87:19 = What are "The scripts of Abraham and Moses" ?
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Salam Everyone,
The Monotheist Group (The Quran A Monotheist Translation)
8716 No,you desire the worldly life.
8717 But the Hereafter is better and more lasting.
8718 This has been revealed in the previous scripts.
8719 The scripts of Abraham and Moses.Muslim commentators have never really identified "the scripts (or leaflets) of Abraham." they are arguing to say that Abraham, like all prohpets since Adam, had received revelation of books (numbering ten for Abraham - Cf. Raz?, XXXI, p.149).
As for the "books of Moses", they generally identify them with the books of the Torah, that is, the Pentateuch. Nowhere is it said in the Pentateuch that the Hereafter is better and more lasting than wordly life (verse 871. Salvation and blessing, in the Pentateuch, do not go beyond the horizon of earthly happiness. Some commentators still attribute to Moise books revealed "before the Torah", without any further precision (According to Qat?da, quoted by Tasf?r al-was?t, Page 1882).The vagueness of these attributions and their legendary allure manifest an obvious cultural break between the time of the Qur'an's utterance and that of the commentaries these, with regard to the verses which occupy us (87 18-19), have been identified, with a high probability (It's history so absolute certainty is difficult sometimes to know), by Genevi?ve Gobillot.
These are two apocrypha of the Old Testament, The Testament of Abraham and The Testament and the Death of Moses, title of the 19th chapter of the Book of Biblical Antiquities.
These two texts evoke the future life and its excellence in relation to the present life, in particular because of its perpetual duration, thus clearly joining the affirmations of the verse 8717 "the life of After is better and more durable".Thus verses 16-19 of the surah 87, as G. Gobillot asserts, that the Qur'an
"professes that apocryphal and pseudepigraphic writings must be considered as revealed and bear the divine message, like the canonical corpuses of Judaism and Christianity, because it draws explicit argument from some of them to support his own teaching ".NB if you want you I can provide you some passages of these Apocrypha that bring them closer to this sura.
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I am not agree with u but i understand your point of view coz i believed like u during a long time but a question what's the interest to talk about books who disappeared?
God speaks directly to people who can find these scripts...
Muhammad's speaking (specially here "the day of the counts" is not an innovation in his main message.
Quran is a REMINDER what people they can find around them.For your information these apocryphal'texts circulated for several centuries before the coming of the prophet and was translated into Arabic in particular.
But i agree to say it is not certain at 100%.
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I am not agree with u but i understand your point of view coz i believed like u during a long time but a question what's the interest to talk about books who disappeared?
God speaks directly to people who can find these scripts...
Muhammad's speaking (specially here "the day of the counts" is not an innovation in his main message.
Quran is a REMINDER what people they can find around them.For your information these apocryphal'texts circulated for several centuries before the coming of the prophet and was translated into Arabic in particular.
But i agree to say it is not certain at 100%.
That is a statement. An information about the past. Information about the past does not mean papers of that period are right before you. Allah the Exalted mentioned a city and its features. No historian had mentioned that city, Ultimately it was recovered and found as had been described. It is reader's choice to accept an information or reject it.
There is no mention of books. It is your imagination.
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Quran is a REMINDER (four times quoted in this surah)
From https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testament_of_Abraham#cite_ref-21
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When viewed as a religious text, the Testament of Abraham gives a unique message. Beyond the presence of angels and God and Death, he lesson demonstrated is simply being a good person, performing good acts, and avoiding bad ones. In the scenes of judgment, there is no distinction made between whether people are Jewish or Gentile, only whether they have performed good deeds or bad. The reader is then left with an idea of universally fair treatment, not influenced by lineage or any other traits, when it comes to judgment, where a person whose sins outweigh their good deeds will be sentenced to eternal punishment, while one whose good deeds outweigh their sins will move on to paradise.
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is referring to what is said in the verses before it. It is same as God saying that the Deen has been the same all the times.
Salam Novice,
I understand your point of view. Perhaps you are right.
But considering these facts/arguments
- This sentence (871 must be litterally translated like
Indeed(inna) This (hatha) surely (is) IN (lafee) Former sheets (alssuhufial-oola)
=> The word "revealed/said" for translate "fee" as many translators talk about is an interpretation to permit the traditionnal view- The use of "This" (hatha)
=> This word is used to express the proximity of Something # That-Thalika (22) is used to express the distance of Something OR/AND the foregoing.
=> For Meditation the word "al-quran" is Always use with This-quran and never by using That-Quran coz it is closed of people (recitation). But it uses That-AlKitab coz it comes from the sky (Far).
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The word "suhuf" is used in this wordly life to express the physical aspect of writings (real existence)
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8313 When Our signs are recited to him, he says "Old Tales/fables !"
=> People must know stories which looks like what the prophet said.
In conclusion i will not say for sure that the opponents of Muhammad had seen or/and studied these ancient writings, BUT it seems, through the Koran, that they heard and knew their contents and they knew that it came from physical writings that circulated around them.
Peace
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And they (non-believing Meccans) said to their people, "Why is it that he does not bring to us a supportive evidence of unprecedented display - sign from his Sustainer Lord?"
.20133
Why they propagate this, have not those evident signs and facts not brought to their knowledge those episodes which are mentioned in the papyri of earlier periods?
And had Our Majesty annihilated them with punishment before it (Qur?n) ?
Certainly they would have argued - raised a point , "Our Sustainer Lord! why did not You send towards us a Messenger ?
.20134
Thereat we would have followed Your Aa'ya'at Verbal passages of Book before we were humbled and put to shame?"
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http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/087.%20Al%20Aala/87.16a.gifNay, the fact is you people prefer the worldly life;
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/087.%20Al%20Aala/87.17a.gif
While the Hereafter is the Best and the Perpetual.http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/087.%20Al%20Aala/87.18.gif
Indeed this (the fact stated above) was undoubtedly mentioned in the Papers/papyri of earlier times;
http//haqeeqat.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/087.%20Al%20Aala/87.19.gif
The Papers/papyri of the earlier period are the reference of papers/papyri of the the period of Iebra'heim and Ms .
8719 is the disambiguation of the the papers of the Earlier Period referred in 8718.
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Salam Mazhar,
I do not see any contradiction in the signs that you quoted quite the contrary ! (Quran is the miracle (=ayat))
Specially the sign 20133...Again the message is the same life after death is better and more durable..(20132) so change your beahviour.A remark You said "Earlier" but it is better to translate as "previous" (compare one period to another in the past)
Imagine that you are trying to convince a person of what you are saying is the truth and that this truth is in writings that preceded you but that these writings or stories no longer exist and nobody knows the content! The effect is counterproductive!
Also read the arguments in response to Novice.
Peace
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A remark You said "Earlier" but it is better to translate as "previous" (compare one period to another in the past)
Not appropriate. The time frame is specified. Previous would be ambiguous since it needs reference to which it is previous. Its Arabic rendition is Sabiq.
It is Adjectival Phrase. The Papers belonging to earlier time-line, then the time-line is made specific, the times of -------, Both are not "previous" to Qur'an.
Noun is plural, feminine.
Root
Words from this Root in the Grand Qur'aan
a) Total occurrences 9
b) No of constructions 6
The basic perception and signification infolded in the Root, in the words of Ibn Faris , is this
That this leads us to a perception of extroversion and spaciousness/expansion in an object/thing. Arabs use it to refer to dishes-flat expanded plates which could accommodate food sufficient to satiate five to ten persons; and to refer places that are made to collect water and remain therein; an act of altering a word or an expression in such a manner that the meaning intended by the application thereof become altered. Thus the signification inherent in Root is alteration, extroversion, expansion for capaciousness wherein things could be placed/stored to remain therein.
The interesting and amazing part; reflective of intellect and factual knowledge of Arabs of the past, is the fact that they employed this Root to refer to Paper/Papyri-scrolls. Neither were they who conceived, manufactured or introduced paper/papyrus in the world; while the method of its production was a closely guarded secret by the Egyptians since it was a state monopoly. Why did Arabs use this Root to denote and signify paper/papyrus? Because all the above significations are there in the process of manufacture and end product and the objective that it satisfies.
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/00.Tabweeb%20Part%202/20.%20Roots%20originating%20in%20Surat%2020/10.%20AsShufe%20Suad%20He%20Fa/800px-Papyrus_plant.jpg
http//haqeeqat.pk/roots/(804).htm
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Salam Mazhar,
Suhuf as Papyrus is an interpretation.
Suhuf means first as a SUPPORT for something writed.
It is better to translate as Leaf, sheet, page..In the quran the root of the word suhuf has the following meaning
- 4371 = Plates
- 8110 = a support where all our actions are written
- Others = Physical Leaf/sheet specially support for divine truth
Muhammad recited from "suhuf" in 982 (only find in Egypta ??) and in Medina Jews have also "suhuf"..
982 A messenger from Allah reciting pages/leaf purified..
Look at sura 5336 => (sorry google translation)
Has he with him the knowledge of the occult so that he sees?
Have they not been informed of what was in the pages of Moses?
and Abraham, who was rewarded?
Let no burden bearer carry the burden of another,
and that man only gets the fruit of his efforts,
and that his effort will soon be visible,- Then he will be rewarded with a complete reward -
and the final term is to your Lord,
=> Again this themes can be finding in "apocrypha" not in the Torah..
But again you, like me, canno't be sure...
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Salam Mazhar,
Suhuf as Papyrus is an interpretation.
Suhuf means first as a SUPPORT for something writed.
It is better to translate as Leaf, sheet, page..In the quran the root of the word suhuf has the following meaning
- 4371 = Plates
- 8110 = a support where all our actions are written
- Others = Physical Leaf/sheet specially support for divine truth
Muhammad recited from "suhuf" in 982 (only find in Egypta ??) and in Medina Jews have also "suhuf"..
982 A messenger from Allah reciting pages/leaf purified..
Look at sura 5336 => (sorry google translation)
Has he with him the knowledge of the occult so that he sees?
Have they not been informed of what was in the pages of Moses?
and Abraham, who was rewarded?
Let no burden bearer carry the burden of another,
and that man only gets the fruit of his efforts,
and that his effort will soon be visible,- Then he will be rewarded with a complete reward -
and the final term is to your Lord,
=> Again this themes can be finding in "apocrypha" not in the Torah..
But again you, like me, canno't be sure...
No end for a meaningless wrangling.
Page means one or both sides of a sheet of paper in a book.