Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha
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peace jkhan,
It seems your view is based on presumptions. You nor I can change the Arabic.
Your basic claim is that the old man was already righteous and Moses already determined that hence agreed, rendering the Arabic redundant
"...you will find me, God willing, of the righteous..." (imperfect, future tense)
We don't want to neglect Arabic or its pattern... And I think I or you won't... Problem here is I think you forgot your initial question and opinion...you keep skipping or jumping one to another... Below your statement
///Arabic "sa" is a prefixed particle (i.e. coming before the verb "find me" indicating ACTION in the FUTURE. The OBVIOUS PROBLEM for the conventional understanding is how can one be of the patient ones AFTER HAVING been sacrificed/killed?///
who explained to you that Ibrahim's son was patient after being sacrificed...? Look brother... Note both stories Ibrahim and musa...
Ibrahim saw a dream... Explained to his son... And wanted his suggestion and opinion...his son agreed... This consent of Ibrahim's Son is very crucial... From the moment until Ibrahim about to sacrifice we have no clue how many days passed away.. Anyhow till the sacrifice took place Ibrahim's son was patient and offered his father total commitment to make his job easy... So the future was from the time Ibrahim's son agreed for his father's request until God called Ibrahim.. So Ibrahim saw the promised patience of his son.. He didn't betray...
Same way... Musa had a conversation with the old man that too very amicable one like Ibrahim did with his son.. Then old man put his wish into Musa's ear.. Same way like Ibrahim asked his son.. What old man asked is would you like to marry one ofy daughter but with a condition ..? Musa agreed.. Same way Ibrahim's son agreed... Here the one who put the condition is telling you will find me patient in sha Allah... Coz he is the one who is going to make conditions throughout 8yrs.. Observer will be musa... In Ibrahim's case.. His son is the one who surrenders to Ibrahim's request and observer will be Ibrahim..
So.. Ibrahim story....
Asking suggestion (ibrahim) >>> Acceptance of sacrifice (son) >>> 'sathajiduni' you will find me ..future till sacrifice action took place.. .... Isn't the acceptance the key ?So.. Musa story...
Asking suggestion (Old Man) >>> Acceptance of marriage (Musa) >>> 'sathajiduni' you will find me ..future till term complete .. .... Isn't the acceptance the key in both?
If Musa and Ibrahim's son not accept the requests then NO future...
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Peace,
Other example of "You will find me, God willing, to be patient"
1869 He said (Moses) "You will find me, God willing, to be patient. And I will not disobey any command of yours."
1870 He said "If you follow me, then do not ask about anything until I mention it to you."
1871 So they ventured forth until they rode in a boat and he made a hole in it. He said "Have you made a hole in it to drown its people? You have done something dreadful!"
1872 He said "Did I not tell you that you will not be able to have patience with me?"For Moses, this is the future that precedes the following action they ventured forth until they rode in a boat and he made a hole in it. Moses was not patient
In the case of Abraham's son, this is the future that precedes the following action Abraham has confirmed the vision, they both had submitted, .
The clear test is the confirmation of the vision by Abraham, the patience of his son, and their submission.
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Salaam,
peace,
Quote
I think that when his son said ... you will find me, if God willed, of the patient ones. / ... satajiduni, in sha'a Allahu, mina alssabireena,
refers to the MOMENT ( if3al ma tu amru i.e when Abraham would do what he saw in his dream),
and NOT AFTER if3al ma tu amru.if3al ma tu amru do what you order in the present,
Abraham's vision He did not say I was ordered to do.Peace Houriya,
When his son said "if3al ma tu amru", what was he referring to?
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It's that time of the year again (according to Traditional Islam)
Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.htmlAssociated article Questions to ask yourself about the traditional story
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html -
Peace Wakas,
Excellent article and beautiful photos.
Abraham's vision is similar to the vision of the king, which was interpreted by Joseph 7 lean cows that eat 7 fat cows ...
Happy Eid Elkebir Day, just kidding, without offense to the people who celebrate it.
Peace
It's that time of the year again (according to Traditional Islam)
Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.htmlAssociated article Questions to ask yourself about the traditional story
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html -
Mufti Abu Layth attempts to reconcile the verses
https//youtu.be/Lt3IxKtL_54?t=2811Reasonable effort but you will note in terms of Quranic analysis it falls short. I find it interesting how many will claim Quran is so eloquent, such sublime style etc but when it comes to interpreting difficult passages they will interpolate frequently, and claim God really meant this God really meant that etc. That doesn't sound eloquent to me.
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Abraham will experience / observe his son's patience? ( i.e. no separation?)
That's a decent point and yes it could imply that. We'd have to research all similar occurrences to be sure.
It could be argued when Abraham said goodbye and left he found his son to be patient AND he was later given news of his son as a prophet implying he was of the righteous and thus of the patient ones.
In addition to what I said above. It could also be argued it could refer to Abraham living the rest of his life not hearing about his son searching for him or trying to meet him etc.
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It's that time of the year again (according to Traditional Islam)
Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.htmlAssociated article Questions to ask yourself about the traditional story
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.htmlSee above.
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bump
It's that time of the year again (according to Traditional Islam)
Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.htmlAssociated article Questions to ask yourself about the traditional story
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html -
Salaam,
I do believe God told Ibrahim to sacrifice his son. There is a great lesson in Ibrahim and Musa's stories regarding "killing innocent people". Where we can see that Ibrahim passed and Musa did not pass the test. Of course this is not to compare between God's messengers, because we are not allowed to differentiate between them, but this is more to the wisdom that we must place God's revelation above conscience.Ibrahim passed because he put revelation on top of his conscience. Musa failed because he prioritized his conscience rather than instructions from someone who was given the way by God, the revelation itself.
This is not a kind of test that is given to us in our daily life, we will not be tested to kill our son or daughter, or let someone kill for no reason.
But this is for us to always prioritize God's revelation above our personal judgement.
We are Muslims and we surrender to God. God really knows what is best for us, and in many cases, what is good for us is not necessarily what we want based on our personal judgement.
2216 Warfare has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; and God knows while you do not know.
Peace
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Salaam,
I do believe God told Ibrahim to sacrifice his son. There is a great lesson in Ibrahim and Musa's stories regarding "killing innocent people". Where we can see that Ibrahim passed and Musa did not pass the test. Of course this is not to compare between God's messengers, because we are not allowed to differentiate between them, but this is more to the wisdom that we must place God's revelation above conscience.Ibrahim passed because he put revelation on top of his conscience. Musa failed because he prioritized his conscience rather than instructions from someone who was given the way by God, the revelation itself.
This is not a kind of test that is given to us in our daily life, we will not be tested to kill our son or daughter, or let someone kill for no reason.
But this is for us to always prioritize God's revelation above our personal judgement.
We are Muslims and we surrender to God. God really knows what is best for us, and in many cases, what is good for us is not necessarily what we want based on our personal judgement.
2216 Warfare has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; and God knows while you do not know.
Peace
Salam. ..
You got it wrong. Without any hesitation I confirm you.. When our personal preferences go beyond Quran's real meaning then even a believer falters..
1... Prove that God advises evil.. Never.. War to deliver innocent people or if intention of war only to stand against rebellious people who harm innocent of any nature then war is never hateful though it sheds blood.. Never compare that to killing innocent people.. Ibrahim got that wrong.. Ibrahim assured to himself the dream unfortunately..
2.... Prove that in Musa's story he killed that boy... You can never, you will never coz no one killed the boy. I challenge you and anyone that you will never be able to prove within Quran that boy was killed and REPLACED with another boy... Never.. See my translation of the verse which is in concern for you. .. https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9612311.0
When you claim something from Quran then prove it. otherwise never claim.. Isn't it? So don't escape from my challenge..God never commands through dreams.. God commands through literal SPEACH, through a Messenger and thirdly inspiration... Ibrahim got that terribly wrong.. Saved him and his son from a terrible horrendous human slaughter just coz he was a good person God showed mercy.. Otherwise God never interferes with what human does.
Note.. In Quran, mana or ru'ya.. dream is always meant to be interpreted. Dream never gives direct meaning and it requires special teaching from God to get the meaning of dream.. It always gives other meaning than what it really showed in dream.. So in that sense also Ibrahim got it wrong. Ibrahim saw sacrificing and he attempted sacrificing literally .. Took direct meaning.. Ibrahim could have asked God to clarify instead but he decided on his own where there is no command at all..
I know you have something totally against to what I say but Quran's truth stands above all mean speculations.. Speak with Quran and let's see you speak truth or Quran does.
Thank you.. Ponder with calmness and not to overcome me but to reflect Quran's truth, then I am sure you will know you are wrong here..
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Salaam,
I know you have something totally against to what I say but Quran's truth stands above all mean speculations.. Speak with Quran and let's see you speak truth or Quran does.
Thank you.. Ponder with calmness and not to overcome me but to reflect Quran's truth, then I am sure you will know you are wrong here..
Just consider that's your truth and I have mine.
I know why you're thinking that way, and I don't have to prove anything. I just don't agree the way you thinking and some rules/standard you have setup on your framework. So you have to understand that you cannot bring me to your standard and vice versa.
I'm here just to share my opinion, God is fully aware of who is best guided, not you and not me.
1784 Say "Let each work according to his own. Your Lord is fully aware of who is best guided to the path."
So my suggestion, stop thinking that you're the only center of the truth, and you're the only "Quran". Just share your opinion, I'm fully understand the way you're thinking, and I don't blame you for that.
I just don't like people when they asked for feedback on their opinion and when someone disagree on him, suddenly he become prophet Shuaib talking to non believers.
You have to learn on how to agree to disagree.
Peace
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Salaam,
Just consider that's your truth and I have mine.I know why you're thinking that way, and I don't have to prove anything. I just don't agree the way you thinking and some rules/standard you have setup on your framework. So you have to understand that you cannot bring me to your standard and vice versa.
I'm here just to share my opinion, God is fully aware of who is best guided, not you and not me.
1784 Say "Let each work according to his own. Your Lord is fully aware of who is best guided to the path."
So my suggestion, stop thinking that you're the only center of the truth, and you're the only "Quran". Just share your opinion, I'm fully understand the way you're thinking, and I don't blame you for that.
I just don't like people when they asked for feedback on their opinion and when someone disagree on him, suddenly he become prophet Shuaib talking to non believers.
You have to learn on how to agree to disagree.
Peace
Peace.
It's not I am being the centre of the truth.. It's about your claim on Quran for which there is no tangible evidence..
Your claim that in Musa's story a boy was brutally killed and I am against it within Quran and instead of responding to the subject you writing far from the essence what I said... Just prove the boy was killed and you in black white written that the boy was killed.. Isn't that your duty to say why you take that boy was killed.. Does Quran say or you took it that way?
Further you said that you believe that God TOLD Ibrahim to SACRIFICE his son... These are huge claims in the name of God and His book...
So I am against both of your claims.. Just substantiate yout claims as true...that's all I am asking from you and not stories about me being centre of truth bla bla.. These are preconceived notions about me in your or people's minds that comes out when I speak with Quran that goes against their view.. Well.. You have two massive claims. Just answer to God...
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It was not metaphorical rather literal “so slew him” similar to how whole families including innocent babies get blown up by laser guided missiles, diseases like cancers, famine, natural disasters, etc.
530 فطوعت so prompted له to him نفسه soul (inner self or conscious mind) his قتل slay اخىه brother his فقتله so slew him فاصبح so became من of الخسرىن the losers
530 Faţawwa`at Lahu Nafsuhu Qatla 'Akhīhi Faqatalahu Fa'aşbaĥa Mina Al-Khāsirīna
1874 فانطلقا so precedes dual حتى until اذا when of لقىا met dual غلما boy of (age below maturity) فقتله so slew him قال said اقتلت has slain thou نفسا soul of زكىه pure بغىر in other than نفس soul (consciousness) لقد hath assuredly جىت came thou شىىا thing of نكرا harsh of
1874 Fānţalaqā Ĥattá 'Idhā Laqiyā Ghulāmāan Faqatalahu Qāla 'Aqatalta Nafsāan Zakīyatan Bighayri Nafsin Laqad Ji'ta Shay'āan Nukrāan
1880 واما and as for الغلم the boy فكان so be (are) ابواه parents’ dual his مومنىن who believers two فخشىنا so fear we of ان that ىرهقهما covered (engulfed) them dual طغىنا transgression of وكفرا and rejection of
1880 Wa 'Ammā Al-Ghulāmu Fakāna 'Abawāhu Mu'uminayni Fakhashīnā 'An Yurhiqahumā Ţughyānāan Wa Kufrāan
1881 فاردنا so intends we of ان that ىبدلهما exchanged for them dual ربهما lord them dual خىرا better of منه from him زكوه purer واقرب and nearer رحما affection of
1881 Fa'aradnā 'An Yubdilahumā Rabbuhumā Khayrāan Minhu Zakāatan Wa 'Aqraba Ruĥmāan
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I see its the story of a Man(possibly a vegetarian) who relocated to the dessert, he struggled and faced extreme hardships for survival, his consciousness and thought its God's will to sacrifice his son as the only option, God blessed him with a new way, with a goat surfaced and he sacrificed that.
Its a belief of Goodness ways. Many animals too kill their off-springs for survival.
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Salaam amin,
I see its the story of a Man(possibly a vegetarian) who relocated to the dessert, he struggled and faced extreme hardships for survival, his consciousness and thought its God's will to sacrifice his son as the only option, God blessed him with a new way, with a goat surfaced and he sacrificed that.
Its a belief of Goodness ways. Many animals too kill their off-springs for survival.
never heard such story before. But I do believe, we are forbidden to kill other people except for the reasons explained in the book.
The stories in the Quran are told so that we can take lessons. However, we must be flexible enough to understand the context.
In the case of the murder of a child in the story of the prophet Musa, Prophet Musa reacted exactly according to God's law that he understood, that killing is permissible only to avenge another soul.
But the Quran certainly has deviations for very good reasons. for example,
- When Ibrahim lied about who broke the idols of his people (he lied for good reason)
- When Ibrahim cut four birds into pieces just to satisfy his curiosity how Allah brings the dead back to life, (the birds were not really dead)
- When the fire grew cold when it burned Ibrahim. This is "against God's law" regarding the nature of fire
- When Musa walked in the middle of the sea, so he and his people were safe but not with Pharaoh and his army. This "violates God's law" regarding the nature of water
- and various other examples
does this make God inconsistent with his laws?
Of course not, because these all have good reasons. We can't dictate to God what he can and can't do. Don't be god to God ;D
Even though Prophet Ibrahim was ordered to kill his son, his son did not really die
The child who was killed in the case of Musa, did not violate God's law, because God knew that he would coerce and suppress his parents, a reason where we are allowed to fight and kill.
That is why I wrote earlier about the importance of prioritizing God's revelation over our conscience.
Today very often Quran verses are translated according to human ethical standards.
For example,
Human ethics dictates that a man may not beat a woman, so the Quran must comply with this rule.I think it's fine, as long as there is no tendency to feel embarrassed seeing that the Quran does not comply with man-made ethical standards.
Peace..
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peace all,
amin,
We can all have different views, that is fine, but my article specifically has questions people can run their understanding through. Unfortunately very few people do and simply continue on their merry way.
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html
For example you can see this post for what happened when jkhan attempted to answer those Qs.tlihawa,
The Abraham four birds story has been discussed on here before, e.g. here. as well as Moses water split story (tsunami, wind set down). Each can have "natural laws" explanations.Background
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15458.0
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604966.msg320062#msg320062
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597934.msg194774#msg194774 -
Salaam Wakas,
peace all,
amin,
We can all have different views, that is fine, but my article specifically has questions people can run their understanding through. Unfortunately very few people do and simply continue on their merry way.
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Abraham-Sacrifice-Questions.html
For example you can see this post for what happened when jkhan attempted to answer those Qs.tlihawa,
The Abraham four birds story has been discussed on here before, e.g. here. as well as Moses water split story (tsunami, wind set down). Each can have "natural laws" explanations.Background
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15458.0
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604966.msg320062#msg320062
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597934.msg194774#msg194774Thanks for the links given. Perhaps the last one was misquoted?
But it's okay. I have been here for years and I've seen various opinions about this "law of nature".
And as you can see for yourself in the thread you provided, your view of 2260 has been rebutted by several people. This is not because of you or them have bad logic, but because everyone has their own scenario or context in their heads.
Just as you construct a number of questions about Ibrahim and his son with the intention of helping others draw conclusions, but basically the questions you ask cannot be separated from the context that you have built and believed in before. And it can be irrelevant to other with different context and different way of thinking.
Everyone has their own context that is built in their head which greatly influences how they translate a verse.
If you believe that Allah will not make deviations in His laws even with good reasons, then you will try to explain all the "miracles" into "natural law", and all the "evil command by God" to something else.. And I think there's a lot of homework needs to be done (ie. Creation of Adam, Musa's white hand, creation of Isa, etc)
That is why, we cannot expect that the same methodology will produce the same conclusion.
When you have built a certain context in your head, all related verses will certainly be translated to support that context.
In addressing differences of opinion, I prefer to find out the context in which a person bases himself, to see why he comes to that conclusion, and to understand why it's different with mine. And I don't immediately judge that his logic is bad, we just differ in the context we use. Logic only works to support that context.
Don't be disappointed if people disagree with you, we just differ in understanding the context that underlies our way of thinking. This is not a right or wrong area, this is just an agree or disagree area.
Btw, I saw the progress of studyquran.co.uk stuck at 93%? What's going on? Really admire your works. It helps me a lot. Thank you.
Peace
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peace tlihawa,
I appreciate the way you framed your response.
No, that last link was correct, it cites 2260 in it, and the use of logic / critical thinking in general.
Yes people attempted rebuttal of my interpretation of 2260. Pay careful attention to how many actually answered the questions I asked. Similar to this thread.
And lastly I do not deny "miracles". All I am pointing out is there may be a "natural law" explanation for some (all?).
Project Root List is effectively complete but the grammar info could have more detail here and there and the grammar info has not been fully checked over. Originally we were waiting on the developer Kais of corpus.quran.com to update their site but he has left the project for other pursuits. Eric Atwell of the University of Leeds said they would update the project but it hasn't happened yet. If you use it regular I recommend downloading PRL as you never know when it may become unavailable.
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Salam!
There is another question. Ibrahim was going to take life of his son and it is called "Sacrifice" while his son gave "his own life" - what it should be called? Is taking life of others is "Sacrifice" or giving one's own life to others is "Sacrifice"?
Peace!
