Issue with Salat/ prayer

Sarah

peace,

You have to do what you think is right based on your understanding at the time, whilst continuing to study, and evolve your practice as your knowledge increases etc.

My personal understanding is here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

Note that some make the claim that "salat" is "following closely" ONLY without any regular/timed component but this is patently false as per Quran (e.g. 2238-239, 4101, 4103, 5106, 6210).*

In order to know what to apply/follow one must read/study the guidebook. Quite simply understanding and application go hand in hand. One is related to the other, and that is why (in my opinion) The Quran has taken a simple yet effective approach, see above article.

*Reference
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran_on_salat.htm

Peace, thank you for this Wakas, I've read through but I think I'll read it through again a couple of times to understand your point of view...

Sarah

Peace Good Logic,

I think I understand where you are coming from. We follow the religion of Abraham (since Islam existed even since Abraham was alive and Abraham even named us Muslims)...

However, since the Qur'an is fully detailed in regards to religious obligations (as I understand it), we find religious duties such as ablution, knowing God is one etc. clearly in the Qur'an...so we follow according to the DETAILS (whether they're long paragraphs or just short instructions) for whatever duty it is we have to obey...

Nevertheless, for the prayer and THE PRAYER ALONE, we are just supposed to TRUST what our ANCESTORS are currently practicing and GUESS that that is exactly how Abraham prayed (like the sunnis)??

'God taught these rituals and practices to Abraham and Ismail and they went around teaching the people what they were taught. God chose the right system to pass these rituals to us, pass it on from one generation to the next one.'

Isn't it only a guess that Abraham prayed the way we see sunnis pray (if that is what you mean by ritual prayers) because you did say it got passed down from generation to generation and most Muslism pray 5 daily prayers with certain certain units of prayers, they don't do what some Qur'an only Muslims do i.e. 2-3 prayers a day, less units etc. ...

If I can find the method of doing wudhu etc. why wouldn't I find the right way of performing/ doing salat within the Qur'an? Why would I need to look to past generations for this one religious duty whilst everything else is mentioned in the Qur'an? It wouldn't be fully detailed in regards to religious duties then...

I'm not sure if salat is actually performing the ritual prayers or reciting the Qur'an 2-3 times per day however if I were sure of it being the former, I would only use the verses from the Qur'an (since it is fully detailed about religious practices) to give me a picture of how to pray instead of copying what past generations do in terms of praying...

Coming to your point of no historical evidence that the ritual salat is man-made....I can show you one obvious possibility- it might have been invented by Bukhari himself (at least the 5 daily sunni prayers)...

Sarah

@ Good Logic,

'As we learn from 1664, only the duties that were/are/will be corrupted and disputed, were/are corrected in the Qoran.

We have revealed this scripture to you, to point out for them what they dispute, and to provide guidance and mercy for people who believe.'

'To point out what they dispute' doesn't necessarily mean that God only mentions the duties that were corrupted...that wouldn't make sense because it would mean that we'd have to GUESS which duties were not corrupted. It would be more reasonable for God to just mention all the duties within the Qur'an....and since it is fully detailed, all the duties a believer has to obey are mentioned NOT just the ones that were were/are/will be corrupted and disputed.

jkhan

peace,

Quote from article

Salam
Your assumptions in Salat is minimum of 2x times must be according to Quran and totally researching what is night and Day according to Quran.... But night never starts at sunset and day never starts at sunrise.... That's beyond QURAN.... In my understanding ... Can you prove with Quran what is night and Day in another topic.... Rather than linking you article so people will have more to say.... If nahar and Lail is worked out with Quran and with nature then we can decide how many times the Salat is mentioned in Quran...
Appreciate your approach for more clarity and guidance...

Novice

So you agree now Aquimi Salat is not "follow closely" as I believe you have changed your stance?

Salaam GL

Sorry brother but you assume too much. Where did I change my stance?

God bless you.

Novice

As Abraham raised the foundation of beyt, together with Ismail, they prayed, 'Our Lord, accept this work from us; You are the Hearer, the Omniscient. Our Lord, and make us Muslims to You and from our descendants let there be a nation of Muslims to you; AND TEACH US HOW TO PRACTICE OUR RELIGIOUS DUTIES, and redeem us; You are the Redeemer, the Merciful'

2234

Brother it has been discussed before. You have translated "MIN" to "of" whereas "MIN" means from. How can one raise foundation from a house?

God bless you.

Novice

All rituals of Islam -Salat included- were given to Abraham (not Muhammed). All these rituals are OLDER than the Qoran. Abraham and/or Ismail did not just invent their own version of Aquimi salat, zakat,... as the new Qoran alone brigades are doing .( Follow closely, unity, communion...etc)

They learned their lessons from Adam (237) and thus asked God to teach them the Manasik of Islam to get close to Him. In 2128 we see Abraham and Ismail implore God to teach them "THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OF ISLAM"

Salaam GL

2234

and for every ummat we appointed munasik..........

2267

for every ummat we appointed their munasik

2141

these ummats have passed to them what they earned and to you what you earn and you will not be asked what they used to do.

What do you say brother in the light of above verses?

God bless you.

good_logic

Because Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)

That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.

And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)

We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.

She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.

Let us not be of those who are loosing the "salat"

1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.

good_logic

Because Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)

That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.

And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)

We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.

She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.

Let us not be of those who are loosing the "salat"

1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.

good_logic

Sorry about the double post before. Ignore everyone. Moderators please delete the last two posts some of the post got cut out I will redo here
Peace Sarah.
I will deal with this point of yours first, quote

If I can find the method of doing wudhu etc. why wouldn't I find the right way of performing/ doing salat within the Qur'an? Why would I need to look to past generations for this one religious duty whilst everything else is mentioned in the Qur'an? It wouldn't be fully detailed in regards to religious duties then...

When GOD instructed the prophet to "Aquimi Salat" what did the prophet do? Where are the details of the claimants of different meanings of Aquimi Salat" like for example "reading Qoran two times " or....others?
GOD calls it "the Salat2 not an ambiguous salat. A specific well known something. to all these people here

Because Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)

That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.

And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)

We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.

She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.

Something is referred as "The Salat"
1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.

Let us have the details of this particular Salat-The Salat_ from Qoran.
It cannot be many different interpretation. It is one single well known thing that they all did!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Novice.
When we conversed about Salat you said it was "follow closely" .
However you said in this thread, quote

Thanks wakas

What I understand from above is that salat is not sunni/shia traditional ritual prayer. It is reading/reflecting/oration of Quran at two times of the day.

If this is what you meant in your article then I totally agree with it.

This is what I meant by changing your stance.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Novice.
My understanding of Mansak,Manasik
Just we have some things different in the manasik, it does not mean "The Salat" is not common in some of them.
Actually, Islam to GOD ,is common in all of them even before Abraham.
Since Abraham "The Salat" is also common.

As for they get asked about what they did, it is about accountability. Nothing to do with Salat as a common mansik.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mohammed_

Salaam Sarah,

Here&#039s the reason

If Qur&#039an says Swalat (Prayer) is decreed at appointed times (4103), then a believer can expect the time of each prayer from the Qur&#039an itself. (The Qur&#039an is complete/detailed/have explanation for everything- 1689, 1712, 12111, 111, 6114-115,126 etc.)

There are only two verses in the Qur&#039an which explain the times of ‘Swalat&#039 with the command أَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ (aqimisswalaata) (11114 & 177 and both of them do not mention the time of a midday prayer.

The command to turn face towards Al Masjid Al Haram comes,
-Two times for the believers-2x فَوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ شَطْرَهُfawalloo wujuhakum shatrahu (2144&150)
-Three times for the prophet- 3x فَوَلِّ وَجْهَكَ شَطْرَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِfawalli wajhaka shatraAMAH (2144,149&150) because in addition to the regular prayers, the prophet is commanded with a special prayer from the night (1778-79).
In 2238 since the term حَافِظُوا عَلَى الصَّلَوَاتِ (haafidhoo alasswalawaati) already covers the regular timed prayers; there is no need to mention a prayer separately. So here Swalaatul wusta in my view refers to all Qur&#039anic advices to follow in life/aspects of a believer, other than the timed prayers (i.e. it is a command to keep up life balanced/modest by obeying God&#039s guidance) see other occurrence of the root W-S-T in 2143 - ummatan wasathan (modest community/balanced nation).
The root S-L-W can&#039t mean ‘the regular timed prayer&#039 always (e.g. 3343,56, 9103),
2458 mention only two prayers, no noonday prayer mentioned -while noonday is there.
Examples from former prophet (1911, 341) there too midday is not mentioned.
Yawm-ul-Jumua and the prayer in 629 -

There is no Qur&#039anic evidence for measuring time in terms of a 7day cycle/week system. And there is no any natural phenomenon to mark the start/end of a week. It is just an arbitrary count used by our ancestors to ease time calculation. So using such a system in the name of God without His command will be problematic.

Qur&#039an mentions time /time calculation in terms of,
Day, Year - based on Sun (1712, 1247-49) & Seasons (1062, 1247-49).
Moon/Moon phases -to mark the fixed periods of time e.g. for Hajj, Ramadan etc. (2189)

So Yawm-ul-Jumua refers to the market day on which people gather for selling and buying their products. The literal meaning of Yawm-ul-Jumua is ‘Day of gathering&#039.
And note that the warning in 629 is to the believers! Which may be because, the time of that prayer might be the peak business time, i.e. evening (since people are about to return home).
And thus the prayer in 629 is the regular prayer in the evening twilight i.e. Swalatul ‘Isha

good_logic

Peace Mohammed.
What you say here does not make sense to me. quote

...in addition to the regular prayers, the prophet is commanded with a special prayer from the night (1778-79).

Yet you take 1778 as instruction to yourself. If you do then surely 1779 is a continuation to whoever is applying 1778 as well. i.e it applies to you. Unless you say both 1778 and 1779 apply to the prophet only!

Also when the prophet is addressed alone Qoran uses "Ya Ayuha Al Nabi"...Otherwise we can choose as we please.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mohammed_

Peace good logic,

Please research and analyse,

The term نَافِلَةً لَّكَ
Other occurrences of كَ in various verses

good_logic

Peace Mohammed
You want me to research the answer for my question to you?
Anyway the Arabic is coming as funny codes?
I do not understand what I am supposed to research.

My understanding 1779 is also addressing the individual as well like 1778, Tajahud does not mean Salat . It tends towards Meditation typre of dhikr?
GOD bless you
Peace

Novice

Peace Novice.
When we conversed about Salat you said it was "follow closely" .
However you said in this thread, quote

Thanks wakas

What I understand from above is that salat is not sunni/shia traditional ritual prayer. It is reading/reflecting/oration of Quran at two times of the day.

If this is what you meant in your article then I totally agree with it.

This is what I meant by changing your stance.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Well brother GL my stance is still the same that d lm ww ( &#1608 mans to follow closely. In my reply to brother wakas I agreed with his explanation that salat is not ritual prayer but reading/reflecting on Quran. It will give us the guidance that we are commanded to follow closely.

When I read Quran I try to understand it in Arabic Language which has words derived from root letters and every root has its specific meaning.

God bless you.

Novice

When GOD instructed the prophet to "Aquimi Salat" what did the prophet do? Where are the details of the claimants of different meanings of Aquimi Salat" like for example "reading Qoran two times " or....others?

GOD calls it "the Salat2 not an ambiguous salat. A specific well known something. to all these people here

Because Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)

Brother GL salam

16120-123
(

Surely Ibraheem was an ummat, establishing God's Law truthfully and was not from those who obey other than God.

(

Sharer of God's blessings with others so He chose him and guided him to straight path.

(

and We gave him good in this life and surely he will be among the saliheen in the hereafter.

Then We inspired you that follow "millat Ibraheem" truthfully and he was not from those who attach partners.

So our prophet was commanded to follow the path of Ibraheem because he was not from those who associate partners with God. Sorry brother I do not see any command to follow any rituals here.

That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.

Yes they followed the straight path and did not associate anything with God.

And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)

Salat and zakat have their meaning in the Arabic Language. So was he enjoining his family some rituals which have no connection to the meanings of the terms salat and zakat?

We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.

1087

SO brother GL which word in this verse you have translated as "synagogues"?

She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.

Something is referred as "The Salat"
1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.

In this verse salat is compared with one's desires. So for me as-salat is the guidance of God vs human desires, which is required to be followed closely.

It cannot be many different interpretation. It is one single well known thing that they all did!!!

Yes they all followed God's guidance and did not associate anything with God.

God bless you.

good_logic

Peace Novice.
Guidance is not "The Salat" that Qoran is talking about.
Common brother, you know very well Arabic "AL" is used for a specific noun that gets done. Guidance is something one gets .

And is now Salat= guidance?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mohammed_

Peace good logic,

You want me to research the answer for my question to you?

Yes, of course

1779 speaks about a Swalat in my view. Because the verse starts with وَ (denotes continuation of the previous verse) and 1778 is clearly a Swalat verse.
And after all, the command in 1779 is (additional) for the prophet, so no need to worry about that, while believers can remember/glorify/praise/do swalat whenever they wish.

Update: Post updated with corrections. Responses may refer to the original version.
Original wording (for reference):
'And after all, the command in 1779 is exclusively for the prophet, so no need to worry about that, while believers can remember/glorify/praise God whenever they wish.'