Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
-
Salam Wakas,
Is it intransitive in Arabic though?
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Swm#(218517)No it is transitive.
You may also find this interesting
http//islam-and-muslims.com/timing.htmlThank you for the link.
I know this article.
I have great respect for his research work and his willingness to discover the historical reality behind the layers of sedimentation of generations following the revelation and death of the prophet.
I am agree with somes aspects But I do not agree with him on some crucial points.Major disagreements
-
He said "A common misconception is that the word" shahr "means month. However, the term "shahr" does not mean month "
=> NO the word "shahr" means full month but the full lunar month because it is identifiable (visible) with the view by looking at the lunar phases.
=> In addition all other occurrences of this word in the quran point to 1 whole month or several months. -
He said "2185. The full moon of scorching heat is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses the full-moon, let him abstain it "
=> Incomprehensible translation into English. He does not use the verb "To fast" which is instransitive. It's a good point. The word "To abstain" certainly is more appropriate in relation with the deep meaning of the root word but how to abstain from a full moon?
In English this sentence does not make sense.
Unless the pronoun "it" points to a word other than the word "full moon" but it is not the intention of the author -
He said "Ramadan can be translated as the moment of diffussion of "intense heat".
=> He identifies this month around the summer solstice. But it is too early in the season to reflect the significance of the month of Ramadan). Based on the roots and research of historians, the first 5 months of the year areThe Arabic name of the months, especially that of the two rabia (rabia al awal and rabia ath-thani) was to correspond to spring, before the two dry months of joumada (joumada al oula and joumada ath-thania) and the "burning" month" of Ramadan so perhaps in august (like the month of av for the jews) or in september (if we follow the actual order by name, 9th month from january to december). -
He said "936. The count of the full-moons with The God is twelve full-moons in The God's book the day He created the heavens and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct obligation; so do not wrong yourselves in them; The God is with the forethoughtful.
My translation
"True/Indeed, the counting (enumerate) of months for God is twelve lunar months by a decree of God the day He created the heavens and the earth. Among them, four are sacred, this is the right custom / ad-din al-qayyim. During do not be unfair to yourself . But, fight the polytheists in all these times, just as they fight you there; and know that God is with those who fear him. ", S9.V36.
=> The purpose of this verse is pragmatic God gives you the opportunity to fight those who transgress the truce by fighting you in these sacred months, even though you yourself refused to do so out of respect for this sacredness. Apart from rationalist arguments, this information confirms that the term sacrality is contractual and that it is obviously not a divine prescription but a tradition instituted by the Arabs themselves, the historical fact is well During these four months, the Bedouins could move to trade without fear of an attack or to go to safety on various pilgrimages.
Peace
-
-
Shahru ramadana allatheeonzila feehi alqur-anu hudan lilnnasiwabayyinatin mina alhuda waalfurqanifaman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu waman kanamareedan aw AAala safarin faAAiddatun min ayyaminokhara yureedu Allahu bikumu alyusra wala yureedubikumu alAAusra walitukmiloo alAAiddata walitukabbiroo AllahaAAala ma hadakum walaAAallakum tashkuroona
The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the Criterion. Whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.It says whoever WITNESSES/SHAHIDA the Shahra. My question is, how do you witness a Month? You can however, witness a Full Moon like this one
Salam Sardar,
First point in red Sorry I repeat again but the verb "To fast" is INTRANSITIVE so you canno't say in English "fast IT". How do you fast a full-moon ?
Second point in red you are right. We canno't witness (with eyes) a full month. But you can attest the Truth of Something happen in this month right ? Look at the specific scheme "SHAHIDA" in the quran and you will discover that it is Matching better with the definition of "to attest the Truth of Something" in many cases.
I want to add that in real life you testify/witness Something that it was happened in the PAST...NB Thank you for the video links
Peace
-
Salam Safar,
First point in red Sorry I repeat again but the verb "To fast" is INTRANSITIVE so you canno't say in English "fast IT". How do you fast a full-moon ?
I am a little confused, didn't you said to Wakas, "No it is transitive" ?
-
I am a little confused, didn't you said to Wakas, "No it is transitive" ?
In Arabic, the verb falyaum'hu in 2185 (from SIYAM) doesn't mean "To fast".
This arabic verb is transitive while "to fast" in english is intransitive.
So to translate by "Fast IT" is grammatically incorrect..
Hope it is more clear. -
In Arabic, the verb falyaum'hu in 2185 (from SIYAM) doesn't mean "To fast".
This arabic verb is transitive while "to fast" in english is intransitive.
So to translate by "Fast IT" is grammatically incorrect..
Hope it is more clear.What is the pattern (Baab) of this verb?
-
Please we are deviating from my original post on this subject.
how to reconcile the month of Ramadan (29-30 days) with the expression "ayyman maddtin" (3-10 days) ?I wrote as to what the word is to enable perceiving its meanings.
Passive Participle indefinite; sound plural; feminine; genitive/ accusative.
I don't know from where you got its meanings as
Low number between 3 and 10 days. -
I wrote as to what the word is to enable perceiving its meanings.
Passive Participle indefinite; sound plural; feminine; genitive/ accusative.
I don't know from where you got its meanings as
Have a look at my first post ! But i made a mistake (bad reflex) => It is not Lane's lexicon but Lisan al-Arab ! sorry. ???
Ok i repeat it again
- Classic Dictionnary
1 / In the li?an al-3arab (dico reference), we read "ayy?m ma3d?d?t" corresponds to ten days but literally it means "a limited number of days".
2 / In Kazimirski (very good dico Arabic-French), one can also read "ayy?m ma3d?da" means "few days".
=> In short, what must be remembered is that this expression literally means a limited number of days but that, in the quran, it corresponds to 3 to 10-
Quran re-read my first post for quranic examples (confirmation)
-
For the Grammatical rule
Ayyaman is a plural with 3 minimum and no maximum and ma3doudatin just block this plural to 10
for the rule of the plural in "alif ta" I refer to Nouman ali Khan -
Have a look at my first post ! But i made a mistake (bad reflex) => It is not Lane's lexicon but Lisan al-Arab ! sorry. ???
Ok i repeat it again
- Classic Dictionnary
1 / In the li?an al-3arab (dico reference), we read "ayy?m ma3d?d?t" corresponds to ten days but literally it means "a limited number of days".
2 / In Kazimirski (very good dico Arabic-French), one can also read "ayy?m ma3d?da" means "few days".
=> In short, what must be remembered is that this expression literally means a limited number of days but that, in the quran, it corresponds to 3 to 10-
Quran re-read my first post for quranic examples (confirmation)
-
For the Grammatical rule
Ayyaman is a plural with 3 minimum and no maximum and ma3doudatin just block this plural to 10
for the rule of the plural in "alif ta" I refer to Nouman ali Khan.
Where is it (3 blocked to 10 days)
-
.
Where is it (3 blocked to 10 days)
You know Brother classical dictionnary are useful but keep in mind that you can find almost all what you want to justify your OWN interpretation of texts (quran here - Cf. below).
This research must be confirmed by EVIDENCES (quran himself first, real history..).So let me show you again ?vidences by searching the expression "Ayyaman/Ayyamin ma'doodat.." (in four occurrences inclued 2184)
-
(2203) (280 is similar) And remember God during a few limited number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no one who is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to be gathered.
=> 3 days (Hajj) -
(324) That is because they said "The Fire will not touch us except for a few limited days," and they were arrogant by what they invented in their system.
=> 7 days as the number of days in one Week (see Tafsir from "ibn kathir" and the importance of the number 7 for the jews)
I can also add the fifth occurrences as Passive participle / Adjective (without Ayyam..)
- (220) And they sold him for a low price, a mere few dirhams, and they regarded him as insignificant.
=> Few coins like <= 10
----- CAUTIOUS - lexical entries -----
Lexical Analysis obviously uses the dictionaries of the classical Arabic language.
However, this step requires some precautions, because we must be aware that Koranic Arabic is not classical Arabic and, since it is not really a living language, the first major encyclopaedias of the Arabic language do not do not necessarily present a synchronic state of the Qur'anic vocabulary.
In reality, the Koranic language and, at present, its vocabulary, are only partly known to us through the oriented prism of the first exegesis of the Koran.
From the beginning, the first dictionaries had the ambition to fix the canon of the Arabic language, not so much from the Koranic language, but from a linguistic normalization of the Koran. This was achieved gradually by the collection of a lexical fund drawn from the various idioms of Arabia as well as by the use of so-called pre-Islamic poetry, but also by the broad influence of Orthodox Exegesis on the way of constitution. On this last point, it is easy to note that the history of the elaboration of these corpus reveals strong diachronic and anachronistic circular links between the lexicons of the Arabic language and Exegesis.
Thus, it seems that the oldest known lexicon of the Arabic language is the kitab al-'ayn of Ibn Amad al-Far?hid? . However, in establishing the meanings of terms, the latter has very often resorted to terminological explanations drawn directly from exegeses of the Koran. As a result, this phenomenon will be more and more marked as evidenced by the lexicon of the Quranic terms of Ar-Ragib al-Ifah?n? Mufradat alf? al-qur'?n, end of the 6th century H.The loop is completed when the compilation of the great encyclopaedia of the Arabic language Al-lis?n al-'arab completed by Muhammad ibn Man?r at the end of the seventh century hegira.
Finally, in a concrete way, note that if these large lexical Arabic corpus quote their exegetical or hadistic sources, the current bilingual classical dictionaries do not report them unfortunately, which has the consequence of increasing the lexical indistinction and amplifying the lexical drift during translation processes.
In the end, it is a good part of the Koranic vocabulary that has been reduced in meaning or, on the contrary, amplified according to exegetical and legal developments subsequent to the Koran. -
-
There exists in Spanish the expression "Something (whatever) counted". This Arabic ma3dudaat recalls it. It does not mean a specific, exact number of days, but rather a number which is not specified but that is limited and logically should allo to be counted without spending unreasonable time or efforts. Dependign on the matter it could mean that it does not go very far for certain purposes.
My feeling is that it does nto set a fixed number, but rather a number which may be tailored to the needs and capacities of the concerned person. Which is also consistent with the general outlook of the Qur'an which tends to give freedom to each one to tailor his or her own way through whatever process which may be undertaken.
If somebody is not capable for whatever reason to fast one month, may be a number of days is better tha nothing, right? Do not refrain for doing the lesser just because you are nto able to do the greatest.
Salaam
-
There exists in Spanish the expression "Something (whatever) counted". This Arabic ma3dudaat recalls it. It does not mean a specific, exact number of days, but rather a number which is not specified but that is limited and logically should allo to be counted without spending unreasonable time or efforts. Dependign on the matter it could mean that it does not go very far for certain purposes.
My feeling is that it does nto set a fixed number, but rather a number which may be tailored to the needs and capacities of the concerned person. Which is also consistent with the general outlook of the Qur'an which tends to give freedom to each one to tailor his or her own way through whatever process which may be undertaken.
If somebody is not capable for whatever reason to fast one month, may be a number of days is better tha nothing, right? Do not refrain for doing the lesser just because you are nto able to do the greatest.
Salaam
Salam Huruf,
Thank you for your intervention.
Indeed from a relative point of view you are right. If you think the Qur'an is talking about a month of fasting based on a lunar calendar then I wish you a good Ramadan and God send you his graces so that you get closer to him (like my wife ! ).
And if you are faithful to God and you do good works then we are brothers in faith and even better, beyond that we are brothers in humanity first.Now my target is to understand what the Qur'an actually says (whether it is in agreement or not with our traditional understandings), which speaks to an Arab people of the 7th century who had their linguistic uses that could evolve thereafter.
And the use of this era was to use the expression "Ayyaman ma'doodat" as meaning a very limited number of days between 3 and 10, as evidenced by the Koran itself. After, everyone is free to accept it or not.
Same, when I see the English translations of the passage of 2185 by using the expression "Fast it" it is my duty to emphasize the fact that this expression is incorrect grammatically. This is a truthful fact. Muhammad ASAD saw the problem and he added the word "throughout it" or Corpus.coran to add the word "in it" that does not appear in the Arabic expression. God warns us enough in the Qur'an not to change the meaning. Then everyone is free to accept the truth or not.Peace
-
Yes the formulation is unusual. If you mean somebody todo the whole month, there are many ways which you can underlie that it is indeed the whole month. The formulation, to me, suggests tht you are conscious of it, of the occasion, the month for the purpose or in the purpose of fasting. You might fast any number of days or months on some other ocassions, but you are told to fast this one. It may mean that you become conscious that you are part of a community who remembers God and all those things that are touched by the fast, like the consciousness of those who may suffer from want or hunger, all living beings. So the important thing in this case would not be the number of days or how hard you do fast but rather that you do it as part of a common endeavour to improve the sould of your society with the people who shares your same aims and spiritual endeavour.
Salaam
-
There exists in Spanish the expression "Something (whatever) counted". This Arabic ma3dudaat recalls it. It does not mean a specific, exact number of days, but rather a number which is not specified but that is limited and logically should allo to be counted without spending unreasonable time or efforts.
Take note that they (Clergy) told people, "The Fire will certainly never touch us except for a period of numbered days".
You question them, "Have you people succeeded in obtaining a contract from Allah the Exalted in this regard? If that is the case, Allah the Exalted will never breach His contracted obligation!
.280
Or, that not being the case, are you people attributing to Allah the Exalted that about which you have no knowledge?"
Take note; if Our Majesty delayed the infliction of punishment from them towards a determined/counted period (respite period) they would certainly say "What detains that infliction?"
The fact is that the Day it comes to them it will not be averted from them.
.1108
And that hemmed them about which they consciously adopted a non serious jesting attitude keeping themselves playful with.
.11104
Beware, Our Majesty are postponing it but for the terminating moment of a determined duration.
And they (the caravan merchants) sold him (minor boy Yu'suf) at the lowered bargain price, by settled number of Dirhams ?
.1220
While they (the caravan people) were interested more to give him away-get rid of him.
The Passive Participle (derived from passive verb) refers to something which is counted by number. Its exact number-quantity is not disclosed.
Take note that they (Clergy) told people, "The Fire will certainly never touch us except for a period of numbered days".
You question them, "Have you people succeeded in obtaining a contract from Allah the Exalted in this regard? If that is the case, Allah the Exalted will never breach His contracted obligation!
.280
Or, that not being the case, are you people attributing to Allah the Exalted that about which you have no knowledge?"
The Fasting is during a fixed number of days; day and night-29 or 30 of the lunar month.
Sequel to this imposition one may adjourn it who is suffering amongst you some sickness or is embarking on a journey. Thereby, the adjourned fasting be accomplished to the count during the days of another month.
And you people remember and celebrate Allah the Exalted during appointed days ?
For reason that someone hurried back in two days there is not at all blemish-worthy is upon such person, and he who postponed his departure there is not at all blemish-worthy him, too. This is for one who did it consciously in the cause of Allah the Exalted .
This eluding from the Book (Qur?n) they justify by proclaiming; "The Hell-Fire will certainly not touch us in the Hereafter except for a period of numbered days".
http//haqeeqat.pk/Quran.Corpus-1.htm
-
Salam!
I think are (upto) 10 since almost every human being can count fingers of his/her hands with a very little effort.
If AQ is a universal messahe then its rulings should be applicable worldwide. Yet I am not 100% sure about this number. Need solid proof.
Peace! -
peace,
BUT the problem is that the Quran seems to tell us in 2185 to "fast" 1 whole lunar month is about 29-30 days!...
How do you fast a full-moon ?
Is “Fast the (whole) month” = Fast 24x30 hours? Do you take it in that way?
Not right? It’s common sense. And you understand that there is daytimes in each month and Qur’an says fast the daytime + Fajr.Likewise, there is daytime for each Full moon,
So "Fast the full moon" = Fast its daytime(from Fajr).And even before saying this (Fast the full moon 2185), Qur'an says Fasting is for Ayyaman ma'doodat (2184).
Thus fast the Full moon + Ayyaman ma'doodat.=> In addition all other occurrences of this word in the quran point to 1 whole month or several months.
Let’s test for the verse 2226,
-
Shahr = The whole lunar cycle
Suppose the couple estranges on the 14th day of the lunar cycle, now they have to count 4 whole lunar cycle right, but, since it’s the 14th day, they have to wait ~15 days extra(which is not included in the count), for the 1st shahr (lunar cycle) to begin i.e. the total waiting period will be 4 lunar cycles + extra 15 days of the beginning. If it's on the 4th day of the lunar cycle, then ~25 not-in-count days.
But the Qur’an does not mention solutions for such cases.
At the same time if the couple estranged right before the beginning of the lunar cycle, then they need to wait only/exactly 4 lunar cycles. -
Shahr = Full moon
Here, no such problems in counting -whether couple estranges on 1st day or on 14th day, they just have to wait for the full moon to happen for counting the 1st shahr.
-
-
Yes the formulation is unusual. If you mean somebody todo the whole month, there are many ways which you can underlie that it is indeed the whole month. The formulation, to me, suggests tht you are conscious of it, of the occasion, the month for the purpose or in the purpose of fasting. You might fast any number of days or months on some other ocassions, but you are told to fast this one. It may mean that you become conscious that you are part of a community who remembers God and all those things that are touched by the fast, like the consciousness of those who may suffer from want or hunger, all living beings. So the important thing in this case would not be the number of days or how hard you do fast but rather that you do it as part of a common endeavour to improve the sould of your society with the people who shares your same aims and spiritual endeavour.
Salaam
Salam Huruf,
bravoin Black). Even if i don't think like you about the definition of the term "SIYAM" i hope your douaa (request) will be listening by humanity.
Never forget the purpose of Something..For me, SIYAM is so that, perhaps (laallakum = maybe..), being preserve the day of judgment of the evil by doing good deeds.
Peace
-
Salam!
I think are (upto) 10 since almost every human being can count fingers of his/her hands with a very little effort.
If AQ is a universal messahe then its rulings should be applicable worldwide. Yet I am not 100% sure about this number. Need solid proof.
Peace!Salam brother,
Good reasoning but solid proof already exist in the Quran and the science of anthropology
Peace
-
peace,
Is “Fast the (whole) month” = Fast 24x30 hours? Do you take it in that way?
Not right? It’s common sense. And you understand that there is daytimes in each month and Qur’an says fast the daytime + Fajr.Likewise, there is daytime for each Full moon,
So "Fast the full moon" = Fast its daytime(from Fajr).And even before saying this (Fast the full moon 2185), Qur'an says Fasting is for Ayyaman ma'doodat (2184).
Thus fast the Full moon + Ayyaman ma'doodat.Salam Brother,
I don't really understand you.. -\ Sorry.
Just a remark. You said "Fast the full moon" but it is grammatically incorrect . you canno't say that.
You can say "Fast throughout the full-moon" but the word "throughout" is missing from the arabic expression in the Quran.Let’s test for the verse 2226,
-
Shahr = The whole lunar cycle
Suppose the couple estranges on the 14th day of the lunar cycle, now they have to count 4 whole lunar cycle right, but, since it’s the 14th day, they have to wait ~15 days extra(which is not included in the count), for the 1st shahr (lunar cycle) to begin i.e. the total waiting period will be 4 lunar cycles + extra 15 days of the beginning. If it's on the 4th day of the lunar cycle, then ~25 not-in-count days.
But the Qur’an does not mention solutions for such cases.
At the same time if the couple estranged right before the beginning of the lunar cycle, then they need to wait only/exactly 4 lunar cycles. -
Shahr = Full moon
Here, no such problems in counting -whether couple estranges on 1st day or on 14th day, they just have to wait for the full moon to happen for counting the 1st shahr.
Shahr = 1 lunar month and It is a period of time like in average 29-30 days a month. Full-moon is just a stage like crescent?
So where is the problem ?
In your example "Suppose the couple estranges on the 14th day of the lunar cycle" => solution you will finish the 14th day of the lunar cycle after 4 months expired (duration). simple.Peace
-
