Issue with Salat/ prayer

Novice

Guidance is not "The Salat" that Qoran is talking about.
Common brother, you know very well Arabic "AL" is used for a specific noun that gets done. Guidance is something one gets .

So Al-salat means "the guidance" to be followed closely. Human being can get guidance from different sources but "the guidance" is only the one coming from God.

And is now Salat= guidance?

Brother are you serious or just having fun?

Salat means "something to be followed closely" then it is obviously the guidance given in Quran. That is why brother wakas said read/reflect Quran at least two times a day so we keep on reminding ourselves what needs to be followed in our life.

God bless you.

Wakas

peace all,

For those who want an accurate translation of 1778-79, here is my rendition

Quote
Establish the salat at the setting of the sun to the darkness of the night; and the reading (of) dawn; indeed, the reading (of) dawn is witnessed.
And from the night so remain awake with it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord will raise you (to) a status praiseworthy.

The "with it" (Arabic bi hi) refers to a preceding masculine noun, and thus can ONLY refer to "reading" (Arabic quran). Note that "salat" is a feminine noun. Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 7320).

Background
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

It should be obvious that even if one takes 1778-79 being applicable to all, the use of "additionally for yourself, perhaps..." in 1779 clearly suggests this is an extra (to what is the norm/expected/mandated).

good_logic

Peace jkhan.

You say , quote

It's not physical Salat which is lost.. But morals... In 1959
If actually physical Salat is lost, then how you claim the salt is preserved and no need of step by step instructions... So the generations have lost Salat is lost.. So, when it reaches to Mohamed then Salat is lost then it is definitely QURANs duty to explain the lost Salat in right way... In fact they lost the morals and pursued their own lust which is evil... When no moral only evil will prevail...

Brother, you mean "The Salat"= Morals?
Qoran clearly say" Adahu Al Salat" -The Salat a specific thing that you say is morals!!! That is all I need to say in reply.
GOD bless you.
Peace
Peace

good_logic

Peace wakas.
I agree "Tahajud" is not a prayer. But this, quote

The "with it" (Arabic bi hi) refers to a preceding masculine noun, and thus can ONLY refer to "reading" (Arabic quran). Note that "salat" is a feminine noun. Thus, the idea of "the tahajjud prayer" is not possible unless one considers it as a reading (also see 7320).

For me "bihi" can mean Qoran.-Study/read /meditate with...Qoran". . not necessarily just read.Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

jkhan

Peace jkhan.

You say , quote

It's not physical Salat which is lost.. But morals... In 1959
If actually physical Salat is lost, then how you claim the salt is preserved and no need of step by step instructions... So the generations have lost Salat is lost.. So, when it reaches to Mohamed then Salat is lost then it is definitely QURANs duty to explain the lost Salat in right way... In fact they lost the morals and pursued their own lust which is evil... When no moral only evil will prevail...

Brother, you mean "The Salat"= Morals?
Qoran clearly say" Adahu Al Salat" -The Salat a specific thing that you say is morals!!! That is all I need to say in reply.
GOD bless you.
Peace
Peace

Dear GL....
You must be knowing if you remember I am not against Salat as physical prayer admiring the Creator as instructed in the Quran as per it's timing...
But claiming every word of salat is prayer then it is meaningless.
1958 -1959 started with Adam and ended in children of Israel and few later then Salat neglected.. And they chose instead of Salat their own lust.... Morals are not own lust ..but morals are law abiding good characters which pleases everyone who likes peace. But they neglected Salat and chose lust which resulted soon in evil...

jkhan

peace all,

For those who want an accurate translation of 1778-79, here is my rendition

Quote
Establish the salat at the setting of the sun to the darkness of the night; and the reading (of) dawn; indeed, the reading (of) dawn is witnessed.
And from the night so remain awake with it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord will raise you (to) a status praiseworthy.

Dear brother waqas...
Is it not weird to take the verse 1778 to befit for Salat Al isha since Salat Al. Isha timing already given in 11114 which are Fajr and isha...
Salat timing are given only in two places... So out if the two again you make 1778 to be isha by saying the setting of the sun.... Is that the word for setting sun in Quran?
Why there is no day time prayer in your understanding.... Didnt you actually not find a day time prayer in Quran.... Or are you busy during day time... How come a knowledgeable person like you missed glaring proofs in Quran for a day time Salat...
God guide us...

good_logic

Brother jkhan.
I am not claiming any salat is a prayer.
I am saying according to my understanding "The salat" in that verse and in a lot of other verses with the Arabic "AL" i.e Al Salat- is a specific and known one thing . -Contact prayer-
.
So "Adahu "The Salat" means a deliberate loss of "The Salat" from the part of some generations that followed Moses/Jesus... .i.e they choose not to do "The Salat". Obviously this leads to a decline in being GOD conscious. As This particular and specific"The Salat" helps the morals also.

So ,brother,it does not say "the Salat" is lost. It says"Adahu" .The generations have lost /stopped...doing it.. Some devout believers always existed that kept it..
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace Mohammed.
So if someone ask us a question from our understanding, we can just say"search for the answer yourself"?
Is this not an easy way out of explaining ourselves?
Just clarifying with you why you do not answer me yourself.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

peace all,

For me "bihi" can mean Qoran.-Study/read /meditate with...Qoran". . not necessarily just read.Qoran.

The word "tahajjad" means "stay awake", and "quran" means "reading/recitation", thus putting it together simply means "stay awake with reading/recitation", and yes that could overlap into study/pondering etc but as you said its not prayer. Using your own reasoning will mean when Quran says "quran al fajr / reading of the dawn" that is also not prayer, so according to you we have to do prayer at fajr and reading at fajr. Of course my view is this problem is a consequence of your salat=prayer view, its not a problem for my view.

jkhan,

Is that the word for setting sun in Quran?

Yes that is one rendition, but also "rubbing/pressing of the sun" (i.e. on the horizon). I discuss it in more detail here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

I didn't find a daytime salat.

jkhan

jkhan,Yes that is one rendition, but also "rubbing/pressing of the sun" (i.e. on the horizon). I discuss it in more detail here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

I didn't find a daytime salat.

Peace...
Let me read the link and come back to you on Sunday in sha Allah... Why you claim "I didn't find day time Salat "
God guide us.... I will come up with some points for and against to your claim....
God Guide us and accept us...

jkhan

Dear brother waqas....
I need a definite clear cut answer from you to my second point before I come to the timing of Salat in Quran... Let's first clear day and night...

3637 "And a sign for them is the night. We remove from it day, so they are in darkness."
Darkness = night(lail)
Light = day(nahar)
Abnormal places excluded in my explanation.. Pls note...

... 2187.. So you should breakfast at sunset... But should stop eating once you see the white thread at Fajr.. Well before sun rise... If the start of fasting is in darkness why not the end? What difference it makes till sunrise if we can eat and drink and then abstain and breakfast at sunset. . It's not matching... God ordered to fast at dawn and break at night... What is night? Sunset.... No way...
i wonder I asked this question this forum... Can't remember.. Still ask... If sunrise to Sun set is day(nahar) then command is to have sexual intercourse at night of fasting... Does that mean, can we have intercourse after Fajr before sunrise (i. e.. Twilight period of dawn) since it falls as per you brother waqas is lail(night)... Having sex while fasting is not permitted... Yes or No? Then why do you decide after clear white thread of dawn, still night..? Respond clearly...
By God's saying itself such as... "On the nights of fasting" it shows the days(nahar) are actually meant for fasting and not night... If in fact time for breakfast is sunset God would have said Guribath shams (Sunset) but God said Lail (night) Guribath shams is already a word in Quran but not used here...
Let me add one more point...
Two ends of the day(nahar) can never be sunset and sunrise... Nahar is day and day is with light... Sunset and sunrise is not by any means two identical things.. Sun rise brings light and radiance.. But sunset diminish light and make it dark.... .. Two ends of the day (nahar) is two twilights period of the day which is after sunset and before sunrise...

Mohammed_

Peace Mohammed.
So if someone ask us a question from our understanding, we can just say"search for the answer yourself"?
Is this not an easy way out of explaining ourselves?
Just clarifying with you why you do not answer me yourself.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

peace good logic,

I am really sorry for that. please forgive.

I felt that, even if I brought to you the answer, you&#039re not going to believe because,
your signature says that you trust in God, still you&#039re following tradition(e.g. Swalat) while God says Qur&#039an has explanation for everything. That is why I told you to do your own research and that was a simple thing especially for you because you are so senior on this forum.

And I didn&#039t like your this question

Anyway the Arabic is coming as funny codes?

And I felt something wrong since you are not showing your gender identity

All these things made me to give that reply that time.

anyway I am sorry for everything.

Mohammed

Mohammed_

peace all,

Today I watched the videos linked in the post and I wish the following corrections to my previous replies (#3#40),

Swalat should be translated as adherence (to God), not prayer

Swalat in 4102, 11114, 1778 & the first SLW in 2238 are about the regular timed adherence (to God).

Wakas

peace jkhan,

My view based on my understanding of Quran is

nahar = anytime any part of the sun is above horizon
layl = anytime whole sun is below horizon, thus twilights are part of layl

2187 is clear you eat/drink until black/white thread of dawn is distinguishable (lets call this start of twilight) then complete the abstinence to the night

Once morning twilight begins you stop eating/drinking, do ablution (if not done already) and undertake salat al fajr (and the period given for this is from morning twilight to the edge of daytime, i.e. part of the sun is above horizen) so no time for sex at twilight. Even if one wanted to argue that there is a discrepancy 2187 is clear (note its use of until, then complete, to).

You end abstinence at layl/night (e.g. evening twilight), albeit it doesn't specify which part of night, so there is some flexibility. You then do ablution (if not done already) and salat al 3sha til darkness of the night.
It will depend somewhat on how you define terms however, e.g. duluk.

good_logic

Thank you Mohammed.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Novice

Establish the salat at the setting of the sun to the darkness of the night; and the reading (of) dawn; indeed, the reading (of) dawn is witnessed.
And from the night so remain awake with it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord will raise you (to) a status praiseworthy.

Brother wakas in your translation "lidulukish shams" is translated as "at the setting of the sun". Does it mean that "li" can mean"at" instead of "for"?

1778

jkhan

peace jkhan,

My view based on my understanding of Quran is

nahar = anytime any part of the sun is above horizon
layl = anytime whole sun is below horizon, thus twilights are part of layl

2187 is clear you eat/drink until black/white thread of dawn is distinguishable (lets call this start of twilight) then complete the abstinence to the night

Once morning twilight begins you stop eating/drinking, do ablution (if not done already) and undertake salat al fajr (and the period given for this is from morning twilight to the edge of daytime, i.e. part of the sun is above horizen) so no time for sex at twilight. Even if one wanted to argue that there is a discrepancy 2187 is clear (note its use of until, then complete, to).

You end abstinence at layl/night (e.g. evening twilight), albeit it doesn't specify which part of night, so there is some flexibility. You then do ablution (if not done already) and salat al 3sha til darkness of the night.
It will depend somewhat on how you define terms however, e.g. duluk.

Peace waqas....
Be more precise in your reply same as most of your beautiful articles...yoir reply here is no where near to your standard... I didn't ask ablution blaa blaa
Whatever...
You said this """ THUS TWILIGHTS ARE PART OF LAYL(NIGHT)
God says to have sex in the night (Lail) of fasting... Not specific which part of night.. Any part of night is night... So, you are telling indirectly having sex in one of the twilights(dawn) is perfectly permitted... How can you deny this when you already said twilights are PART OF LAIL (NIGHT)
i am well aware the word usage of UNTILL and TO...
No discrepancies in Quran... It's the misunderstanding of night and day by people....

jkhan

2871 "Say, "Have you considered if Allah should make for you the night continuous until the Day of Resurrection, what deity other than Allah could bring you light? Then will you not hear?"

Do you people really get what God says about night.....? Just read the verse...
God says if Lail (night) continues till the day of ressurection who can bring what? What dear? Light... Yes light... Opposite of darkness = Light.. Opposite night = Day..
If the two twilight's are night... Then compare this verse... Before sunrise and after sunset is no difference at all... You can see everything what you want.... Now Allah asks... who can bring light....did Allah ask, who can bring sun? . Dudes ...come on.... Light is already there... God doesn't speak lie... God speak truth... Just explore what is night and Day....

Remember..... As we all know... Sun never sets or rise in reality and sun never goes down under horizon or above.. ...but all perceptions.... Sun moves on... When sun moves on the very sun drags it's light with it.... That's why even before the sun appears in our eyes light comes first... Sun is nothing without its light.... Light is the factor... Light is the one it makes things clear... And not Sun (object).. Sun goes beneath horizon won't make light to fade.. If sun stops just below horizon.. You will never see darkness again... And sun again.. In the place you are...
Which one makes sense people.... .

Wakas

peace,

novice, I am aware there is discussion surrounding the use of "li" in this verse but I couldn't see how "for" would change things, hence "at". It's most common meaning is "for" however. It would be interesting if other usage in Quran can be cited, e.g. li+time period (or day etc).

jkhan, I feel my previous reply is clear. Only thing I'd add is 2187 says "permitted for you night(s) (of) the abstinence...".

jkhan

peace everyone..

If that is your understanding then I am not here to insist you... In sha Allah hope you keep researching...

jkhan, I feel my previous reply is clear. Only thing I'd add is 2187 says "permitted for you night(s) (of) the abstinence...".

But I take it as my duty to explain others what I feel what is night and Day....

I will show you a well known chapter to all to expose day and night in the light of Quran though 2871 is more than enough...
Still let me explain the famous chapter which occurs about lailathul kadr...
971 We have sent it down in the night(lail) of Al-Qadr
972 And what will make you know what the night of Al-Qadr is?
973 The night of Al-Qadr is better than thousand full moons
974 Therein descend the angels and the Ruh by Allah's Permission with all command,
975 Peace! until the appearance/rising of dawn(fajr)

The Qadr took place in a night and Qadr was peaceful and lasted till the rising of Fajr(Dawn) ... What is a clear dawn.??.. Dawn is the time where you start to see things slightly away from darkness of the night... When clear dawn is risen or appeared the night is over... From the moment of clear dawn sky will fast keep becoming brighter and brighter... God called it lailathul Qadr and God called it's end at appearance of dawn.... And not the appearance of sun... Night ends at clear dawn... Night starts when brightness of the sky fade off well after sunlight...
For example while Civil twilight is around no one call it is night....
Arabs call the time of sunset as Magrib.. That's undeniable... No Arabs will ever call the time of sunset as Isha... Same the other side.. No Arabs will ever call the time of sunrise as Fajr...
Why I said the above is coz timing for prayer isaha start at the sunset and your prayer for Fajr last till sun rise... These words even not match...