So-called Hijri Calendar was not in use in (most of) 7th CE

noshirk

A consequence of that study, if confirmed, is about month of Ramadan.

If my study based on papyri and inscriptions above is correct, then it means that in 7th CE, month of Ramadan felt around August / September.

It didn't fall around summer solstice as explained by brother Ayman here https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0

Which means that Leilat al-Qadr was surely the automn equinox, possibly the same day as Yom Kippur.

Salaam
of course, laylatou el qadr is equinox and there is two equinoxes per year. Ramadan correspond to jewish haj succot pilgrimage

it is interesting to note that in these old papers , the expression after hegire don't appears.
these old papers seems to confirm that there is an "arabic calendar" who began in 622 and that is not a late forgery as sira and other hadiths.

as perhaps you already noticed, for some "extremists" like me, Quran have been revealed the 20 September 617 except probably for sourate 9 who seems to have come later.
it seems then quite clear that something very important happened in year 622 in wich began "the arabic calendar" who became later the "hegire calandar".

accord to this theory, since the hijra is mentioned in quran revealed in 617, hijra happened then before 617. So the event carved in stone for arabic calendar is not hijra from meccaland to medinaland.
This leads to the great question what it is then the great event of 622 ?

The best hypothesis is that it is the year of death of prophet. it is funny to remark that the tale about the "calendar" creation https//personalgrowth.blog/2018/03/23/khalifa-umar-bin-al-khattab-the-hijri-calendar/ mentioned this hypothesis as natural hypothesis (it is a tale because it is not like this that we create calendars).

it is important to note that the term hegire is confusing and can point to three differents things
-1-there is the hijra (the travel of the prophet)
-2-hajir (hagar) the supposed servant of Abraham and supposed mother of Ismael.
-3- hijr the old and legendary capital of old bahrein (arabic side of persian golf). Hijr is not far from "persian makka" https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maka_(satrapy). it seems that it has been destroyed by quarmatians in the begiining of 10th century. So many lies surrounds quamatians.

"arabs" where called hagareans in ealier non Islamic documents. This fit better with third option.
Then, we can consider that there is a great suspicion that Muslims capital in that era was hijr mainly because if we see from where muslim began their conquest and attacked the the two great empires of the moment (byzantine and persian) in the years 634, we deduce that their rear base (base arri?re) was in that region and cannot be elsewhere.

Attacking the two greats empire only two years after the death of the prophet and after the alleged "ridda" war seems too earlier.
if we suppose that prophet died in 622, just after finishing his mission, that is delivering Quran, the 12 years let the time for a the succession to took place and let the successors organizing the beginning of Islamic expansion.

Peace

Noon_waalqalami

Ok, but you didn't explain them.
...
Now back to my reasoning error.
Actually PERF558 says only Jumada al-'Ula year 22, not the 1st Jumada al-'Ula. Therefore, 29th or 30th Jumada al-'Ula as in hijri calendar could actually work.
Therefore papyrus PERF558 alone does not contradict hijri calendar.

peace, roll forward from Perf 558 matches today's ...

643 new moon Apr 24
643 crescent Apr 25/26 Jumada al-thani 1
643 new moon May 23
643 crescent May 24/25 Rajab 1
643 new moon Jun 21
643 crescent Jun 22/23 Sha?bn 1
643 new moon Jul 21
643 crescent Jul 22/23 Raman 1
...
2018 new moon May 15
2018 crescent May 16/17 Ramadan 1, 1439 AH

Likewise roll back matches battle of Badr March 13, 624 CE/Ramadan 17, 2 AH

624 new moon Feb 24
624 crescent Feb 25/26 Raman 1
624 Badr battle March 13 Ramadan 17, 2 AH

Noon_waalqalami

peace -- to further clarify make calculations easy...

If rolling back from Perf558
https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=02&d1=25&y1=624&m2=7&d2=23&y2=643&ti=on

From and including Saturday, Feb 25, 624 Raman 1, 2 AH
{The Battle of Badr March 13, 624 Ramadan 17, 2 AH}
To and including Wednesday, July 23, 643 Raman 1, 22 AH

Result 7,089 days
((7,089 days) - ((22 - 2) x 12 x (29.53059 days))) / lunar month = 0

Likewise if rolling forward from Perf558
https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=4&d1=25&y1=643&m2=5&d2=15&y2=2018&ti=on

From and including Friday, April 25, 643 Jumd? al-l? 30, 22 AH Perf 558
To and including Tuesday, May 15, 2018 Ramadan 1, 1439 AH

Result 502,227 days
((502,227 days) - ((1439 - 22) x 12 x (29.53059 days))) / lunar month = 3 (i.e. three months to Ramadan)

OR

https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=7&d1=23&y1=643&m2=5&d2=15&y2=2018&ti=on

From and including Wednesday, July 23, 643 Raman 1, 22 AH
To and including Tuesday, May 15, 2018 Ramadan 1, 1439 AH

Result 502,138 days
((502,138 days - ((1439 - 22) x 12 x 29.53059 days))) / lunar month = 0

noshirk

peace -- to further clarify make calculations easy...

If rolling back from Perf558
https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=02&d1=25&y1=624&m2=7&d2=23&y2=643&ti=on

From and including Saturday, Feb 25, 624 Raman 1, 2 AH
{The Battle of Badr March 13, 624 Ramadan 17, 2 AH}
To and including Wednesday, July 23, 643 Raman 1, 22 AH

Result 7,089 days
((7,089 days) - ((22 - 2) x 12 x (29.53059 days))) / lunar month = 0

Likewise if rolling forward from Perf558
https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=4&d1=25&y1=643&m2=5&d2=15&y2=2018&ti=on

From and including Friday, April 25, 643 Jumd? al-l? 30, 22 AH Perf 558
To and including Tuesday, May 15, 2018 Ramadan 1, 1439 AH

Result 502,227 days
((502,227 days) - ((1439 - 22) x 12 x (29.53059 days))) / lunar month = 3 (i.e. three months to Ramadan)

OR

https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=7&d1=23&y1=643&m2=5&d2=15&y2=2018&ti=on

From and including Wednesday, July 23, 643 Raman 1, 22 AH
To and including Tuesday, May 15, 2018 Ramadan 1, 1439 AH

Result 502,138 days
((502,138 days - ((1439 - 22) x 12 x 29.53059 days))) / lunar month = 0

Salaam Bro
sorry but i don't understand what your calculation is proving.
All backward calculation is assuming that hijri calendar began 16 july 622 and give coherent results under this assumption.

The big problem is however what was the calendar used by the prophet before 638 ?
How the prophet was fixing the "ramadan" before the "hijri calendar" was created? Was he using the pagan calendar ?

it will be funny if the "hadithists" explains us the "methodology" as their "scholars " says that the pre-muslim calendar included something called nassy.
the transition from lunisolar to lunar calendar impose a calibration for the first day of the first year.

Peace

noshirk

Here are the links to these documents

PERF558 https//www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/perf558
Inscription of Hammat Gader https//www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/hammat.html
P. Colt. No. 60 https//www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/jerus

Salaam

Let's take the problem from another side and let forget the "ramadan month".
there is two other months called rabii one and rabii 2 and let assume that before lunar calendar, rabii one and rabii two were in spring as their names seems to indicates.

as i have have shown in my thread about 20 september 617, supposed to be a ramadan day, rabbi was in spring.
but let's forget.

in 638, according to "hijri calendar", rabii was in spring. So no lunar calendar yet.
since lunar calendar introduce the derivation, and that we lose on year every 33 years.
we have 638+33=671 and 638+2*33=704 as candidates for beginnig of derivation of rabii relative to spring.

i will use this link now http//www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/MSDating.html#Indiction

theory year 622=1
doc 1 indiction 1 -->year 643 --> 22 in "arabian calendar' according to the document itself
doc 2 indiction 6-->year 663-->42 ...in "arabian calendar' according to the document itself
doc3 indiction 3-->year 675-->54...in "arabian calendar' according to the document itself

622-1=621
643-22=621
675-54=621

but 675-622=53=33*1.6=more that one year and half as expected derivation.
if "arabian calendar" was lunar since 622, we should have at least year 55 in the thrid document.

however it is clear that something important happened in year 622 to be declared year 1.
For me it is probably the year of the death of prophet.

let's go back to these verses (monotheist traduction and totally wrong)
302 The Romans have won.
303 At the lowest part on the earth. But after their victory, they will be defeated.

in another traduction we have the reverse situation (it is the right way)
30-2 The Romans have been defeated-
303 In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
30-4 Within a few years. With Allah is the Command, in the past and in the Future on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-

they are very important verses since we are sure they have been revealed between 617 and 622 from historical point of view (war between romans and persians).
to 617, Romans were loosing according to history
from 622 , Romans begin to won according to history

of course, since it is a quranic prophety, that means this verses were revealed before 622.

Now let's assume that Muhammad was alive in 623 and that quran was still dowloading from sky.
What is the miracle of a prophecy in a book not yet "finished" and with the ability to be modified ?
if Quran was still revealing after 622, i would have expected at least a verse saying something like "as predicted before, romans have won and the promise of Allah is realized".
What sense give to these verses in this case ?

Peace

noshirk

posted by error and deleted

Noon_waalqalami

sorry but i don't understand what your calculation is proving.
All backward calculation is assuming that hijri calendar began 16 july 622 and give coherent results under this assumption.

Peace, calculations show that current calendar aligns rolling back to Perf558 and Badr battle.

Although it does not mean implementation was correct same as with inheritance verses, etc.

Here's another example if rolling forward from Perf558 to reported date of Ali?s assignation?

https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=4&d1=25&y1=643&m2=01&d2=29&y2=661&ti=on
From and including Friday, April 25, 643 Jumd? al-l? 30, 22 AH Perf 558
To and including Friday, January 29, 661 Ramadan 21, 40 AH Ali assassinated
Result 6,490 days
((6,490 days) - ((40 - 22) x 12 x (29.53059 days))) / lunar month = 3.7 months after Jumd? al-l? 30

OR

https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=7&d1=23&y1=643&m2=01&d2=29&y2=661&ti=on
From and including Wednesday, July 23, 643 Ramadan 1, 22 AH
To and including Friday, January 29, 661 Ramadan 21, 40 AH Ali assassinated
Result 6,401 days
((6,401 days - ((40 - 22) x 12 x 29.53059 days))) / lunar month = 0.758 months after Ramadan 1

Anoushirvan

Salam,

Peace, calculations show that current calendar aligns rolling back to Perf558 and Badr battle.

Please bring proofs that the Battle of Badr really happened. For example, did we find archeological remains of it ?

Here's another example if rolling forward from Perf558 to reported date of Ali?s assignation?

https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=4&d1=25&y1=643&m2=01&d2=29&y2=661&ti=on
From and including Friday, April 25, 643 Jumd? al-l? 30, 22 AH Perf 558
To and including Friday, January 29, 661 Ramadan 21, 40 AH Ali assassinated
Result 6,490 days
((6,490 days) - ((40 - 22) x 12 x (29.53059 days))) / lunar month = 3.7 months after Jumd? al-l? 30

OR

https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=7&d1=23&y1=643&m2=01&d2=29&y2=661&ti=on
From and including Wednesday, July 23, 643 Ramadan 1, 22 AH
To and including Friday, January 29, 661 Ramadan 21, 40 AH Ali assassinated
Result 6,401 days
((6,401 days - ((40 - 22) x 12 x 29.53059 days))) / lunar month = 0.758 months after Ramadan 1

First of all, early testimonies disagree with the year of Ali' slain.
The Maronite Chronicle, http//www.christianorigins.com/islamrefs.html#maronitechronicler, places it in year A.G. 969. A.G. era starts in 312/311 B.C.
So according to this chronicle, Ali was slained in year 657 AD at Hira.

Second, there is a reasoning error here because the equivalence between Ramadan 21, 40 AH and January 29, 661 was set assuming a lunar calendar. Therefore it is putting the conclusion in the assumptions.

ayman

A consequence of that study, if confirmed, is about month of Ramadan.

If my study based on papyri and inscriptions above is correct, then it means that in 7th CE, month of Ramadan felt around August / September.

It didn't fall around summer solstice as explained by brother Ayman here https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0

Which means that Leilat al-Qadr was surely the automn equinox, possibly the same day as Yom Kippur.

Thank you for this interesting analysis. I remember a while ago I checked what 1/1/1 in Hijri on one of the date conversion apps like this one
https//www.islamicity.org/hijri-gregorian-converter/#

1/1/1 Hijri was the first new moon after the summer solstice. I didn't give it much weight as I am not sure what rules the app is using for conversion. For example, what do they assume about intercalation, which even according to Sunni traditions wasn't stopped until the year of death of the prophet.

As far as the equinoxes, it is impossible for the equinoxes to mark a year. Using the method in 1712 you would only get half a year with the equinoxes.

Also, the "nasi'" was an improper intercalation introduced at the end of the year every other year to delay the hunting restriction and violate it. So this means that the restricted full moons must occur at the beginning on the year. We know that one of the meanings of a derivitive of "RMD" ("TaRaMoD&quot means inhumane hunting in the hot time of the year by chasing an animal until its legs burn from the heat and it falls. Hunters can catch animals this way with their hands without using weapons (see 594 reference to catching prey by hands). The hot time of the year is when young animals are newly born and are relying on their mother so killing the mother means sentencing her newborns to death by dehydration and starvation. Notice that out of the punishments listed for violating the hunting restriction in 595 fasting is the only one followed by the reason being so that the hunter "tastes the consequence of his deed". How does the hunter taste the consequence of his deed by fasting? He experiences the thirst and hunger of the wild animal during the hot time of the year when hunting is restricted.

This is why fasting was decreed. It is not to feel the suffering of the poor as people contend. The poor are not given a license not to fast. It is to feel the suffering of the wild life that we as leaders of the earth must take good care of. This is why we fast with the beginning of the hunting restriction.

Peace and best wishes,

Ayman

Anoushirvan

Salam,

I did my calculations again, and unfortunately I discovered mistakes that dismiss what I wrote above, so my apologies for that.
On the other hand, I made substantial progresses I believe, and found something very exciting.

First of all, I must correct the dates I gave for the 3 documents

PERF558 https//www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/perf558
Inscription of Hammat Gader https//www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/hammat.html
P. Colt. No. 60 https//www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/jerus

Document 1 the coptic date 30th Pharmuti indiction 1 corresponds to 25th April 643 and to the last day of Jumada al-Ula, not the first day of Jumada al-Ula

Document 2 the given date corresponds to Monday 5th December 662, not 5th December 663

Document 3 the given year from the Greek part (month of November 3rd indiction) corresponds to year 674, not 675, and to Dhu al-Qa'dah 57.

At this point, these dates are perfectly compatible with a fully lunar calendar.

But, we have a papyrus, P. Louvre Inv. J. David-Weill 20, that doesn't have double-dating but contains a sentence that makes a fully lunar calendar not possible https//www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/plouvre

The sentence in Arabic is
Which means "until refilling the tanks the end of (year) forty-two"
This document has been extensively analyzed here (unfortunately in French) http//www.ifao.egnet.net/anisl/41/10/

The sentence refers to the practice of basin irrigation on the Nile river, see e.g. http//www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/agriculture.htm
Dams are built at right angle to the flow of the Nile, separating the Nile Valley into basins. At the time of the highest flooding (towards the end of September) most of the Nile Valley was covered with water, only villages and cities, built on higher ground and connected by dams, were above water. When the water level reached the mouths of the canals, the dams separating the canals from the river were opened and the basins and canals flooded.

So according to papyrus P. Louvre Inv. J. David-Weill 20, refilling of the tank happens toward the end of year 42 of the Arab era, which has to happen around September.
But in hijri calendar, Dhu al-Qa'dah 42 AH or Dhu al-Hijja 42 AH are not compatible with September 662, they fall in February or March 663.

Therefore, this papyrus clearly dismisses the case of fully lunar calendar in use in the 7th century, and a luni-solar calendar must have been in use instead.

But how could this luni-solar calendar have been built ? Here, the question is fairly complex.

According to Arab traditions, intercalation took place every three years after Dhu al-Hijja, and before Muharram.

I tried all three possible combinations, but I failed to get a calendar that matches all the 4 document dates above and more. Either one or another would fail and be not compatible with the intercalation pattern.

I also tried the suggestion of Noonwaqalami of adjusting month of Ramadan to the first new moon after summer solstice and it also fails on some documents.

If someone is interested I can share a big Libreoffice sheet.

So clearly, what the Islamic tradition tells about intercalation method is either not true, or it wasn't done this way in the 7th CE.

But I finally discovered a way to have working luni-solar calendar, and it is a big surprise it was actually the Jewish calendar with two changes

First year reset to year 620 instead of year -3761 of the normal Jewish calendar, and
More importantly, the Arab new year didn't begin with the month of Muharram but with the month of Dhu al-Qa'da instead !

More accurately, I discovered this matching between Jewish months and Arab months

tishri Dhu al-Qa?da ==> first month of the solar year (please note the Jewish calendar has others "new year&quot.
heshvan Dhu al-Hijja
kislev Muharram
tevet Safar
chevat Rabi al-Awwal
adar Rabi ath-Thani
nissan Jumada al-Ula
iyar Jumada ath-Thani
sivan Rajab
tammuz Sha?aban
av Ramadan
elul Shawwal

With this, all the dates of the above documents, and more now perfectly match.

The Arab era started on 1st Dhu al-Qa'da which felt on 4th September 620, which was 1st tishri 4381. I don't know what this date means but it is compatible with a notice from Jacob of Edessa.
If you want to compute a date in the Arab era of the 7th CE, you can do it with a Jewish-Julian calendar, then subtract 4381, and perform the month equivalence above.

Like the Jewish new year (1st Tishri), the Arab new year started around September. That explains the papyrus above.

When I started this topic I initially thought that this calendar was dropped under calife Abd al-Malik in favor of the fully lunar calendar, but actually a late document like this one dated from 706 https//www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/enlp10.html still uses the Arab-Jewish calendar.
So I don't know when the Hijri calendar that we know today was adopted.

A big consequence is that the Arab kingdom of the 7th CE was actually an Arab-Jewish kingdom !

A last word about Qur'an it is not clear what kind of calendar is advocated in Qur'an although Surah 12 can only make sense with a solar or luni-solar calendar. If it is not the Jewish calendar that Qur'an refers to, then it means that Qur'an was not the reference book of the king / amir al-muminin. Which means that the Arab kingdom was not founded on Qur'an predication. That's also a big consequence.

si_di

A last word about Qur'an it is not clear what kind of calendar is advocated in Qur'an although Surah 12 can only make sense with a solar or luni-solar calendar. If it is not the Jewish calendar that Qur'an refers to, then it means that Qur'an was not the reference book of the king / amir al-muminin. Which means that the Arab kingdom was not founded on Qur'an predication. That's also a big consequence.

It is often talked about preflood and afterflood era in archeological circles if you also believe that it was worldwide catastrophe then we are in the year after 7500(?)

Lost

I simply do not understand why people are using PERF558 or whatever to assume that Ramadhan is the name of a month. I mean seriously, there is no evidence for that or whatsoever. If the Quran is really from God we would expect it to make use of an objective way to count time as opposed to arbitrary man-made calendars. Plus even is we suppose that Ramadhan is really the name of a month, then would the Quran just let us guess which one it is ?!?! I mean c'mon guys ahahah...

Ramadhan cannot be the name of some arbitrary arab month, it has to be a descriptive term.

huruf

I am not very much in this question of calendars, but the idea seems interesting. It might be worthwhile to consider things from that pointo of view.

Salaam

Noon_waalqalami

With this, all the dates of the above documents, and more now perfectly match.

The Arab era started on 1st Dhu al-Qa'da which felt on 4th September 620

peace, there is an error if rolling back from Perf 558 off by three months.

https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=01&d1=12&y1=620&m2=4&d2=26&y2=643

From and including Saturday, January 12, 0620
To, but not including Saturday, April 26, 0643

Result 8505 days
(8505 days) / lunar month = 288

288 / 12 = 24

http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html

year new moon crescent # month
620 Jan 10 12 6 Jumada al-thani 1
620 Feb 9 11 7 Rajab 1
620 Mar 10 12 8 Sha?bn 1
620 Apr 8 10 9 Raman 1
620 May 8 10 10 Shawwl 1
620 Jun 6 8 11 Dh al-Qa?dah 1
620 Jul 5 7 12 Dh al-ijjah 1
620 Aug 3 5 1 Muarram 1
620 Sep 2 4 2 afar 1

643 Apr 24 26 6 Jumada al-thani 1

jumada al-ula 30, 22 AH / April 25, 643 CE / Pharmouthi 30, the 1st indiction (Perf 55

A last word about Qur'an it is not clear what kind of calendar is advocated in Qur'an although Surah 12 can only make sense with a solar or luni-solar calendar.

no "calendar" only solar years solstices used (N. and S. hemispheres) for timings.

peace, slight clarification nuance in translation; usage depends on context if singular, dual, plural, group, etc.

mun/year (solar)
sinina/years (solar)
sanatan/age/year (solar)

Lost

peace, there is an error if rolling back from Perf 558 off by three months.

https//www.timeanddate.com/date/durationresult.html?m1=01&d1=12&y1=620&m2=4&d2=26&y2=643

From and including Saturday, January 12, 0620
To, but not including Saturday, April 26, 0643

Result 8505 days
(8505 days) / lunar month = 288

288 / 12 = 24

http//astropixels.com/ephemeris/phasescat/phases0601.html

year new moon crescent # month
620 Jan 10 12 6 Jumada al-thani 1
620 Feb 9 11 7 Rajab 1
620 Mar 10 12 8 Sha?bn 1
620 Apr 8 10 9 Raman 1
620 May 8 10 10 Shawwl 1
620 Jun 6 8 11 Dh al-Qa?dah 1
620 Jul 5 7 12 Dh al-ijjah 1
620 Aug 3 5 1 Muarram 1
620 Sep 2 4 2 afar 1

643 Apr 24 26 6 Jumada al-thani 1

jumada al-ula 30, 22 AH / April 25, 643 CE / Pharmouthi 30, the 1st indiction (Perf 55

no "calendar" only solar years solstices used (N. and S. hemispheres) for timings.

What would be the point of 3am and sana being the same thing in the Quran, this is linguistic redundancy in its purest form. You saying Nuh really lived 950 years???

Noon_waalqalami

What would be the point of 3am and sana being the same thing in the Quran, this is linguistic redundancy in its purest form. You saying Nuh really lived 950 years???

peace, we know little about the ancients (simply google megaliths around the globe); likewise the human body is built to live forever; auto-correcting code; eyes cells immortal; cells in human body replenish every 7 years; stomach lining cells renew every 4 days, etc.

(3) different words used ...

mun/year (singular 1 or 100)
mayni/year two (dual 2 or 200)
sinina/years (plural 3-9 and 300-900)

explained ...

1247 said thou cultivating saba/seven (7) sinina/years
i.e. cultivating (7) individual years 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
not saba/seven sanatan (i.e. 7-year period)
1249 furthermore approached from after such mun/year (single year)

it's like ...

im'ra-atun/woman (singular)
imra-atayni/two women
nisai/womenfolk (3+ plural)

whereas sanatan is used for time-length.

2537 and folk noah to what deny they of the messengers (i.e. 3+) drowns we them and made we them to the humankind sign ...

2914 and surely sent we of nan ("a noah&quot to folk his so remain among them thousand (1,000) sanatin (millennium time length) except group of fifty man/year of so seizes them the deluge and they were unjustly

noshirk

Salaam All

mea culpa too.

my own calculations shows also that there is a d?rivation between arabic year and solar year

Document 1https//www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/perf558
Document 2 https//www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/papyri/enlp10.html
Document 3 http//www.skypoint.com/members/waltzmn/MSDating.html#Indiction

document 1 states that month 8 (coptic calendar) in ndiction 1 correspond to month 5 in arabic year 22
document 2 states that month 2 in indiction 5 correspond to month 11 in arabic year 87

so in respective calandar names
Jumd I, 22
Dhl-Qadah, 87 AH

and
Pharmouthi (month 8 ) of the 1st indiction
Phaphi ( month 2 ) of the 5 th indiction

document 3 just give to what years corresponds indictions for first eight month1..
document 1 states that indiction 1 is in 643
document 2 states that indiction 5 is in 707.

difference between the two arabic months is 11/87 - 5/22 =87-22+0.5=65.5
difference between the two coptic months 2/707 -8/643 =707-643-0.5=63.5

which is two years difference and that is the normal difference beween lunar and solar calandar in 65 years

so it seems really that arabic calendar was lunar and used at least from 643.
however, it was not used in the life of muhammad. So it has no "islamic" value. It just inform us what people understood in era in wich calendar was put.

this are months in coptic egyptian calendar

Bohairic Sahidic Coptic Arabic
1 Thout Tt August 29 - September 27
2 Paopi Bba September 28 - October 27
3 Hathor Htr October 28 - November 26
4 Koiak Kiyk November 27 - December 26
5 Tobi ba December 27 - January 25
6 Meshir Amshr January 26 - February 24
7 Paremhat Baramht February 25 - March 26
8 Parmouti Baramda March 27 - April 25
9 Pashons Bashans April 26 - May 25
10 Paoni Ba?nah May 26 - June 24
11 Epip Abb June 25 - July 24
12 Mesori Misr? July 25 - August 23
13 Pi Kogi Enavot Nas? August 24 - August 28

interesting to note the 13 th month who "arabs" choose to call nasi.
so we have two dealings with remonder days
Coptic method; keep them in each year
Hebrew method;later them until they can make a complete month and add a complete lunar cycle in an embolismic year.

interesting also to note this
( &#1577

. .

that is without hamza , the meaning is to forget and with hamza the meaning is to later.
So Quran seeams to says Hebrew method is wrong.

the interesting thing also to note is that quran says that people who do nasi'a obtain the right counting some years
Since hijri is the only "full unar calendar" known, a right counting each 33 years seems very few.

I agree with bro ayman method which says to count 12 full lunar cycles and to neglect the 11 residual days in a way like coptic did
in the aim not to loose the seasons, rabii awal is in spring so ramadan is september. And siyam, whatever it is, occurs in a period where length of day is the same around the planet.

hope brother ayman make his mea culpa about the leylatou el qadr= summer solistice.
hope brother lath make his mea culpa about the leylatou el qadr= winter solistice.
i have no doubt that laylatou el qadr is equinox and there is two laylatou el qadr each year
hope also that bro pazuzu make his mea culpa about the flat earth theory and that he come back.
Both brother pazuzu and brother Ayman and brother layth did a great work toward truth.

very interesting also the fact that 1/1/1 falls around summer solistice july 622 wich is a shar haram for me. (on shahr each three months).
i suspect this month to be the month in wich prophet died since i am convinced that hijra occured before 617.and that there was no quran before 617.
and a sch
Muhammad was a great leader and a wise and learned person before receiving quran.

Peace

Abaddon

Peace!

Lunisolar Calendar was in use by the most of the ancients till the church changed it to a pure solar calendar. Also the pure luni calendar is an innovation by the so loved khalif umar

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbzFGEfgP_8

Our ulama justify it with the Qur'ans claim about the arbitrary adjustment of the 13th month, but it is only directed to the responsible for that manipulation during the times of the jahiliyya. The Lunisolar Calendar has a fixed system for the adjustment of the 13th month.

Year begins when the sun enters aries (spring) and ends when it leaves pisces (winter).