. You see it in the way the youth dress, act and speak.

Youth dress, act and speak???

To be honest I saw more immorality in the way the religious leaders and politicians act and speak..
They will then try to control and influence the naive youth to do their bid in order to support their agenda..

But sadly it's still pushing the trinity idea, even when other groups such as Jehova's Witnesses or also Muslims have debunked it from the Scripture itself...

Changes came over time, yet I don't see any "immorality" in the 'trinity' idea..
Personally I do think it's ridiculous.. but it's harmless... and by learning their history I understand why they developed such idea.
Compare that to the hypocrisy, arrogance, ignorance and hatred widespread in the religion of Islam.
Which is the religion that I was born into.

God decides what is immoral, because He knows best.

Since God is also All Powerful, He also decide what everything will do, think and act too isn't it?
As such any morality or immorality that everyone and everything does it's all in accordance to His plan and will too isn't it?

coeurame