Sufiism
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Peace M_Mehdi,
For all those colours to exist there must exist light.
The truth is like the light - where there is light there cannot be darkness, but there can be blackness (areas which the light cannot penetrate or reflect from).
1781 And say "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish."
3449 Say "The Truth has arrived, and Falsehood neither creates anything new, nor restores anything."
There is no in between when it comes to belief. There is the believer in God alone, and there is the rejecter. The in betweens are hypocrites
4143 They waver in between, neither belonging to this group, nor that group. Whomever God sends astray, you will never find a way to guide him.
It's not about colour blindness, it's about the absence of light (truth) altogether in these exclusionist/elitist philosophies upheld by these misguided individuals.
Regards.
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Peace
There's a lot of anti-mysticism here, but I think that the subject of discussion is too vague for anyone to give their judgements, but yes it is true that there are many corrupt groups around the world but they may have left the path that early 'mystics' took (this words meaning is vague too!).
Can anyone here share the main principles of 'mysicism/sufism'? I hope to hear from LoteTree. Isn't the LoteTree a very far away physical and/or spiritual place away from the reality of this world?
I was just listening to a BOB Marley song and he sang
'You see men sailing on their ego trips
Blast off on their space ship
Million miles from reality
No care for you, no care for me'From a very nice song called 'So much trouble in the world' Bob Marley.
I am not trying to offend any mystics or anyone who believes Mohammed was on a horse flying into space by posting Mr Marley's lyric. I just want to hear that mysticism isn't about men sailing on their ego trips and not caring about you or me.
Peace
Nural
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in Islam personal responsibility is key... we have no "groups".. we have no "sects"... there is nothing to go in between... one group or another... for a Muslim... for a Believer... we submit ourselves to God alone..
Peace M_Mehdi,
There are groups in the world and they are described in the reading, but they are not exclusionist groups.
The groups referred to in the reading are 'fluid' groups - that one enters or leaves based on one's belief. The group of acknowledgers of God alone cannot claim that their group is sealed off - anyone who recognises the truth of it may enter it independently. They do not control who enters it or leaves it freely.
The type of group that is abhorrent as far as spirituality goes is the one that believes that someone is excluded from that group or cannot be a part of it for one reason or another. These groups are created for elitist purposes. These are all based on flawed ideas and all sufi orders fall into this flaw.
Can a woman enter one of these orders and swing their head around chanting amongst the men to reach these mystical highs? If no, then there is already a failure at the most fundamental level.
Can one of these individuals in the group have a dissenting view from the leader? No they cannot - their minds are sold out.
Regards.
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Here's one schematic
Sufi Orders Diagram
And here's a list from Wikipedia...
- Zahediyeh Order
- Safaviyeh Order
- Naqshbandi Order
- Mevlevi Order
- Bektashi Order
- Chishti Order
- Halveti Order
- Jerrahi Order
- Nimatollahi order (http//www.nimatullahi.org/index.html)
- Qadiri
- Rufi
- Noori
- Suhrawardiyya
- Shadhili
- Sanusiyya
- Sarwari Qadiri
- Tijani
- Badawiyyah
I don't understand why that's important except to perhaps indicate diversity?
Instead of healthy diversity of expression like you may be implying, it indicates that just like other mad-made divisions in religion that the numerous 'ways' within mysticism is a clear indicator of the nature of these groups and the reasons for their existence - divergent egos.
The egos of men are what explains this 'diversity' of misguidance.
Regards.
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Peace Mehdi,
You read the words, they are applicable to many things not just Babylon. How do you relate the narrations in the Quran and the stories of the prophets to our lives and learn and get wisdom from them? This is in a similar way. I don't limit these words either.
Authors write in metaphors for a very good reason, there is some knowledge and wisdom that trancends the boundaries of set by time and place as well as all the religous and polictical boundaries.
There are many people in the world that believe Mohammed blasted off into space on a flying horse, in this forum their are people that hold these beliefs because there are hadith sections and one of them mite come and divert the topic in discussion. Whether Mohammed did or not go anywhere the point is that he cared for the people, he was a leader amongst men that showed love and mercy not selfishness or greed.
Any leader of a spiritual group should reflect attributes like these, sufi groups treasure Mohammed, he is their 'Universal reason' for the creation of the Universe. But it's ironic that they don't follow these important attributes as a leader.
I think Bob Marley's music is universal and it's spread throughout the world is meaningful, he has a message and it has survived. The words don't have to be restricited to Babylon. When he says men are sailing on their ego-trips, this can be related to the sufis at the top of the corrupt game (not talking about any of the very few good sufis), they are the ones in control of groups or cults, they blast of in their spaceship while chanting and meditating! Then the corrupt ones meditate a million miles from reality because they are corrupt lost cases who do not care for anyone apart from their own selfish gains.
Now I am not talking about all the sufi leaders, there must be a few good and honest ones that live righteously but the majority live the opposite from what I can see at the moment.
When I say principles rather than not answering the Question, why don't you answer and say they are the same as the Islam promoted by this site? That can't be said because as truth says there are major flaws with the majority of the systems they follow.
I would call any sufi my brother in faith as long as the system they followed cared for all and not just the minority, I like the system that treats everyone the same regardless of their differences in skill. The best system cares about what is in the hearts of all men not about the very few who are in control.
Peace
Nural
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Peace be upon you all
M_Mehdi - I fully agree with your point about mysticism being a personal experience. I think that you need to experience it for yourself to really understand what it is all about. It is correct in saying that because we are all attempting to reach out to the Infinite, there are an infinite number of ways of doing it. There is nothing wrong with learning methods of reaching out provided they do not go against the word of Allah. The main differences between the Sufi Orders is the method of dhikr. These can range from dances to 'breath-chanting'. The loud to the quite, the external to the internal. It just shows that there are so many different ways of reaching out, hence the extremes.
The different colours are all encoded into white - they all lead to the same place - providing that they do not leave the siratul-mustaqeem. My shaykh hated the fact that I incorporated different methods of dhikr, using 'non-Naqshabandi' techniques - but it doesnt matter, one method is not necessarily better than another - it depends upon the individual. If it is guidance you seek - you WILL be guided, the greatest Guide of all will show you the way.
And yes you are also correct about getting lost in the hokus-pokus of it all - it is very easily done (see the 'sparks' discussion above) - i've been lost.
I cant explain my understanding of the journey of the prophet (isra and miraj) all I can say is that from my viewpoint - some of the aspects of the journey are not exclusive to the prophet. Meditate on it and attempt to visualise this and I think you will understand. It can be achieved - the journey is purely spiritual in nature. BUT your journey may be different - YOU may see and feel different things, your understanding may improve about different things to mine. The experiences may sound irrational - but why? Understanding our universe as 4 dimensional is limiting the scope of the creation. There are many realities and our importance in our own individual universes do not have to be confined to our five senses. There are internal senses in my opinion linked to visualisation. If the imagination plays a part in this - where does this information come from?I'm rambling again.
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Hello All,
Thank you all for the warm welcome.
- Ash Shurra,
Reason and logic is important in things like science, technology and medicine. Reason is also important in living our daily lives and making decisions in how we live our life. But to encounter the Divine, if that is your aim, then reason alone is not sufficient. The final encounter with the Divine can never be a logical encounter because God is beyond reason. This cannot be demonstrated rationally, and any attempts to do so with words will sound crude, because language is not capable of describing a reality that is beyond the sense perceptions. You have to experience it. But through simple meditation techniques you may be able to glimpse a reality that lies beyond the ordinary thought processes. Reason is never denied in Mysticism but at the final encounter reason is ?transcended?.
Mysticism is a mental discipline like meditation. It takes years of study and reflection to reach highest mystical states. It is always an intuitive and imaginative journey through the layers of our mind to the very core of our soul. That is why the initiates into this discipline require careful guidance because mind is a dangerous territory and we might not like what we find the there.
As for Guidance ? Be a Guide unto yourself. Never rely on any human authority. Never attach your self to any Sect, Creed or Orders. Never approach another human being out of ?Reverence? for their piety and spirituality. But always approach them in a view to understand them because they are as fallible as you are. Learn from them. Read as much you can read and then derive your own understanding and insights. You have already broken out of the grasp of the Mullahs. The first step is already taken. The rest is up to you. God has given you faculty of reason to find the Truth for yourself so make use of it.
- Tay
My condolences to you?
I like your thinking Tay. This inner dialogue is the key to our spiritual awakening and growth. The Divine is not out there in a separate ontological sphere but it is within us all.
- Naxos
As I have said to Ash Shurra ? Be a Guide unto yourself.
- Truth
Mysticism is a mental discipline. Some people are naturally good at it, just like some people are naturally good at maths. I am terrible at maths but I can appreciate the value of mathematics, just as I can appreciate the unifying, intuitive and imaginative God of the Mystics. The approach to this divinity is not out of fear or worship but out of pure love.
And there is no division here. Some people are naturally gifted for this kind of spirituality but vast majority are not. And Satan never played any important part in my life. In fact I never think about Satan. What does that mean? That means I have outgrown Satan. May be perhaps you should to?
Never use Satan to make excuses for our own human fallibility and frailty. Always take charge of your own life. Always take responsibility for your actions. Prophet Muhammad had a mystical encounter with his God. Does that mean he too was influenced by Satan?
- Nural Amin
Main Principle? ? There is no principle but the principle of Love. The approach to this kind of spirituality is not out of Fear or Worship but out of Pure Love. That is the ?essence? of Mystical spirituality. And no, Mystics do not go on an ?Ego? trip. In fact the aim of the mystics is to leave the Ego behind because it is our ego that gets in the way of spiritual enlightenment. You can?t demonstrate this logically. Only through meditation you can glimpse it.
Lote Tree ? a far away place, outside of reality? I don?t know that?s your understanding and this understanding is for yourself only. If you are looking for answers I can help you find your answers. But these answers will be for yourself only and not me. Never rely on what others say. Be a guide unto yourself.
As for Muhammad going on a journey on a celestial horse ? can you now see how daft it sounds whenever someone tries to describe the mystical encounter with the Divine with words? Language is not equipped to describe these kinds of experiences. Only through a personal experience can you verify realities that lie beyond sense perception. But whenever individuals tried to write down their experiences of the divine encounter, it always sounded bizarre and irrational.
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Peace Lotetree,
I like your response brother...Inshallah I will keep an open mind and look forward to your postings here. Satan to me is not a guy in a red suit with a pitching fork. This refers to our rebellious side, and iblees our desperation. These are the motives that we keep a lid on with reason.
Welcome again D
Peace
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Peace Ash and Lote,
Thank you for the sympathies.
Ash stated, in response to Lote
Inshallah I will keep an open mind and look forward to your postings here.
As always, you remain balanced and open, a model for all.
Lote stated
I like your thinking Tay. This inner dialogue is the key to our spiritual awakening and growth. The Divine is not out there in a separate ontological sphere but it is within us all.
Thank you, and I agree. Recently, I've read this concept expressed as the difference between object-referral and self-referral, where object-referral is dependant on exterior acceptance, and self-referral is independant of the exterior. Self-referral's check and balance system is with the universe beyond the material. It refers only to the silent wisdom.
My favorite Sufi quote
"Out beyond right-doing and wrong-doing there is a field. I'll meet you there" -Rumi
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace darcus,
That is the the mysticism that I knew about until I came here where all the flaws have been highlighted.
Peace LoteTree,
Thank you for your understanding, I like your answer, Having to worship God only out of fear doesn't seem right to me for some reason.
I knew that some of the mysticism I have read into, is not about following man, infact this was the understanding that lead me to my understanding that no man can guide only I can will to be guided and let GOD guide me. The MOST HIGH also says in the Quran that we must choose and truly will to be guided before we see the signs and have the mystical or meaningful experiences of witnessing signs. But when I first read the writings of Sufis there were many emphasisng on the masters and leaders, this i disliked but I like and take a similar approach as LOTETREE in guiding and helping ourselves before anything.
Personally I can't give a reason for my accepting and loving GOD, whether out of fear, love or understanding. My personal mind sees GODs messages in many places and I only do the best I can to understand the world and GOD. Like many of you are seeing that these understandings of GOD are unique, mine is very unique and it will be a matter of time until I can even try to share, GW. But I believe that this kind of mysticism where individuals seek GOD, to understand, to feel better etc is a better form of mysticism, once rules, traditions and all the other stuff come into it I stay clear. I also like the way some mystics accept the many ways of reaching GOD, this is excellent and I believe can bring many cultures and people together.
Nural
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Hello All,
Ash, Tay, Naxus, Nural - Thank you for your kind responses. I wish to learn from you all too.
Debate and discussion about God will always be an endless debate because there are infinite number of ways to discuss the infinite God. But each time we debate and discuss God, little more understanding of the divinity enters our heart and soul....