Fitna/Test/Trial (54:27, 74:31, 17:60..) ?
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Peace Marie,
In my opinion the verse is very clear - the number 19 is a 'fitna' for the people who reject/kafaroo...
I would be more intersted to know 'why' it will be their fitna?
You seem to think 9128-129 is the answer.
I am not so sure it is (though there is a relation in a way).
Peace Layth,
The rejection of 9128-129 is one of several deviations based on the code 19, for example
- Those who claim they are messengers because the numerical value of their name ....is X * 19
-5 prayers based on the code 19
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predict the future like the false predictions claimed by Rashad Khalifa when he was alive..
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Those who claim that there are other number (7, 14..etc) inside the reading and so on...
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The code 19 is based on the CONJECTURE derived from the interpretation of the reading and leads to the CONJECTURES.
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I think the story of Salih is about respect for animals. We're not scolded for eating or killing animals (or in this case camels), but its the manner in which we do it that is frowned on in Islam. And the way the camel died in this particular example was very insulting, it was without purpose and it was not done in God's name. Salih was trying to teach people respect for other living beings
Peace Beatnik,
The story of Salih is not about animal right exclusively. It's about reasonable use of environmental resources. The water from which the camel was drinking must have been important for irrigation, and the grass or crops it was feeding from were sources of profit for the community. Or the grass reserved for the animals could have been utilised for cash crops for example.
The unbelievers begrudged even the small amount the camel needed because of their desire to exploit the natural environmental resources themselves.
So the verses are about environmentalism and equitable use of our resources; as well as recognising the right of animals to use those resources.
So it has many themes the major one of which is greed of the unbelievers.
Peace.
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Peace Beatnik,
The story of Salih is not about animal right exclusively. It's about reasonable use of environmental resources..
Peace truth,
I agree with you, each example has many lessons naturally, usually about peaceful co-existence. I usually lump animals/environment into the same category, both are inspired by God and do their thing without question, humans, having free wil,l are a more loose lot, as we well know.
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Salam sabo, all,
Peace all,
We can also view the comparison between the she-camel and the "code 19" differently
The majority rejected both signs and the minority accepted.
Best regards,
sabothe count of 19 and the code 19 are two distincts things IMO
- The count of 19 is only a fitna for those who reject..
- The code 19 is a man made sign and an illustration of the test of the count 19.
- The she-camel is both a visible ayat/sign for the believers and fitna for those who reject the divine message and challenge His commands.
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Salam Marie ,
I agree that The count of 19 is only a fitna for those who reject..
Those who reject are the majority who can not see signs and naturally they won't call it a sign. Its a natural process and consistent with the system of God.Best regards,
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Peace Marie! Pretty good job! I congratulate you...
nice aproach...
It is very rare to see that one is using other verses of the book(where similar theme is more decisively or detaily explained) to throw more light on 7431....people ussualy read the passage 7430-35 or 7431 in isolation and then they subjectively interpret it as Code 19 or numerico-mathematical God
s sign embeded into the book....this based on writings of Rashad Khalifa and his folowers.......True, the code believers sometimes use other verses to explain 7431 but these verses that they use are equaly if not more ambiguous from 7431 in the respect of the theme discussed...what they actually use is their man-made, subjective and personal intepretation of these verses and then they, equaly subjective, force its interpreation upon 7431 ... they have stolen The Gods exclusive right to interpret His words...they have shut up The Almighty!!!...and you didnt... may He honor you with even more of His light........
According to my understanding, the first par of the verse "And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels" should grant certainty to those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt
why restrict this only to the first part of the verse...why do separate it from what is previously stated(that is unlike from what you have stated in the other post in this thread?)
the whole passage and chapter is connected ....waw/and at the begining of 7431 may testify to this...it may be a sign that what is previously stated is a part of the example which unbelievers and sick hearts do not understand or ridicule....
The whole chapter is a compact whole...
The essence and the prevailing focus of the story is the God
s message in general with hell as a prototype and cornerstone of it- as a punishement promised for disbelief and not upholding of the Gods message....His promised punishement and the Gods message in general is what is convincing and faith increasing....as well as unbelievers` confusion...
The functions in 7431 imo are NOT caused solely or (do not rely or build solely upon) their number being set as but a fitnah for those who have rejected .....
Word "li" that means "to/in order/that", after the word fitnah, may rely or build upon all that is previously stated(or some pivotal point in it) in the chapter and this is linguistically valid( see for example how 5141 and 43 rely or build upon 5137)....This is even more true or sensible when one knows importance of the context and holistic approach in regards of the appropriate studying of the God`s book.... paying attention to context and holistic approach can never be overemphasised in underestanding the book of The God
best wishes,
Zlatan
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Peace
here are some other translations of the word fitnah from the dictionaries i have acces to
excuse
confusion
torment
torture
punishement
fascination
intrigue
Also, here are few different readings and /or meanings of the word "`&iddat(h)" ...
it may be read as "&idat(h)"(with one d) -infinitive or verbal noun from the root w- &(ayn) -d and it means promising and promise or threat and threating(note that this is different root from &-d-d but they share the same basic unwovelised form...
It can be read as uddah the same root as &-d-d but different word and it can mean both equipement and/or readiness...possible meaning -fire or saqar previously mentioned is an equipement of wardens of the fire.... or readiness of fire wardens is allusion to them being described as stern and severe and strictly performing the tormenting assigned by The God as described in 666
Word &iddat -number, count or counting also can mean numerous many, much, several according to Hans Wehr dictionary... This book says that word &iddat can be used attributively and cites example of rijal &iddah translating it as numerous men, if i recall well....this may totally change the meaning of iddata/uhum(i am not yet enough familiar with the grammar to claim this is a meaning that is gramatically valid in the construction that is used in the verse )...use of 19 may be idiomatical(similar to idiomatical use of No 7) to denote numerousness or big number of malaikahs over the fire as punishement or torment (all valid meanings of fitnah) for those who have rejected....
Besides , Marie, ayman , anyone other knowlegeable in arabic....what do you think can the verse be translated as "we havent assigned a number of them(and not their number) except as fitnah punishement for those who have rejected(in hell)"?
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace Zlatan, all,
The functions in 7431 imo are NOT caused solely or (do not rely or build solely upon) their number being set as but a fitnah for those who have rejected .....
You are right, both "And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels" and "and "We have made their AAiddat to be a fitna" are for those who have rejected...
here are some other translations of the word fitnah from the dictionaries i have acces to
excuse
confusion
torment
torture
punishement
fascination
intriguePunishement make more sence in the light of the context of the chapter 74, 5113-14 illustrate well this meaning
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The Day they ordeal/will be punished upon the Fire.
Yawma hum AAala alnnari yuftanoona -
?Taste this ordeal of yours/your punishement; this is what you asked to be hastened.?
Thooqoo fitnatakum hatha allatheekuntum bihi tastaAAjiloona
It can be read as uddah the same root as &-d-d but different word and it can mean both equipement and/or readiness
Good point!
946, 224 and 3131 illustrate this meaning
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And if they had gone with you then they would have made necessary preparation for it, but God disliked them coming forth, so He made them lag behind, and they were told ?Stay with those who have stayed.?
Walaw aradoo alkhurooja laaAAaddoo lahu AAuddatan walakin kariha Allahu inbiAAathahumfathabbatahum waqeela oqAAudoo maAAa alqaAAideena -
And if you cannot do this; and you will not be able to do this; then beware the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, it has been prepared for the rejecters.
Fa-in lam tafAAaloo walan tafAAaloo faittaqooalnnara allatee waqooduha alnnasu waalhijaratu oAAiddat lilkafireena -
And be aware of the Fire that has been prepared for the rejecters
Waittaqoo alnnaraallatee oAAiddat lilkafireena
what do you think can the verse be translated as "we havent assigned a number of them(and not their number) except as fitnah punishement for those who have rejected(in hell)"?
To make is a more fitting translation than to assign or to appoint for "jaAAalna" in 7431, IMO
I translate it as
- And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; and We have made their preparation/equipement.. to be a punishement for those who have rejected...
and that makes SENCE for me twisted
Brother Zlatan you did a good job D
Keep good works
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Peace Marie!
Peace Zlatan, all,
The functions in 7431 imo are NOT caused solely or (do not rely or build solely upon) their number being set as but a fitnah for those who have rejected .....
You are right, both "And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels" and "and "We have made their AAiddat to be a fitna" are for those who have rejected...
yes, i agree, but what i was thinking of is that others functions increasing in faith, searching for or attaining conviction etc that comes after li might build not solely upon (or result from) malaikah being wardens of the fire and u/iddatuhum being nothing but a fitnah but rather(or additionaly) upon some pivotal point stated before in the chapter....please allow me to remind you once again to check, if you havent checked it yet, this is very important, how 5141 and 43 rely or build upon the pivotal statement in 5137 and not to sentences or verses that come directly before them...(imo there are plenty of such constructions in the book....)
In the same manner the other part of 7431, starting from li/that/in order to be convinced(or search for conviction) those who are given the book etc... build upon or rely upon some pivotal point stated before..... maybe on the verse that mentions saqar or that describes it as lawwahatun this particularly due to certain meanings of lawwahatun ...it comes from verb laha ..it can mean(among other meanings) to shine, to flash, to glimmer, to sparkle, to shimmer; to appear to (imo it may imply giving signals, threating,
speakingto human)......Muhamad Asad translate it as making all truth visible to mortal.....(isnt it then logical that hell making all truth visible is increasing faith or gives conviction or incites to search for it...)Or it build upon 742 come out and warn-he is to warn us with the ayats/messages of The God then some increase in faith and/or convince and others are being exposed as bad people...
whatever it be the basic and prevailing pattern of the chapter(before, during and after 7430-35 !) imo is ...the great reading/quran is a warning/reminder=> its hell promised to those who reject its precepts and wont to submit to The Almighty is of its main doctrines/messages=>upon knowing about this message sincere people recognise it and fear God and the promised punishement =>they run to uphold the message thus they become convinced or increase in faith....
According to the book there are two or more aspects of the faith or conviction...sometimes it might not be a simple and/or subjective impression or feeling....but is rather an achievement that comes along with obeying...
unbelievers and hypocretes wont submit or doesn not feel/think that the message is from the god or can not understand and/or ridicule how can anyone can be guided with such a naive, barbaric or brutal things as hell torturing or such a trivial thing as 19 malaikahs being upon the hell(they might be stuck upon it and/or are bewildered by the minute details of the great as well as horryfying doctrine/message )... and even this, but not only this, is increasing cause the faithful recognise the pattern of their behaviour as per 226 and 9127
what God want(or could want) with mathal like this is not a question of intelectual inquiry but of being prevented from understanding it or ridiculing....
see also 82 and 20113 and 132 to see how the convinction is attained and faith increased
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace Zlatan,
The functions in 7431 imo are NOT caused solely or (do not rely or build solely upon) their number being set as but a fitnah for those who have rejected .....
You are right, both "And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels" and "and "We have made their AAiddat to be a fitna" are for those who have rejected...
yes, i agree, but what i was thinking of is that others functions increasing in faith, searching for or attaining conviction etc that comes after li might build not solely upon (or result from) malaikah being wardens of the fire and u/iddatuhum being nothing but a fitnah but rather(or additionaly) upon some pivotal point stated before in the chapter....please allow me to remind you once again to check, if you havent checked it yet, this is very important, how 5141 and 43 rely or build upon the pivotal statement in 5137 and not to sentences or verses that come directly before them...(imo there are plenty of such constructions in the book....)
OK I see what you mean, thanks for the clarification.
As you stated, there are several of such constructions in the great reading. Your assumption is plausible but we can find other verses where ?li/to/in order/that"? (2228 ) is a result from what is said in 2228. This is also the case for 202-3-
We have not bestowed upon you this Qur'an to cause you any hardship.
Ma anzalna AAalayka alqur-ana litashqa -
But as a Reminder to the reverent, those who stand in awe of the Creator.
Illa tathkiratan liman yakhsha
In the same manner the other part of 7431, starting from li/that/in order to be convinced(or search for conviction) those who are given the book etc... build upon or rely upon some pivotal point stated before..... maybe on the verse that mentions saqar or that describes it as lawwahatun this particularly due to certain meanings of lawwahatun ...it comes from verb laha ..it can mean(among other meanings) to shine, to flash, to glimmer, to sparkle, to shimmer; to appear to (imo it may imply giving signals, threating,
speakingto human)......Muhamad Asad translate it as making all truth visible to mortal.....(isnt it then logical that hell making all truth visible is increasing faith or gives conviction or incites to search for it...)Or it build upon 742 come out and warn-he is to warn us with the ayats/messages of The God then some increase in faith and/or convince and others are being exposed as bad people...
I see li/that/in order to be convinced in 7431 in the same way than ?li? in 2228 and 202-3, IMHO.
The article ?hiya; feminine? refers to saqar/the fire in ?wama hiya illa thikra lilbashari / And it is but a reminder for mankind (7431). Saqar in the same way than the fire we trike out (5671-74) is a reminder for us..
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Have you noted the fire you kindle?
Afaraaytumu alnnara allatee tooroona -
Did you establish its tree, or was it We who established it?
Aantum ansha/tum shajarataha am nahnualmunshi-oona -
We rendered it (feminine)a reminder, and a useful tool for the users.
Nahnu jaAAalnaha(feminine) tathkiratan wamataAAan lilmuqweena -
You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.
Fasabbih biismi rabbika alAAatheemi
There are several reminders in the Reminder; the Reading.
The retribution for the believers and the rejectors is the absolute truth and should grant us certainty. We can see a similar situation in the chapter 96
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5692. But if he is one of the deniers, the strayers.
5693. Then an abode of boiling water.
5694. And a burning in Hell.
5695. This is the absolute truth.
5696. You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.what God want(or could want) with mathal like this is not a question of intelectual inquiry but of being prevented from understanding it or ridiculing....
see also 82 and 20113 and 132 to see how the convinction is attained and faith increasedAgree, I think there are several reminders and subjects which refer to the certainty inside the Reading.
Peace
Marie -
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Peace brother Zlatan, sister Marie, all,
here are some other translations of the word fitnah from the dictionaries i have acces to
excuse
confusion
torment
torture
punishement
fascination
intrigueI think that we need to ask ourselves, what is a practical example of a "fitna(t)".
For example, we are told that our money and children are "fitna(t)". This is an example that all of us can relate to.
People get obsessed with growing and counting money and it becomes like an addiction. Similarly, people get obsessed with their children and spoil them, etc.
Thus, as far as worldly matters, I see fitna(t) as something people get obsessed with.
The fitna of counting 19 is emperically verifiable as we see those afflicted by it obsessed with counting 19 everywhere.
Also, here are few different readings and /or meanings of the word "`&iddat(h)" ...
3ida(t) occurs in
946, 936, 937, 3349, 2184-185, 1822, 651, 654, 74313349 makes it clear that the meaning of "3D(t)" is clearly not "number"
since the women that we divorce do not owe us a "number" but they owe usa "count". They have to count three menstrual cycles. This doesn't mean that women only have three menstrual cycles or that they only get three in a year. What this means is that out of the number/3DD/ of
menstrual cycles from the time of divorce, they only owe us the
count/3D(t)/ of three.651 talks about being accurate with the count/3D(t)/ . There is
nothing accurate or inaccurate about any number. Accuracy becomes an
issue only when there is measurement (i.e. counting). So once again, we
see that 3D(t)/ is what we measure/count out of a larger
population (see 936-37, 651-4) or estimate from possible alternatives
(see 1822).Notice the same word used in 946 to indicate what we count in
preparation for battle. For example, we prepare by counting supplies
based on the military objective. We don't just get any absolute number
of supplies.Notice that the same word is used in 7431 to indicate that the
"fitna(t)"/trial is in counting 19 and not in the number 19 itself.
There is no trial inherent in any abstract number but there is trial in
our actions.I hope this helps and I apologize for the late response but in the coming few months I will not be as active on the forum as I have a busy travel schedule.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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peace Marie, all
Peace Zlatan,
The functions in 7431 imo are NOT caused solely or (do not rely or build solely upon) their number being set as but a fitnah for those who have rejected .....
You are right, both "And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels" and "and "We have made their AAiddat to be a fitna" are for those who have rejected...
yes, i agree, but what i was thinking of is that others functions increasing in faith, searching for or attaining conviction etc that comes after li might build not solely upon (or result from) malaikah being wardens of the fire and u/iddatuhum being nothing but a fitnah but rather(or additionaly) upon some pivotal point stated before in the chapter....please allow me to remind you once again to check, if you havent checked it yet, this is very important, how 5141 and 43 rely or build upon the pivotal statement in 5137 and not to sentences or verses that come directly before them...(imo there are plenty of such constructions in the book....)
OK I see what you mean, thanks for the clarification.
As you stated, there are several of such constructions in the great reading. Your assumption is plausible but we can find other verses where li/to/in order/that" (2228 ) is a result from what is said in 2228. This is also the case for 202-3-
We have not bestowed upon you this Qur'an to cause you any hardship.
Ma anzalna AAalayka alqur-ana litashqa -
But as a Reminder to the reverent, those who stand in awe of the Creator.
Illa tathkiratan liman yakhsha
In the same manner the other part of 7431, starting from li/that/in order to be convinced(or search for conviction) those who are given the book etc... build upon or rely upon some pivotal point stated before..... maybe on the verse that mentions saqar or that describes it as lawwahatun this particularly due to certain meanings of lawwahatun ...it comes from verb laha ..it can mean(among other meanings) to shine, to flash, to glimmer, to sparkle, to shimmer; to appear to (imo it may imply giving signals, threating,
speakingto human)......Muhamad Asad translate it as making all truth visible to mortal.....(isnt it then logical that hell making all truth visible is increasing faith or gives conviction or incites to search for it...)Or it build upon 742 come out and warn-he is to warn us with the ayats/messages of The God then some increase in faith and/or convince and others are being exposed as bad people...
I see li/that/in order to be convinced in 7431 in the same way than li in 2228 and 202-3, IMHO.
The article hiya; feminine refers to saqar/the fire in wama hiya illa thikra lilbashari / And it is but a reminder for mankind (7431). Saqar in the same way than the fire we trike out (5671-74) is a reminder for us..
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Have you noted the fire you kindle?
Afaraaytumu alnnara allatee tooroona -
Did you establish its tree, or was it We who established it?
Aantum ansha/tum shajarataha am nahnualmunshi-oona -
We rendered it (feminine)a reminder, and a useful tool for the users.
Nahnu jaAAalnaha(feminine) tathkiratan wamataAAan lilmuqweena -
You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.
Fasabbih biismi rabbika alAAatheemi
There are several reminders in the Reminder; the Reading.
The retribution for the believers and the rejectors is the absolute truth and should grant us certainty. We can see a similar situation in the chapter 96
.
5692. But if he is one of the deniers, the strayers.
5693. Then an abode of boiling water.
5694. And a burning in Hell.
5695. This is the absolute truth.
5696. You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.what God want(or could want) with mathal like this is not a question of intelectual inquiry but of being prevented from understanding it or ridiculing....
see also 82 and 20113 and 132 to see how the convinction is attained and faith increasedAgree, I think there are several reminders and subjects which refer to the certainty inside the Reading.
Peace
MarieBasicaly I agree, nice thinking, its so good to see someone quoting a lot of verses and allowing The God to explain His messages....
p.s.
I was just pointing out to more potential roads leading to the same direction..... basically it boils down to the same...
Peace, Zlatan
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The article hiya; feminine refers to saqar/the fire in wama hiya illa thikra lilbashari / And it is but a reminder for mankind (7431). Saqar in the same way than the fire we trike out (5671-74) is a reminder for us..
nice analysis... we have 3 verses containing to/for mankind
lawahatun lil bashar/mankind 7429
but a reminder for mankind 7431
one of the greatest 7435
admonition to mankind 7436
hell promised to the rejecters is main focus and message of the passage
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Peace Nadia, all
Peace Marie,
What you mean by the acceptance of the code 19?
What does it prove for you?
Meaning an acceptance of a sign as present, thats all.
I don't know what it proves for me, or what benefit it has for me in particular as i'm still studying both sides...I asked this question on the basis that there are many people who believe in some kind of pattern in the reading, of a number, that does not appear to be random and for them it increases their faith...these particular people do not disbelieve in any part of the reading, but their faith increases all the same...for them it's just another one of God's signs like the sun rising.
I would like to know what your interpretation says on the behalf of people like them who do not reject any part of the reading...where do they stand in this trial?
By the way, not everyone will be satisfied with anothers explanation of what it proves for them...as we are all different and see things differently, as long as they increase in faith and don't reject the message, i don't see what the issue would be...Would like your observations please )
Nadia
To think of the code 19 dangers as of merely the two verses out issue is to greatly trivialise the matter and undrestimate detrimental effects which the code causes in those who accepts it......the rejection of 9128-9 is only the top of the iceberg...
Under the water there are following of conjectures, relying on man made sources besides The God
s guidance, placing our words into The Almightys, speaking of The God what is not true, misunderstanding and misinterpreting Him, sectarianism( and all that it carries!), and a lot of distrust to the God`s ayats/messages/sayings, that is, not really believing in what is said in the great reading, but merely paying the lip service to it.....The rejection of 9128-9 is a kind of physical or theoretical rejection of the God
s sayings...it is what is most obvious and can be noted by anybody and/or at the first sight...BUT under the water is what matters the most...that is, accepting of the code requires the practical or actual neglect or rejection of a lot of The Gods messages, precepts, morals and sayings...it is to reject The God`s teaching in general....Many people ask, "but what if I really see those patterns and they only convince me and increse my faith in Quran?"
Let me try to illustrate this fallacy with the following example...
?And we are sending down from this reading that that is a remedy and mercy to the believers/faithful, while it increases the wrongdoers nothing but loss/degradation....?1782
Now, we have some people who, having neurotic symptoms or serious problems or some worries in their life, BASED ON THIS VERSE take pages of the great reading, sink it the down in the water or recite it over the water, then they drink it believing they will get better due to the remedy they have applied...or they hang the pages of the great reading around they neck or put it under the pillow...and guess what, they sometimes indeed do get better...And it even increases their faith...
Let us reflect on this ....is the faith really incresed or they have decieved themselves....true, a certain faith has been increased, but allow me to ask, which faith?
The faith in THE READING OF THE ULAMA, mulahs, and priests who interpret the verses the way these people have applied it....surely not in the reading of The God...
best wishes, Zlatan
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Peace brother Zlatan, sister Marie, all,
I think that we need to ask ourselves, what is a practical example of a "fitna(t)".
For example, we are told that our money and children are "fitna(t)". This is an example that all of us can relate to.
People get obsessed with growing and counting money and it becomes like an addiction. Similarly, people get obsessed with their children and spoil them, etc.
Thus, as far as worldly matters, I see fitna(t) as something people get obsessed with.
This is a completely different view from the 'fleeing' that you advocated before regarding 'fitnah'. You were saying that one needs to flee a fitnah when it was pointed out that 292-3 state that everyone will be put to "fitnah" to test their faith.
This reference to
6415 Your money and children are a test, and GOD possesses a great recompense.
is a good one. It shows that these are 'fitnah' and obviously one cannot flee these or abandon them.
One needs to give them their due consideration and position. That's all that I've been saying all along wheras the the team with Marie, Zlatan, and yourself are advocating the abandoning of this.
Here's another verse that places this meaning into context
639 O you who believe, do not be distracted by your money and your children from remembering GOD. Those who do this are the losers.
So the objects of the test can indeed become a distraction to remembering God; but it is not a reason to deny that the count of 19 is a sign.
The fitna of counting 19 is emperically verifiable as we see those afflicted by it obsessed with counting 19 everywhere.
3ida(t) occurs in
946, 936, 937, 3349, 2184-185, 1822, 651, 654, 74313349 makes it clear that the meaning of "3D(t)" is clearly not "number"
since the women that we divorce do not owe us a "number" but they owe usa "count". They have to count three menstrual cycles. This doesn't mean that women only have three menstrual cycles or that they only get three in a year. What this means is that out of the number/3DD/ of
menstrual cycles from the time of divorce, they only owe us the
count/3D(t)/ of three.651 talks about being accurate with the count/3D(t)/ . There is
nothing accurate or inaccurate about any number. Accuracy becomes an
issue only when there is measurement (i.e. counting). So once again, we
see that 3D(t)/ is what we measure/count out of a larger
population (see 936-37, 651-4) or estimate from possible alternatives
(see 1822).Notice the same word used in 946 to indicate what we count in
preparation for battle. For example, we prepare by counting supplies
based on the military objective. We don't just get any absolute number
of supplies.Notice that the same word is used in 7431 to indicate that the
"fitna(t)"/trial is in counting 19 and not in the number 19 itself.
There is no trial inherent in any abstract number but there is trial in
our actions.It is obvious that the sign of 19 has to do with counts; no one denies that. But just like in the verses it is the completed count which is the issue.
It is the completed count of THREE periods, not the counting itself that is an issue.
Moreover I think that this in fact strengthens the case that whatever it is with 19/nineteen - it involves a count - and that is what is important. So yes it is not some mystical faith in a number 19 that 'counts' (pardon the pun), but the count of it (in the Koran) which is the sign.
Regards.
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Peace Zaltan & All,
To think of the code 19 dangers as of merely the two verses out issue is to greatly trivialise the matter and undrestimate detrimental effects which the code causes in those who accepts it......the rejection of 9128-9 is only the top of the iceberg...
Why the insistence to link the rejection of 9128-129 with 19?
I have found this to be a common theme in this thread when it is totally biased and based on the 'human' research of Rashad.
19 does not reject 9128-129, but Rashad's research did (please note the difference between the two).
Secondly, your example of the people who believe in mumbo jumbo by placing the text in water or around their neck is also unrelated to 19.
Finally, I want your answer on the following question
- Reviewing the Hafs & Warsh, we find that the Basmalla in Chapter 1 is treated differently than the other chapters...Which version (if any) is 'more correct'? Or do you believe that they are both inspired by God?
My view is that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth by refusing to acknowledge that there are other factors at work beyond what we may have learned or studied...
Do any of us claim to have attained full knowledge?
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Peace Layth all
Peace Zaltan & All,
To think of the code 19 dangers as of merely the two verses out issue is to greatly trivialise the matter and undrestimate detrimental effects which the code causes in those who accepts it......the rejection of 9128-9 is only the top of the iceberg...
Why the insistence to link the rejection of 9128-129 with 19?
I am not insisting to link it, on contrary, i would actually like that people analyse it as separate issues....the rejection of 9128-129 was implied in the question of Nadia...that s why i have mentioned it....she has been asking/inquiring about such people like you, who believe in the code, but not in the rejection of 9128-9....then i have tried to explain that rejection of 9128-9 is quite irrelevent and a minor issue comparing to rejection of other ayats/messages if one is to accept the code 19.... with or without this feather code 19 is the devils invention....
this was my stance several years now...
see for example the thread that i have initiated on this topic named
Deletion of 9/128,129 is only a drop in the dark code ocean
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2006
I have found this to be a common theme in this thread when it is totally biased and based on the 'human' research of Rashad.
19 does not reject 9128-129, but Rashad's research did (please note the difference between the two).
ok, i can differentiate between the two...but tell me how do you know what the 19 rejects and what accept? Is the 19 somehow speaking to you?
Secondly, your example of the people who believe in mumbo jumbo by placing the text in water or around their neck is also unrelated to 19.
On contrary the example perfectly fits... They have misunderstood what is meant by healing/remedy in 1782 in the same way that you have misunderstood what is meant by "iddata/uhum" and by increasing in 7431....and what you call mumbo-jumbo is a remedy(!) to many people ...just like your modern numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo is increasings your faith....both phenomenons are mumbo-jumbo..... its just that you are modernistically inclined and thus numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo doesnt looks like mumbo-jumbo to you...but both are highly subjective and based on misundrestanding and misinterpreting what is stated in the great reading... both are result of man-made interpretation of the book of The God thus injuring The God`s exclusive right to interpret and explain His sayings....
Instead of explaining the sayings of the book, ones with the help of the others, and what is indecisive and ambiguous with what is precise and decisive, both groups have studied the messages of the book in isolation and then have attached the man-made subjective interpretations to the ambiguous and indecisive elements in it...
Finally, I want your answer on the following question
- Reviewing the Hafs & Warsh, we find that the Basmalla in Chapter 1 is treated differently than the other chapters...Which version (if any) is 'more correct'? Or do you believe that they are both inspired by God?
Man-made enumerations( invented for the sake of conveniece and making easy refferences to particular pasages in the text) that are being differently inserted in the two scripts has no any relevance to the text being revealed ...they are not divine and I see no point in discussing it...dont you think so?
My view is that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth by refusing to acknowledge that there are other factors at work beyond what we may have learned or studied...
Can you be more specific?
From all the knowledge i have attained so far from the great reading, the horse that we are given is but a TROIAN HORSE!
Do any of us claim to have attained full knowledge?
Can you be more specific, i am not sure what you are trying to say here...are you claiming there are proofs of the code being inserted that are not discovered yet, but are only propheciesed in 7430-35?
best wishes,
Zlatan
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Peace Truth,
This is a completely different view from the 'fleeing' that you advocated before regarding 'fitnah'. You were saying that one needs to flee a fitnah when it was pointed out that 292-3 state that everyone will be put to "fitnah" to test their faith.
This reference to
6415 Your money and children are a test, and GOD possesses a great recompense.
is a good one. It shows that these are 'fitnah' and obviously one cannot flee these or abandon them.
You are right, no one should flee them, but one should not get obsessed with them or his money.
One needs to give them their due consideration and position. That's all that I've been saying all along wheras the the team with Marie, Zlatan, and yourself are advocating the abandoning of this.
The consideration and position of counting 19 is that it is a "fitna" NOT a "ayat/sign" as you advocate.
Here's another verse that places this meaning into context
639 O you who believe, do not be distracted by your money and your children from remembering GOD. Those who do this are the losers.
So the objects of the test can indeed become a distraction to remembering God; but it is not a reason to deny that the count of 19 is a sign.
The only reason to deny it as a sign is that it is NEVER described as a sign/"ayat" in the great reading.
Moreover I think that this in fact strengthens the case that whatever it is with 19/nineteen - it involves a count - and that is what is important. So yes it is not some mystical faith in a number 19 that 'counts' (pardon the pun), but the count of it (in the Koran) which is the sign.
The underlined is mystical faith because it is not based on the reality in the great reading. Where is the count of 19 described as a "sign/ayat" in the great reading? NOWHERE.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace Zaltan,
then i have tried to explain that rejection of 9128-9 is quite irrelevent and a minor issue comparing to rejection of other ayats/messages if one is to accept the code 19
Please give examples...I accept from my research that there is a 19 related design in the Scripture...I have not however ever heard that this design causes the rejection of 'other ayats/messages' as you have stated.
with or without this feather code 19 is the devils invention.
Iron was sent down as a mercy from God to help mankind (5725)...Yet man abused this most precious of substances to create weapons of destruction and mayhem...It is not 'Iron' that is evil or from the devil, but what man has made of it is.
this was my stance several years now...
Our stances should be made based on 'truth'...Not simply because we have believed or accepted such a way for years or even decades.
ok, i can differentiate between the two...but tell me how do you know what the 19 rejects and what accept? Is the 19 somehow speaking to you?
LOL...I would be very worried if 19 or any other number were 'speaking to me'
The tool of '19' is extremely effective in identifying where potential issues of human error/manipulation in the text/design of the Scripture may be found...We have seen the example of 'BaSta' but also the examples of 'Sinwan' and a few other words that were misspelled in later editions of the text.
On contrary the example perfectly fits... They have misunderstood what is meant by healing/remedy in 1782 in the same way that you have misunderstood what is meant by "iddata/uhum" and by increasing in 7431....and what you call mumbo-jumbo is a remedy(!) to many people ...just like your modern numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo is increasings your faith
Finding spelling errors in the text is not 'mumbo jumbo' but is a fact based on observation and evidence...
Finding miscounts of the verses is not 'mumbo jumbo' but is a fact based on observation and evidence...
You may 'chose' to ignore that these things have ever happened and believe that are comming from the realm of the 'mumbo jumbo' while in-fact the evidence is there for any who wish to see.
....both phenomenons are mumbo-jumbo..... its just that you are modernistically inclined and thus numerico-mathematical mumbo-jumbo doesnt looks like mumbo-jumbo to you...but both are highly subjective and based on misundrestanding and misinterpreting what is stated in the great reading.
Did I imagine Hafs & Warsh variation?
I wish I did and this was all a bad dream...But the reality is that the issue is there and it is bigger than being waved away into obsecurity.
Instead of explaining the sayings of the book, ones with the help of the others, and what is indecisive and ambiguous with what is precise and decisive, both groups have studied the messages of the book in isolation and then have attached the man-made subjective interpretations to the ambiguous and indecisive elements in it...
Is the Muhkam and the Mutashabih not both from God?
We are clearly permitted to study both, however the interpretation of one is more complex/deeper than the interpretation of the other (hence more mistakes may occur in the reading/tauweel).
Man-made enumerations( invented for the sake of conveniece and making easy refferences to particular pasages in the text) that are being differently inserted in the two scripts has no any relevance to the text being revealed ...they are not divine and I see no point in discussing it...dont you think so?
See my post to Ayman on the subject of the 'verse stops'. The issue is not 'man-made' but is most relevant since the Scripture was revealed in verse format and then collected in its current format...
You are saying that we do not need to kown how the original structure looked like...I am of the opinoin that we do.
You are saying we do not need to worry about the meaning changes (like 51 in Hafs & Warsh)... I am of the opinoin that we do.
You are saying we do not need to worry about the word changes or spelling changes...I am of the opinoin that we do.
My view is that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth by refusing to acknowledge that there are other factors at work beyond what we may have learned or studied...
Can you be more specific?
We have now the knowledge of the changes and the tool to measure these changes...To ignore such a blessing is to ignore the gift we are given.
To have come so far and then turn back is the worse thing we can do.
From all the knowledge i have attained so far from the great reading, the horse that we are given is but a TROIAN HORSE!
Recall my example of the 'Iron'...It is only a Trojan horse if you want it to be.
Do any of us claim to have attained full knowledge?
Can you be more specific, i am not sure what you are trying to say here...are you claiming there are proofs of the code being inserted that are not discovered yet, but are only propheciesed in 7430-35?
I am saying that we will never have full knwoledge as that feature rests with God and God only...
We can only strive to learn and not be decieved into thinking that this is the end to it all or that this is the limit of the knowledge...
The scripture may be finite in its words, but it is infinate in its content.
