Difference between بسم (Bismi) and باسم (Bi-Ismi)
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Peace TMTT
my knowledge in this topic is very weak...
I said as per my understanding... Why she took only bismillah Rahman Raheem....
Do you say there were prophets who were Arabs? Got to research... But what I understood is only Mohamed based few verses.. But never researched completely....Salam Jkhan!
Simply tell where Ismael A.S who was a Rasool and a Prophet and a son of Ibrahim A.S lived?To your question in red part above
My translation;
She said, ?O chiefs! Indeed a venerable writing is delivered to me. Indeed it is from Suleiman? (Saying) ?And indeed it is pleasure of Allah, the Most-Compassionate, and the Most Merciful that not you wish eminence above Me and come to Me in submission/Muslimeen?.Peace!
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@TMTT
Bit opposite view to what you said... " Whole quran is word of God""
But I prefer to say whole Quran is from God and not all words of Quran are God's ....
No need need to dig this topic... Coz it will go off topic... Wince I see verses like God is poor we are rich.... That's not words of God... Words of people quoted by author in the Quran... GOD didn't say it people said...
Sane like a news paper.... You see lots of quotes... But it is not the word of author...
Let's keep it with topic bismillahSalam Jkhan!
I think here you are contradicting your own previous statement
As per my understanding of Quran Mohamed was the only prophet for Arabs...
So bismillah Rahman Raheem is not one of the typical. Same verse in the book of prophet Sulaiman.... He wouldn't have said the same but perhaps in his own language.. Coz God reveals in language of the prophets and their people...
What could that be that he wrote to Sheba saying equivalent to bismillah Rahman Raheem....
It seems like it was the beginning of his letter while sheba read it... It could be in the OR with the name of...... ....... ...... But not Arabic version...
Or was it in Sheba's languagePeace!
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Salam Jkhan!
Simply tell where Ismael A.S who was a Rasool and a Prophet and a son of Ibrahim A.S lived?To your question in red part above
My translation;
She said, ?O chiefs! Indeed a venerable writing is delivered to me. Indeed it is from Suleiman? (Saying) ?And indeed it is pleasure of Allah, the Most-Compassionate, and the Most Merciful that not you wish eminence above Me and come to Me in submission/Muslimeen?.Peace!
Peace TMTT
I am afraid to state what's have no knowledge... In fact I have to study and research about Mohamed is the only prophet in Arabic language or for Arabs or there were prophets... But my very light memories say that could be right... But I will in sha Allah come back to you TMTT... but you have brought a very good topic which made me to ponder and research on a matter which I have not touched yet...BTW.. I don't think there is any proof that Ismail was an Arab or lived in Macca or the sent to a community where Arabs lived... I wonder even Arabs are that old community.... Date back to Ibrahim.... Is Arabic the root of languages at middle east or others... That will solve.. Anyhow let me research...
God guide you brother... -
TMTT
I doubled checked.. I still feel when I read Arabic and translation and my own understanding.... Letter from Suleiman starts Bismillah Rahman Raheem.... I don't see any other option...
Do you say letter start with something else... If so let me know what is it? -
Dear Jkhan!
Can you see that there is used twice in 2729? Isn't it the start of two (02) statements?
There are 19 Ayats, which start with this word e.g., 1699, 2072, 21110, 23109, 26220, 2730, 3781, 37111, 37132, 5677, 33175, and more.Peace!
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Dear Jkhan!
Can you see that there is used twice in 2729? Isn't it the start of two (02) statements?
There are 19 Ayats, which start with this word e.g., 1699, 2072, 21110, 23109, 26220, 2730, 3781, 37111, 37132, 5677, 33175, and more.Peace!
I will check the verses references you furnished....
But only with the particular verse... It seems She says Sulaiman letter starts bismillah... Let's see... -
Dear brother TMTT and everyone Peace...
What do you get by below verses... Does it say Arabs were given scriptures before... These verses addressing to the people of Mohamed incontrovertibly... Two groups here are Jews and Christian to whome God revealed Books in their own languages... But for Arabs it seems not till it was revealed to Mohamed who lived not far from these two groups (for me Mohamed was a Nabatean Arab after migration and before also not far)... Here God refers two groups starting from musa till Isa... But classification of jews and Christian is people choice during that period.
But Ibrahim lived well before musa... If any of the evidence left to call Ibrahim and Ismail were prophets for Arabs then then the classic evidence could be remnant of Ibrahim's book with the people of Arab in their language .. Specially the ancient Arab Nabatean.. But no such Archealogical remnant left to support... What language Ibrahim Ismail Lot or ishhaq or yakub or even Yousuf spoke is mystery... But clearly they were not Jews or Christians but it doesn't mean they didn't speak Aramaic or Hebrew any such old languages . They would have or may not. But we don't find any other older language to Hebrew /Aramaic / Akkadian in that Area amongst Semitic languages.. Arabic is most widely spoken language in that area since many centuries to now.. It shows that Arabic is a very latest language.. Coz what is most spreading is only the latest version and not the oldest version..thats the pattern of the world. But history shows Akkadian is the oldest of the languages of this area though root for all Semitic languages is probably Aramaic/hebrew... Those who are well versed in such will know from where all started... But, definitely not Arabic... Arabic seems very latest language on the region deriving all dialects from Hebrew and Aramaic... God knows best...6155 "And this is a blessed Scripture which We have revealed. So follow it and ward off (evil), that ye may find mercy"
6156 " lest you should say, 'The Book was sent down only upon two parties before us, and we have indeed been heedless of their study'"
6157 " Or lest ye should say If the Scripture had been revealed unto us, we surely had been better guided than are they. Now hath there come unto you a clear proof from your Lord, a guidance and mercy; and who doeth greater wrong than he who denieth the revelations of Allah, and turneth away from them? We award unto those who turn away from Our revelations an evil doom because of their aversion."
We can't say that scriptures actually sent to the communities of Jews and Christians of Mohamed time.. Of course not but it was sent many 100s of years back... But still called scriptures sent to two groups among them...coz they are the followers of them.. So it shows Arabs were not sent any such scriptures till Mohamed.. Taking Ibrahim or Ismail as Arab is far from reality... I don't think there were Arabs/arabic language in the time of Ibrahim...
Take look at the below verse.. 2948
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Neither did you (O Muhammad SAW) read any book before it (this Quran), nor did you write any book (whatsoever) with your right hand. In that case, indeed, the followers of falsehood might have doubted."It doesn't say Mohamed is illiterate but it says He has no such exposure to scriptures... Neither the scriptures of two groups or of his own ancestors... Nothing in Arabic... This seems the beginning... It was mercy for Arabs and to the world...
God guide us...This is my understanding to date dear TMTT... Lot to research though...any flaws pls point out....
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Dear Jkhan!
Can you see that there is used twice in 2729? Isn't it the start of two (02) statements?
There are 19 Ayats, which start with this word e.g., 1699, 2072, 21110, 23109, 26220, 2730, 3781, 37111, 37132, 5677, 33175, and more.Peace!
Yes dear... Inna'hu used twice.... But other one is Wa'inna'hu.....
Difference is she didn't use a word like IT READS.. but she said " And Verily it.. And then the letter..
The initial innahu is just verily It / Lo! It from Suleiman.
So if we think in a real scenario.. We can imagine the structure of the verse that letter starts with bismillah... Just saying verily it is from Suleiman and cannot read out.. Normal way is to say.. It reads.. It says.. Or like the Quran says.. "And it is" then the original letter.. In my understanding.. Hope u have to something otherwise..BTW why Sulaiman should write a letter with word Wa'inna'hu? Since Sulaiman is the initiator of the whole process by secretly spying on her.. If Sheba wrote first then probably a continuation... But Sulaiman started everything... And what could be best rather than starting "in the name of God", .. Even Noah said 1141 embark in the ark 'In the name Allah"
I am afraid... Am I dragging your topic bit off road...
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Dear Jkhan, Salam!
Simply, if you are right then where Ibrahim left his progeny or (al-Bayt) which was built by Ibrahim and Ismael is not AMAH because Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his nation was living near AMAH and Arabs or Muhammad (peace be upon him) are not from the progeny of Ismael
Right?
BTW, please note that Al-Kitab is singular. What was ( (8719?
Peace to all!
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Salam!
Nothing tell that the letter started with bismillah either. Give your proof.
Note there are 22 Ayats which start with Wa Innahu e.g., 26192, 26193, 2777, 434, and more.Peace!
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BTW why Sulaiman should write a letter with word Wa'inna'hu? Since Sulaiman is the initiator of the whole process by secretly spying on her.. If Sheba wrote first then probably a continuation... But Sulaiman started everything... And what could be best rather than starting "in the name of God", .. Even Noah said 1141 embark in the ark 'In the name Allah"
I am afraid... Am I dragging your topic bit off road...
I have told at the end of my first post that Suleiman quoted an Ayah or message of Allah in his letter.
Secondly, Noah said as follows
011041 And he said Embark therein! Pleasure of Allah starts/runs it and stops/anchors it. Lo! my Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
Would you please care to read my initial post again?Peace!
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Salam!
Nothing tell that the letter started with bismillah either. Give your proof.
Note there are 22 Ayats which start with Wa Innahu e.g., 26192, 26193, 2777, 434, and more.Peace!
Yes dear ... I agree with u... nothing confirms that letter commence with bismillah, but just assumption looking at the tone of the verse ... Same we can't say that letter start with Wa'inna'hu... God knows best....
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I have told at the end of my first post that Suleiman quoted an Ayah or message of Allah in his letter.
Secondly, Noah said as follows
011041 And he said Embark therein! Pleasure of Allah starts/runs it and stops/anchors it. Lo! my Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
Would you please care to read my initial post again?Peace!
Yes.. Instead of in the name of pleasure of Allah ..you are using... It's fine... But.. Point to note is NOAH used bismillah to start with... With the pleasure of Allah... What's wrong with it if Ism = pleasure...
I have no objection if it fits... Meaning perfectly fits... -
Dear Jkhan, Salam!
Simply, if you are right then where Ibrahim left his progeny or (al-Bayt) which was built by Ibrahim and Ismael is not AMAH because Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his nation was living near AMAH and Arabs or Muhammad (peace be upon him) are not from the progeny of Ismael
Right?
BTW, please note that Al-Kitab is singular. What was ( (8719?
Peace to all!
Peace TMTT...
Yes we are stepping into one of the key thresholds.. .. Al masjid Al haram...
Let's take one at a time... Gradually develop if you keep patient with the subject... In sha Allah...
First let me know...- what is you current opinion where Ismail lived and what language he spoke?
- where is Al masjid Al Haram now situated?
- Where Mohamed lived?
For all the above if your answer is Yes Macca and arabic was Ismail's language....
Then pls quote verses and bring other proofs like hints through QURAN.. Remember Macca is only once in Quran....
And based on that let's march forward the discourse... I asked them coz it seems you have a point to prove and you seems bit confident what you are up to. ...
Let's hope this dialogue would help whoever reads it.. So let's stick with Quran direct verses and hints and clues.. In sha Allah you will find me patient..... It would take many a days depending on the weight of argument.... Let's bring the truth with Quran with evidences and nature....
BTW suhufi Ibrahim wa' musa ... Yes... Both were given books... But Ibrahim's book missing... History missing... Apart from what Allah says in the book
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Salam Jkhan!
You and I may be right because the meaning perfectly fits but the problem or the question is Why translations/interpretations have been imposed on nations for around 1400 years or so? Why we were told that do not read Quran only coz you will get astrayed. Even the Quran Only believers who deny Hadith because it was written after many years of the prophet's death why they have much emphasis on Grammar which is also a later development.
See Kitab-Al-Ayn was the very first dictionary of Arabic language (some say it was the very first dictionary of any language) while it had a totally different alphabet arrangement. Why it all was changed through LUGHAT/Dictionaries, Hadith and so-called Grammar?
Why it is made hard for us to see the truth? When we will be able to see things as they are?If Quran is for all then everyone should be able to understand it but we do not use our eyes/sight, ears/hearing and the hearts/intellect. We always try to follow someone else because we do not do our own research. There are millions of us who utter/repeat Allah's name day and night but do not try to achieve the pleasure of Allah. That is why we are not being guided as the case should be.
May Allah bless and guide us all!
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Peace TMTT...
Yes we are stepping into one of the key thresholds.. .. Al masjid Al haram...
Let's take one at a time... Gradually develop if you keep patient with the subject... In sha Allah...
First let me know...- what is you current opinion where Ismail lived and what language he spoke?
- where is Al masjid Al Haram now situated?
- Where Mohamed lived?
For all the above if your answer is Yes Macca and arabic was Ismail's language....
Then pls quote verses and bring other proofs like hints through QURAN.. Remember Macca is only once in Quran....
And based on that let's march forward the discourse... I asked them coz it seems you have a point to prove and you seems bit confident what you are up to. ...
Let's hope this dialogue would help whoever reads it.. So let's stick with Quran direct verses and hints and clues.. In sha Allah you will find me patient..... It would take many a days depending on the weight of argument.... Let's bring the truth with Quran with evidences and nature....
BTW suhufi Ibrahim wa' musa ... Yes... Both were given books... But Ibrahim's book missing... History missing... Apart from what Allah says in the book
Right! Ibrahim was neither Jew nor Christian . When Allah tells what other people said then it does not mean that other people had knowledge or they were saying the truth.
Since Allah has sent messengers in every town and all messengers followed Allah's inspirations then the Book cannot be different . However, difference of language is not counted because every nation/town/people have their own language .Yes! we really need to ponder upon the message without any bias, sect or influence.
May Allah bless and guide us all!
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Salam Jkhan!
You and I may be right because the meaning perfectly fits but the problem or the question is Why translations/interpretations have been imposed on nations for around 1400 years or so? Why we were told that do not read Quran only coz you will get astrayed. Even the Quran Only believers who deny Hadith because it was written after many years of the prophet's death why they have much emphasis on Grammar which is also a later development.
See Kitab-Al-Ayn was the very first dictionary of Arabic language (some say it was the very first dictionary of any language) while it had a totally different alphabet arrangement. Why it all was changed through LUGHAT/Dictionaries, Hadith and so-called Grammar?
Why it is made hard for us to see the truth? When we will be able to see things as they are?If Quran is for all then everyone should be able to understand it but we do not use our eyes/sight, ears/hearing and the hearts/intellect. We always try to follow someone else because we do not do our own research. There are millions of us who utter/repeat Allah's name day and night but do not try to achieve the pleasure of Allah. That is why we are not being guided as the case should be.
May Allah bless and guide us all!
Peace...
We can't get answers to all these Whys.... Let's live with truth and guidance of God... And just simply neglect those who concoct stories.... Don't forget iblees is alive... Satans are looking at us... All their life they will do what they can do.... Be patient... -
Peace TMTT...
Yes we are stepping into one of the key thresholds.. .. Al masjid Al haram...
Let's take one at a time... Gradually develop if you keep patient with the subject... In sha Allah...
First let me know...- what is you current opinion where Ismail lived and what language he spoke?
- where is Al masjid Al Haram now situated?
- Where Mohamed lived?
For all the above if your answer is Yes Macca and arabic was Ismail's language....
Then pls quote verses and bring other proofs like hints through QURAN.. Remember Macca is only once in Quran....
And based on that let's march forward the discourse... I asked them coz it seems you have a point to prove and you seems bit confident what you are up to. ...
Let's hope this dialogue would help whoever reads it.. So let's stick with Quran direct verses and hints and clues.. In sha Allah you will find me patient..... It would take many a days depending on the weight of argument.... Let's bring the truth with Quran with evidences and nature....
Salam brother Jkhan!
Sorry for a delayed response! You have asked me three questions. I will try to answer one by one- what is you current opinion where Ismail lived and what language he spoke?
My opinion does not count until and unless it is supported by AQ. Regarding Ismael, we have a little knowledge as you can see in below Ayats
Allah tells that Ibrahim said as follows
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?All praise for Allah the one who gifted to/for me on the old age, Ismael and Ishaaq. Indeed my Lord surely Ever-Listening the call/prayer.?
This ayah tells that Ismael and Ishaaq both were gifted in response to a call/prayer. Where is that dua? {see Surah 3783-112}
037100 My Lord! Vouchsafe me of the righteous.
037101 So We gave him tidings of a gentle son.
Ishaaq was gifted later, see037112 And we gave him tidings of the birth of Isaac, a prophet of the righteous.
037113 And We blessed him and Isaac. And of their seed are some who do good, and some who plainly wrong themselves.
We may not know that what was Ismael?s language but we may know what he said or did. For example Allah made a promise with both Ibrahim and Ismail {2124-125}
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And Ibrahim called/prayed as follows
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And Ibrahim and Ismael both called/prayed as follows
_See also
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019054 And make mention in the Scripture of Ishmael. Lo! he was a keeper of his promise, and he was a messenger (of Allah), a prophet.019055 He enjoined upon his people worship and almsgiving, and was acceptable in the sight of his Lord.
I have sent a PM to you. Don't know if it reached you or not.
Peace!
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Salam brother Jkhan!
Sorry for a delayed response! You have asked me three questions. I will try to answer one by one- what is you current opinion where Ismail lived and what language he spoke?
My opinion does not count until and unless it is supported by AQ. Regarding Ismael, we have a little knowledge as you can see in below Ayats
Allah tells that Ibrahim said as follows
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?All praise for Allah the one who gifted to/for me on the old age, Ismael and Ishaaq. Indeed my Lord surely Ever-Listening the call/prayer.?
This ayah tells that Ismael and Ishaaq both were gifted in response to a call/prayer. Where is that dua? {see Surah 3783-112}
037100 My Lord! Vouchsafe me of the righteous.
037101 So We gave him tidings of a gentle son.
Ishaaq was gifted later, see037112 And we gave him tidings of the birth of Isaac, a prophet of the righteous.
037113 And We blessed him and Isaac. And of their seed are some who do good, and some who plainly wrong themselves.
We may not know that what was Ismael?s language but we may know what he said or did. For example Allah made a promise with both Ibrahim and Ismail {2124-125}
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And Ibrahim called/prayed as follows
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And Ibrahim and Ismael both called/prayed as follows
_See also
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019054 And make mention in the Scripture of Ishmael. Lo! he was a keeper of his promise, and he was a messenger (of Allah), a prophet.019055 He enjoined upon his people worship and almsgiving, and was acceptable in the sight of his Lord.
I have sent a PM to you. Don't know if it reached you or not.
Peace!
Peace TMTT
YES when I said your opinion I meant your understanding based on QURAN and your research on QURAN where it has not directly stated...
See as per 1955 Ismail has had his own community so he would have spoken to them in their language which is also his own language... Coz messengers are sent in the language of his community... That's Quran... So needs research... As per my research... Arabic was not a language during that old period.... Arabic is very latest language of this areas .... Had Ismail been the prophet of Arabs we can't expect that to say your ancestors not warned or verses like you were not aware of scripture or you were on the brim of hell fire... And no need to be even called Ummi....God call two groups people of the book... They lived duirng the period of Mohamed... But those people were not the real people who were actually given books.. But actually their ancestors... Just coz they were their decendants God called them as people of the book.. So same logic... Had any of the prophets were among Arabs these Arabs no need to be called ummi... Or even they don't need to claim we were not given books and not aware of it.... Ancestors are key...
- what is you current opinion where Ismail lived and what language he spoke?
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Salam JKHan!
Let's see what you are saying Ibrahim and Lut were from a nation and they had a common language. Then they left this nation and went to an area which was already blessed for nations. Now Ibrahim preached to a nation of his own language and Lut preached to a nation of his own language. Then Ismail was preaching to a nation/community of his own language and Ishaq was preaching to a nation/community of his own language. And Yousuf preached Egyptians in their language, which was his own language. And Muhammad preached his nation in their language, which was his own language.
Secondly You say Ancestors is the KEY. I believe in it.
What does 2277 say? Ibrahim is father of Mu'mineen.
Ancestors are of two type 1. Rightly guided e.g., Ibrahim and 2. Astrayed e.g. father of Ibrahim . Yes this is the key. Whom you follow?
Similarily, the progeny can be and . To which progeny Arabs belonged and to which progeny People of the Book belonged? Are you among the progeny of Ibrahim?I have another question for you. Who do you think was as per Quran-based knowledge? Give reference from Quran to support your view.
NOTE I have, so far, shared what I know through Quran only and have not tried to mix my knowledge about Science, Philosophy, History or Religion (ب. Nor have I given examples from dictionaries or grammar. I have shared translations of Pickthal however, I do not agree to the meaning of some words in this translation. This is just for reference.
Peace!