Issue with Salat/ prayer

Novice

All rituals of Islam -Salat included- were given to Abraham (not Muhammed). All these rituals are OLDER than the Qoran. Abraham and/or Ismail did not just invent their own version of Aquimi salat, zakat,... as the new Qoran alone brigades are doing .( Follow closely, unity, communion...etc)

They learned their lessons from Adam (237) and thus asked God to teach them the Manasik of Islam to get close to Him. In 2128 we see Abraham and Ismail implore God to teach them "THE RELIGIOUS PRACTICES OF ISLAM"

Salaam GL

2234

and for every ummat we appointed munasik..........

2267

for every ummat we appointed their munasik

2141

these ummats have passed to them what they earned and to you what you earn and you will not be asked what they used to do.

What do you say brother in the light of above verses?

God bless you.

good_logic

Because Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)

That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.

And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)

We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.

She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.

Let us not be of those who are loosing the "salat"

1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.

good_logic

Because Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)

That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.

And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)

We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.

She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.

Let us not be of those who are loosing the "salat"

1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.

good_logic

Sorry about the double post before. Ignore everyone. Moderators please delete the last two posts some of the post got cut out I will redo here
Peace Sarah.
I will deal with this point of yours first, quote

If I can find the method of doing wudhu etc. why wouldn't I find the right way of performing/ doing salat within the Qur'an? Why would I need to look to past generations for this one religious duty whilst everything else is mentioned in the Qur'an? It wouldn't be fully detailed in regards to religious duties then...

When GOD instructed the prophet to "Aquimi Salat" what did the prophet do? Where are the details of the claimants of different meanings of Aquimi Salat" like for example "reading Qoran two times " or....others?
GOD calls it "the Salat2 not an ambiguous salat. A specific well known something. to all these people here

Because Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)

That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.

And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)

We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.

She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.

Something is referred as "The Salat"
1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.

Let us have the details of this particular Salat-The Salat_ from Qoran.
It cannot be many different interpretation. It is one single well known thing that they all did!!!
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Novice.
When we conversed about Salat you said it was "follow closely" .
However you said in this thread, quote

Thanks wakas

What I understand from above is that salat is not sunni/shia traditional ritual prayer. It is reading/reflecting/oration of Quran at two times of the day.

If this is what you meant in your article then I totally agree with it.

This is what I meant by changing your stance.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Novice.
My understanding of Mansak,Manasik
Just we have some things different in the manasik, it does not mean "The Salat" is not common in some of them.
Actually, Islam to GOD ,is common in all of them even before Abraham.
Since Abraham "The Salat" is also common.

As for they get asked about what they did, it is about accountability. Nothing to do with Salat as a common mansik.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mohammed_

Salaam Sarah,

Here&#039s the reason

If Qur&#039an says Swalat (Prayer) is decreed at appointed times (4103), then a believer can expect the time of each prayer from the Qur&#039an itself. (The Qur&#039an is complete/detailed/have explanation for everything- 1689, 1712, 12111, 111, 6114-115,126 etc.)

There are only two verses in the Qur&#039an which explain the times of ‘Swalat&#039 with the command أَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ (aqimisswalaata) (11114 & 177 and both of them do not mention the time of a midday prayer.

The command to turn face towards Al Masjid Al Haram comes,
-Two times for the believers-2x فَوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ شَطْرَهُfawalloo wujuhakum shatrahu (2144&150)
-Three times for the prophet- 3x فَوَلِّ وَجْهَكَ شَطْرَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِfawalli wajhaka shatraAMAH (2144,149&150) because in addition to the regular prayers, the prophet is commanded with a special prayer from the night (1778-79).
In 2238 since the term حَافِظُوا عَلَى الصَّلَوَاتِ (haafidhoo alasswalawaati) already covers the regular timed prayers; there is no need to mention a prayer separately. So here Swalaatul wusta in my view refers to all Qur&#039anic advices to follow in life/aspects of a believer, other than the timed prayers (i.e. it is a command to keep up life balanced/modest by obeying God&#039s guidance) see other occurrence of the root W-S-T in 2143 - ummatan wasathan (modest community/balanced nation).
The root S-L-W can&#039t mean ‘the regular timed prayer&#039 always (e.g. 3343,56, 9103),
2458 mention only two prayers, no noonday prayer mentioned -while noonday is there.
Examples from former prophet (1911, 341) there too midday is not mentioned.
Yawm-ul-Jumua and the prayer in 629 -

There is no Qur&#039anic evidence for measuring time in terms of a 7day cycle/week system. And there is no any natural phenomenon to mark the start/end of a week. It is just an arbitrary count used by our ancestors to ease time calculation. So using such a system in the name of God without His command will be problematic.

Qur&#039an mentions time /time calculation in terms of,
Day, Year - based on Sun (1712, 1247-49) & Seasons (1062, 1247-49).
Moon/Moon phases -to mark the fixed periods of time e.g. for Hajj, Ramadan etc. (2189)

So Yawm-ul-Jumua refers to the market day on which people gather for selling and buying their products. The literal meaning of Yawm-ul-Jumua is ‘Day of gathering&#039.
And note that the warning in 629 is to the believers! Which may be because, the time of that prayer might be the peak business time, i.e. evening (since people are about to return home).
And thus the prayer in 629 is the regular prayer in the evening twilight i.e. Swalatul ‘Isha

good_logic

Peace Mohammed.
What you say here does not make sense to me. quote

...in addition to the regular prayers, the prophet is commanded with a special prayer from the night (1778-79).

Yet you take 1778 as instruction to yourself. If you do then surely 1779 is a continuation to whoever is applying 1778 as well. i.e it applies to you. Unless you say both 1778 and 1779 apply to the prophet only!

Also when the prophet is addressed alone Qoran uses "Ya Ayuha Al Nabi"...Otherwise we can choose as we please.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mohammed_

Peace good logic,

Please research and analyse,

The term نَافِلَةً لَّكَ
Other occurrences of كَ in various verses

good_logic

Peace Mohammed
You want me to research the answer for my question to you?
Anyway the Arabic is coming as funny codes?
I do not understand what I am supposed to research.

My understanding 1779 is also addressing the individual as well like 1778, Tajahud does not mean Salat . It tends towards Meditation typre of dhikr?
GOD bless you
Peace

Novice

Peace Novice.
When we conversed about Salat you said it was "follow closely" .
However you said in this thread, quote

Thanks wakas

What I understand from above is that salat is not sunni/shia traditional ritual prayer. It is reading/reflecting/oration of Quran at two times of the day.

If this is what you meant in your article then I totally agree with it.

This is what I meant by changing your stance.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Well brother GL my stance is still the same that d lm ww ( &#1608 mans to follow closely. In my reply to brother wakas I agreed with his explanation that salat is not ritual prayer but reading/reflecting on Quran. It will give us the guidance that we are commanded to follow closely.

When I read Quran I try to understand it in Arabic Language which has words derived from root letters and every root has its specific meaning.

God bless you.

Novice

When GOD instructed the prophet to "Aquimi Salat" what did the prophet do? Where are the details of the claimants of different meanings of Aquimi Salat" like for example "reading Qoran two times " or....others?

GOD calls it "the Salat2 not an ambiguous salat. A specific well known something. to all these people here

Because Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)

Brother GL salam

16120-123
(

Surely Ibraheem was an ummat, establishing God's Law truthfully and was not from those who obey other than God.

(

Sharer of God's blessings with others so He chose him and guided him to straight path.

(

and We gave him good in this life and surely he will be among the saliheen in the hereafter.

Then We inspired you that follow "millat Ibraheem" truthfully and he was not from those who attach partners.

So our prophet was commanded to follow the path of Ibraheem because he was not from those who associate partners with God. Sorry brother I do not see any command to follow any rituals here.

That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.

Yes they followed the straight path and did not associate anything with God.

And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)

Salat and zakat have their meaning in the Arabic Language. So was he enjoining his family some rituals which have no connection to the meanings of the terms salat and zakat?

We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.

1087

SO brother GL which word in this verse you have translated as "synagogues"?

She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.

Something is referred as "The Salat"
1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.

In this verse salat is compared with one's desires. So for me as-salat is the guidance of God vs human desires, which is required to be followed closely.

It cannot be many different interpretation. It is one single well known thing that they all did!!!

Yes they all followed God's guidance and did not associate anything with God.

God bless you.

good_logic

Peace Novice.
Guidance is not "The Salat" that Qoran is talking about.
Common brother, you know very well Arabic "AL" is used for a specific noun that gets done. Guidance is something one gets .

And is now Salat= guidance?

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mohammed_

Peace good logic,

You want me to research the answer for my question to you?

Yes, of course

1779 speaks about a Swalat in my view. Because the verse starts with وَ (denotes continuation of the previous verse) and 1778 is clearly a Swalat verse.
And after all, the command in 1779 is (additional) for the prophet, so no need to worry about that, while believers can remember/glorify/praise/do swalat whenever they wish.

Update: Post updated with corrections. Responses may refer to the original version.
Original wording (for reference):
'And after all, the command in 1779 is exclusively for the prophet, so no need to worry about that, while believers can remember/glorify/praise God whenever they wish.'

jkhan

Because Abraham was appreciative of His Lord's blessings, He chose him and guided him in a straight path. We granted him happiness in this life, and in the Hereafter he will be with the righteous. Then we inspired you (Muhammad) to follow the millat/religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper. (16120-123)

That path was followed by the children of Abraham, Moses, Jesus...etc.

And mention in the scripture Ismail. He was truthful when he made a promise, and he was a messenger prophet. He used to enjoin his family to observe the Salat and the Zakat; he was acceptable to his Lord. (1954-55)

We inspired Moses and his brother. "Maintain your homes in Egypt for the time being, turn your homes into synagogues, and maintain the Salat. Give good news to the believers.

She pointed to him. They said, "How can we talk with an infant in the crib?" (The infant spoke and) said, "I am a servant of God. He has given me the scripture, and has appointed me a prophet. He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the Salat and the Zakat for as long as I live.

Let us not be of those who are loosing the "salat"

1959
After them, He substituted generations who lost the Salat, and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.

Dear brother GL
It's not physical Salat which is lost.. But morals... In 1959
If actually physical Salat is lost, then how you claim the salt is preserved and no need of step by step instructions... So the generations have lost Salat is lost.. So, when it reaches to Mohamed then Salat is lost then it is definitely QURANs duty to explain the lost Salat in right way... In fact they lost the morals and pursued their own lust which is evil... When no moral only evil will prevail...

Novice

Guidance is not "The Salat" that Qoran is talking about.
Common brother, you know very well Arabic "AL" is used for a specific noun that gets done. Guidance is something one gets .

So Al-salat means "the guidance" to be followed closely. Human being can get guidance from different sources but "the guidance" is only the one coming from God.

And is now Salat= guidance?

Brother are you serious or just having fun?

Salat means "something to be followed closely" then it is obviously the guidance given in Quran. That is why brother wakas said read/reflect Quran at least two times a day so we keep on reminding ourselves what needs to be followed in our life.

God bless you.

Wakas

peace all,

For those who want an accurate translation of 1778-79, here is my rendition

Quote
Establish the salat at the setting of the sun to the darkness of the night; and the reading (of) dawn; indeed, the reading (of) dawn is witnessed.
And from the night so remain awake with it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord will raise you (to) a status praiseworthy.

The "with it" (Arabic bi hi) refers to a preceding masculine noun, and thus can ONLY refer to "reading" (Arabic quran). Note that "salat" is a feminine noun. Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 7320).

Background
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

It should be obvious that even if one takes 1778-79 being applicable to all, the use of "additionally for yourself, perhaps..." in 1779 clearly suggests this is an extra (to what is the norm/expected/mandated).

good_logic

Peace jkhan.

You say , quote

It's not physical Salat which is lost.. But morals... In 1959
If actually physical Salat is lost, then how you claim the salt is preserved and no need of step by step instructions... So the generations have lost Salat is lost.. So, when it reaches to Mohamed then Salat is lost then it is definitely QURANs duty to explain the lost Salat in right way... In fact they lost the morals and pursued their own lust which is evil... When no moral only evil will prevail...

Brother, you mean "The Salat"= Morals?
Qoran clearly say" Adahu Al Salat" -The Salat a specific thing that you say is morals!!! That is all I need to say in reply.
GOD bless you.
Peace
Peace

good_logic

Peace wakas.
I agree "Tahajud" is not a prayer. But this, quote

The "with it" (Arabic bi hi) refers to a preceding masculine noun, and thus can ONLY refer to "reading" (Arabic quran). Note that "salat" is a feminine noun. Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 7320).

For me "bihi" can mean Qoran.-Study/read /meditate with...Qoran". . not necessarily just read.Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

jkhan

Peace jkhan.

You say , quote

It's not physical Salat which is lost.. But morals... In 1959
If actually physical Salat is lost, then how you claim the salt is preserved and no need of step by step instructions... So the generations have lost Salat is lost.. So, when it reaches to Mohamed then Salat is lost then it is definitely QURANs duty to explain the lost Salat in right way... In fact they lost the morals and pursued their own lust which is evil... When no moral only evil will prevail...

Brother, you mean "The Salat"= Morals?
Qoran clearly say" Adahu Al Salat" -The Salat a specific thing that you say is morals!!! That is all I need to say in reply.
GOD bless you.
Peace
Peace

Dear GL....
You must be knowing if you remember I am not against Salat as physical prayer admiring the Creator as instructed in the Quran as per it's timing...
But claiming every word of salat is prayer then it is meaningless.
1958 -1959 started with Adam and ended in children of Israel and few later then Salat neglected.. And they chose instead of Salat their own lust.... Morals are not own lust ..but morals are law abiding good characters which pleases everyone who likes peace. But they neglected Salat and chose lust which resulted soon in evil...