Ramadan : Does Verse 2:184 is abrogated by 2:185 ?
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Salam Iyyaka,
Apologies but I am confused now.
Previously my understanding is you are establishing that ayyaman ma'dudat = 3-10 days.
Now, after ayyaman ma'dudat has been established to be 3-10 days, I am reading 2203.
In the beginning of the verse, God commands to remember Him in 3-10 days. And then the verse continues, if for some reasons we are in hurry and cannot do within 3-10 days, then it is ok only 2 days. And then the verse continues, if we want to stay longer than what was commanded in the beginning (3-10 days), then it is also ok.
But from your answer it seems the maximum delay is 10 days. The reason why I am confused is because it would seem redundant to say it is ok if you delay when it is not really a delay (still within ayyaman ma'dudat, i.e. still within 3-10 days as mentioned in the beginning of the verse).
I hope you understand my confusion.
Wassalam,
Ade -
Salam ade_cool,
Sorry for my ugly english and no problem brother (it is my fault).
Read again the end of my previous post => Verses 2203 is connected with 2196.
So, you have 2 options
Option (1) For the Hajj, you have NORMALLY to remember Allah, with strong insistence, 3 full days.
Option (2) But if you canno't offer a sacrifice, and you don't live in the city of the Hajj, it is recommended by Allah to remember Allah 3 days + 7 days = 10 days
So by saying "ayyaman ma'dudat" Allah covers the 2 situations.. the first part of the 2103 is a general recommendation and also a help for understanding the second part of (22036)
Indeed, The second part of ayat 2103 is about the people who are staying in the place of the Hajj (didn't come back home).
For them, 3 days is enough normally. If they come back home after 2 days it is ok too and more 3 days until 10 it is ok too (with "ittaqā" of course..)I hope it is more clear. Don't hesitate if not.
Peace brother
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Salam ade_cool,
Sorry for my ugly english and no problem brother (it is my fault).
Read again the end of my previous post => Verses 2203 is connected with 2196.
So, you have 2 options
Option (1) For the Hajj, you have NORMALLY to remember Allah, with strong insistence, 3 full days.
Option (2) But if you canno't offer a sacrifice, and you don't live in the city of the Hajj, it is recommended by Allah to remember Allah 3 days + 7 days = 10 days
So by saying "ayyaman ma'dudat" Allah covers the 2 situations.. the first part of the 2103 is a general recommendation and also a help for understanding the second part of (22036)
Indeed, The second part of ayat 2103 is about the people who are staying in the place of the Hajj (didn't come back home).
For them, 3 days is enough normally. If they come back home after 2 days it is ok too and more 3 days until 10 it is ok too (with "ittaqā" of course..)I hope it is more clear. Don't hesitate if not.
Peace brother
Salam Iyyaka,
Brother, there is nothing wrong with your English
Thanks for explaining further! I am starting to understand what you are saying ...I will let you know if I have further questions.
Wassalam,
Ade -
peace,
Now, as a non expert in classic arabic grammar rules, i made my research. As i said, Nouman ali KHAN (well-know traditionnal shcolars) knows this rule.
And I give you also what an expert said about the richness of Classical Arabic to express plural
"
you have to know that Arabic, unlike French or English, expresses the plural in a very special and rich way, in addition to the plural Dual, which does not exist in French/English, there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot).
When you take a word, and its plural is broken (adding other letters) it is called a broken plural (jam3 tekssir) and this plural can give an indication of the number-1) It is a plural "Killa" (between 3 and 10) and suddenly it is built on three schemes (1) Af3ila (2) Af3ul (3) Af3al (4) Fi3la
-2) or It is a plural "kathra" and it has about thirty schemes (F3oul, Af3ilae etc...)
I give you an example The word CHAHR which means MONTH
To put it in the plural "Killa" we will say ACHHUR (on the Af3ul sceme)
whereas in the plural "Kathra" it gives CHHOUR(on the F3oul scheme)the 2 plurals obtained, are translated into English by MONTH (plural) without any indication.
While an arab-speaking world knows that "Achhur" does not exceed 10 (between 3 and 10)
while CHHOUR can go from 3 to infinity.you have an illustration of that in the Qur'an
(92) "Travel the land for four months; and know that you will not reduce Allah to impotence and may Allah cover the disbelievers with disgrace."
=> Here because the number of months is 4, the Koran uses the plural killa, ie ACHHUR.
see also the same use for the 4 sacred months, or the months of the Hajj...As soon as their number exceeds 10, the plural changes and becomes a plural Kathra
(936) "The number of months, with Allah, is twelve , in the prescription of Allah,"
=> Here the plural used is CHHOUR, because the number exceeds 10.While in English, translation does not change.
To be honest not all the shcolars Believe in these rule (number 10 as a max) for "ayyāman maʿdūdātin"
This is an interesting observation. It would be interesting to find out if this is consistent in Quran. Would require a lot of research however.
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Salam Wakas,
I think i have demonstrated by quranic's proofs the function of "ayyaman ma'dudat" as a weak plurial form between 3 and 10.
I recognized that they are scattered in several posts but many convincing QURANIC signs have been brought.
I am waiting for counter-examples by the Quran.
Allah's word is precise and detailed.Yes this study needs a summary article.
Peace
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peace Iyyaka,
To clarify, in my previous post I was not referring to any proofs regarding "ayyāman maʿdūdātin". I was referring to " there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot)...." to which I said "This is an interesting observation. It would be interesting to find out if this is consistent in Quran. Would require a lot of research however.".
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peace Iyyaka,
To clarify, in my previous post I was not referring to any proofs regarding "ayyāman maʿdūdātin". I was referring to " there is a plural "Killa" (little) and a plural "kathra" (a lot)...." to which I said "This is an interesting observation. It would be interesting to find out if this is consistent in Quran. Would require a lot of research however.".
Ok sorry - i misunderstood.
Peace -
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Salam spodacus,
Sorry but i don't know how can i help you on this subject with the question of weak/strong plurial !
i imagine this question (number of people in the cave) has been already treated in this forum (i didn't make research).
I have 2 arabic linguistics to find the good number and also rhetorical proofs (but too big for this forum).
Peace
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Salam, if you ever had the time to post your research, I would be very much interested in reading it. Thanks! peace
Sorry,
ERRATUM - "I have 2 arabic linguistics to find the good number" => "I have 2 arabic linguistics proofs to find the good number". The word "proof" was missing in my previous intervention.
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Salam!
As-salat, Ramadan/fasting and Hajj/zikr have a fast relation. There are total 10 days. One has to fast for these 10 days, however, if he wishes to perform hajj then it is of 3 days maximum. 2196 tells that a person who does not find ھدی he/she can fast 3 days during Hajj. And after that 7 days' fast. This is for those whose family is not in the vicinity. If he/she is in hurry then perform hajj for 2 days {2203} and 7 days of fasting. If he/she is travelling then fast during other days but complete the count of 10.
Month or moons الاھلتہ/شھر of Ramadan and Hajj are the same. میقات للناس و الحج، while As-salat is also موقوتا.
I have shared my understanding. Apologies for any mistakes. Would request you all think on these lines and hope you will see the connection.
Peace! -
No abrogation anywhere in the Qur'an, not even here.
What was said in 2184 is about Siyaam of "those before you", this is why it's in a separate aayet. What was said in 2185 is about Siyaam for us.
Šehru rameDaane is "revelation of lasting remedy". "A problematic verb" used is in a jussive mood, which gives some explanation in the context, in this case it's telling that whoever witnessed "revelation of lasting remedy" (ie. the Qur'an, which is the main topic here) he already made Siyaam, no need for it. But, whoever was on a journey or was ill (the reasons not to witness) then they'll do Siyaam other day.
