2:143-144 The previous qiblah& new
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Salaam,
2143 ...wama jaAAalna alqiblata allatee kunta AAalayha illa linaAAlama man yattabiAAu alrrasoola mimman yanqalibu AAala AAaqibayhi...
2143 ...and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith)...
2143...And We did not make the focal point that you were on except to know who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels...
Has anyone noticed where in the reading does it set the previous qiblah?
regards
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Peace
Has anyone noticed where in the reading does it set the previous qiblah?
Could this mean that there was commands outside the Quran?
Peace,
From this one it appears there could be, unless there is some nuance missed in the translation that I am not picking up. Alternatively, there may be the qiblah set elsewhere in the reading explained in different words.
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Salaams Ash,
As far as i can see
002.109
YUSUFALI Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things.
SHAKIR Many of the followers of the Book wish that they could turn you back into unbelievers after your faith, out of envy from themselves, (even) after the truth has become manifest to them; but pardon and forgive, so that Allah should bring about His command; surely Allah has power over all things.Their qibla they where on was their prevouse belief system.
002.115
YUSUFALI To Allah belong the east and the West Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.This is pointing us to the fact that Allah isn?t in any one direction ,like the Trads believe.
002.142
YUSUFALI The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.If the presence of Allah is whithersoever you turn ,how can he point you to one physical direction? As a straight way.As according to these ayate he is saying there is no physical straight way.And all physical straight ways are the same to him as far as he is concerned.
Salaams.
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Peace,
The original command is contained in the Quran
"God has made the Quadrangle to be the Restricted Sanctuary, to enforce for the people, and for the restricted month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in Earth, and that God is aware of all things." (597)
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Salam all,
The way I understand it is that there is an inferred original Qibla. However, as often in the qur'an, what is important is the end result. So, the message-to me- is that I am changing your Qibla to Al Masjid Alharam. Where and when the original Qibla was located, is not something I need to worry about.
Salam
Hussein
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Peace,
The original command is contained in the Quran
"God has made the Quadrangle to be the Restricted Sanctuary, to enforce for the people, and for the restricted month, and for the donations, and for regulation; that is so you know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in Earth, and that God is aware of all things." (597)
Salaamun Layth,
Mashallah, hence masjid i haram can not be the same as kaabata baytul haram if I understood this right.
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Salam all,
The way I understand it is that there is an inferred original Qibla. However, as often in the qur'an, what is important is the end result. So, the message-to me- is that I am changing your Qibla to Al Masjid Alharam. Where and when the original Qibla was located, is not something I need to worry about.
Salam
Hussein
Salaam Hussein,
I don't know about you but I believe the reading to be a complete book for guidance, those who do not believe this are using this to speculate there was other revelation binding upon us or rather muslims when the quran was revealed which is not in the quran. Hence, they argue the quran is not complete.
Wasalaam
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Salam Brother Ash Shura,
I do not think that I understood what you were trying to say. In case you were pointing to the fact that if there was a first Qibla, then it has to be mentioned in the Qur'an by name, then I disagree with you
What the Qur'an says is that the Qibla changed and therefore there was a first Qbla. What brother Layth has written is his theory, and he has the right to write about it. My point is that knowing that there was a first Qibla is enough knowledge for me to receive the message. I do not have to know where the first Qibla really was.
There are many things that are mentioned in the Qur'an indirectly. Moses had a mother, yet we do not know her name. The story of moses is still complete. His father in law, his wife, his sister, are all mentioned but none of them named.
The Israelites came to their prophet to choose a king. The Qur'an does not mention who that Prophet was. The story is still complete.
The Qur'an says that there was a night journey that the prophet took. It does not say how. The story is complete.
The Qur'an talks about people that plot against the prophet while they were claiming to be believers. It does not name them. The story is complete.
So my point is that What GOD wanted us to receive is complete. The details that GOD omitted from the Qur'an are details that will not add to the picture, and their absence will not diminish the picture.
Salam
Hussein
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Salaam brother Hussein,
Where I was not clear probably was that it does not make sense to issue a command asking us to change qiblah while there was not another in the quran. I think the arabic says from the previous appointed qiblah, hence it must have been revealed.
At the time of the revelations muslims must have been given a qiblah, or it was incomplete for them. Otherwise, you're talking revelation outside the quran...
I hope that explains what is puzzling me.
regards
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Thanks Brother Ash Shura for your explanation,
I would still say that the bottom line is what matters, which is the second Qibla. However, indirectly, we may find some signs. The one that comes to mind is this
1-I feel that since the second Qibla is a Masjid, then the original Qibla was another Masjid that is named by name for it's importance. The only other Masjid that is mentioned by name and that is considered blessed is the AL MASJID AL AQSA.
2- The reason I may disagree with Layth related to the fact that Al BAYT AL HARAM and AL MASJID AL HARAM being two different things, are several, and mainly this AYAH that seems to suggest that if they are not the same, then they had to be too close to each other.
52
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YA] O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the symbols of Allah, nor of the sacred month, nor of the animals brought for sacrifice, nor the garlands that mark out such animals, nor the people resorting to the sacred house, seeking of the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord. But when ye are clear of the sacred precincts and of pilgrim garb, ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part). Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour fear Allah for Allah is strict in punishment.O you who believe, do not violate the rites instituted by GOD, nor the Sacred Months, nor the animals to be offered, nor the garlands marking them, nor the people who head for the Sacred Shrine (Ka`bah) seeking blessings from their Lord and approval. Once you complete the pilgrimage, you may hunt. Do not be provoked into aggression by your hatred of people who once prevented you from going to the Sacred Masjid. You shall cooperate in matters of righteousness and piety; do not cooperate in matters that are sinful and evil. You shall observe GOD. GOD is strict in enforcing retribution.
Salam
hussein
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peace be upon you brother Ash,
Perhaps I have misunderstood your question, but it seems to me that at the moment, people have their own focal-points. I also believe this to be true of the time, when the message was delivered. Thus, whether it be power/wealth/Christianity/Judaism/Islam/sex/TV/drugs/physical building etc. we are asked to change from our prior focal-point to the one recommended in the reading. That is the main point (pardon the pun). Hence, is there any need to specifically mention a prior focal-point when it will be different for all of us?
Wakas
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Salaam brother Hussein,
Where I was not clear probably was that it does not make sense to issue a command asking us to change qiblah while there was not another in the quran. I think the arabic says from the previous appointed qiblah, hence it must have been revealed.
At the time of the revelations muslims must have been given a qiblah, or it was incomplete for them. Otherwise, you're talking revelation outside the quran...
I hope that explains what is puzzling me.
Salam All,
Why have all of us discounted the quite obvious possibility that parts of the original Quran given to Muhammad, which was complete, might be missing today?Apart from the "what was the first Qibla" problem currently discussed on this thread, there are other similar "unsolved" problems such as "establishing salaat in time of peace in the manner that He has taught you" and a few others which I can't quite re-call at the moment. I'm sure you know them too.
Probably explains why we still cannot come to a common agreement, after all these years of researching and debating, on the meanings of various key Quranic terms such as salaat, haj, zakat, bayt, masajid, etc.
Peace and may God enlighten Us.
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As always, context is required to understand verses, context, context, context.
I'll use the FM translation, though I'm used to reading Pickthall's usually, even though its not as accurate as FM, I like to see the distinction between words used. For instance, in this translation 'Restricted Temple' is used, but in Pickthall, it is referred to as 'Inviolable Place of Worship'. Both of these make me think of the mind and heart of a human being.
The previous focal point of people (which I'm not sure was ordered or just happened naturally) may have been something tangible and physical, whether it be some kind of tribute or shrine to their Creator (mosques, etc) or simply looking to the skies in despair and hope. This was changed (ordered) to test the faith of believers, it was commanded that they turn to their innermost self. And this is indeed a great test, as yet again Islam becomes something abstract rather than something literal. I'm sure it was hard for people to give up their physical reminders of their Creator, but anything physical in this world is a potential trap to suck people into materialism and idolatory behaviour.
This is all just my current opinion, subject to change of course, but it seems to make sense for now. I'll bolden some of the text in these verses for extra emphasis to the point I'm making, and for us to ponder more.
- The foolish from amongst the people will Say ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?? Say ?To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.?
- And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to know who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
- We see the shifting of thy face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.
- And if you come to those who have been given the Scripture with every sign they will not follow your focal point, nor will you follow their focal point, nor will some of them even follow each others focal point. And if you were to follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you would be one of the wicked.
- Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it as they know their own children; and a group of them hides the truth while they know.
- The truth is from your Lord, so do not be one of those who doubt.
- And to each is a direction that he will take, so you shall race towards good deeds. Wherever you may be, God will bring you all together. God is capable of all things.
- And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.
- And wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple. And wherever you may be you shall set yourselves towards it; that the people will have no room for debate with you, except those of them who are wicked. You shall not fear them, but fear Me; so that I may complete My blessings upon you and that you may be guided.
- As We have sent a messenger to you from amongst yourselves to recite Our revelations to you, and purify you, and teach you the Scripture and the wisdom, and teach you what you did not know.
- So remember Me that I may remember you, and be thankful to Me and do not disbelieve.
- O you who believe, seek help through patience and the contact-method, God is with the patient ones.
- And do not say of those who are killed in the sake of God that they are dead; no, they are alive but you do not perceive.
It is interesting at the end of this excerpt it talks about salat and then people who are dead and yet not. Both of these to me take place inside someone, salat being rememberence of God through your deeds and a dead person is still alive within someone, as memory and as inspiration. The qibla is a non-physical direction, it is a concept whereby a muslim concentrates on God in their heart and mind rather than anything physical on this planet.
Just an opinion though, God knows the Truth behind all matters, I'm sure this is a flawed way of thinking, but it sounds good right? I just keep thinking God would not want us to associate anything on earth with him, because He is far above His creation, but we keep slipping up and attributing things in this reality to Him. What do you think?
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Peace be upon you all,
The answer is very clear.
First, lets address the focus(qibla) we should be on. The focus is WITHIN. We are to look WITHIN, that is where the journey is, so we remove our shoes as Musa did.
The one who is appreciative(muhammadun) looks about the sky, but is re directed WITHIN.
So, what was the focus we were used to? That was appointed BEFORE this true qibla? It is the qibla of the EXTERNAL WORLD, the illusion of this world. The God says mankind is created weak, meaning we are created relying on the outside world, we grow up IMITATING what we see externally, but there comes a time when we have to "kill" this ego, "kill" this external thinking and bring forth our WILLS so instead of IMITATING (blind following) we cultivate our ability to reason, to weigh evidence and to follow the right path being given to us from the God's energy within us.
So again, the qibla that ALL HUMANS are born with is the external world, the rejectors still follow external qiblas, they don't even follow each others qiblas, but those who bend(change direction) with the benders(people who change direction) all follow the same qibla , the one within, the mental place of heraing and obeying the restrictions.
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peace be upon you brother Ash,
we are asked to change from our prior focal-point to the one recommended in the reading. That is the main point (pardon the pun). Hence, is there any need to specifically mention a prior focal-point when it will be different for all of us?
Wakas
Peace be upon you brother Wakas,
What is intriguing me here is that the previous qiblah was appointed. I take this was appointed by GOD, if thats is the case where in the reading is it?I think Layths answer made sense if indeed they are different.
For us it does not make any difference, but since the reading is complete fully detailed it must have been so for the previous generations.
Hence, I am looking not only from our own but from the perspective of all generations.
Peace
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Peace be upon you Kyle,
Your views are interesting as ever, however at times due to the so little I know I am struggling to keep up with your conclusions. Nonetheless most of what you say makes sense.
My struggling is in the way how you arrived to these conclusions and wherefrom? In other words I am struggling to verify this meaning. Maybe I'll exercise patience and not rush into something I am not ready to grasp. But always appreciate your help.
Peace D
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Salaams all,beatnik,idol,
From an article I came across
?The Arabs prior to Islam were committed in their hearts to idols, and what they saw around themselves with their own eyes they made into idols. Not only did they lower their heads and prostrate before them, but they donated everything they had, even gifts of agricultural produce, to their idols. 'al-Lat' was in Ta'if in the form of a cubic stone, and had a special field and meadow near Ta'if which was a holy place, and cutting trees, hunting and the spilling of blood were not lawful in its vicinity; the people of Mecca and other places made pilgrimage to it. 'al- 'Uzza' was a very powerful god equivalent to the planet Venus, and was situated in Nakhlah east of Mecca, and was? All this is embodied in their form of HAJJ.?
A DIFFERENT QIBLA FOR PEOPLE OF MOSES! ?1087
YUSUFALI We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers and give glad tidings to those who believe!"
The Message
- And We inspired to Moses and his brother ?Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point (Qibla) and hold the contact-method. And give good news to the believers
002.142
YUSUFALI The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.002.109
YUSUFALI Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things.Quranic Dictionary
Qabila=To accept/admit/receive/agree/meet anyone.
Qablu=Before/Formerly.
Qiblah=Towards/In the direction of..SO WHAT WHERE THEY USED TO ,AS IN 142 ,ANSWER IS IN 109,?BACK TO INFIDELITY? or their old way. Who knows they may have turned to their kaaba as well physically ,therefore Allah has said east,west are the same as he is everywhere.
002.115
YUSUFALI To Allah belong the east and the West Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.That was their Qibla they were used to ,but the meaning of this word is taken advantage of as are most of the important words to embody the pagan Riligion which was in existence in Mecca previously.
I think Br.Hafeez did an article on this very topic.
Salaams.
