Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son? - Eid Al Adha

Wakas

peace jkhan,

Re

what Ibrahim saw was a dream and not a command.. Will ever Allah command anything to any messenger through Dream.....
....so Ismail said, “Do what you are COMMANDED” Is it really a command from God for Ibrahim to practice? No.. Unless any such command was given to Ibrahim through dream previously. 4251 denies anyhow.. ...

we have very few examples of dreams of messengers in Quran thus unable to claim with certainty God never commands through dream.
there does not need to be a prior command via dream for this to be accepted as one.
his son clearly interpreted it as a command (or something Abraham is expected to do) and so did Abraham, thus I would rather take their view on it than claim they made a mistake and we know better.
4251 doesn't exclude anything. It would only exclude it if it was explicitly stated dreams do not fall within these categories.

Re

How do you decide that He brought Ismail to Abrahm’s forehead? Does Arabic verse give you a clear cut meaning to accept that Abraham’s head.. why can’t it be Ismail’s head…

Both before and after this part, the one spoken of is Abraham. To suggest otherwise will be inserting a break in addressee without any reason.

Re

Why God through a Messenger (coz WE is used) should call “O Ibrahim” when actually Ibrahim took Ismail to his forehead… God could have called Ibrahim once Ismail actually leaving him if you take the meaning in that way.. God called Ibrahim at the right time to avoid and save from a great disaster

It doesn't say when he was called but I have no issue if it was during or immediately after this goodbye embrace. If we take your view, one could argue why not call to him as Abraham raised the knife/sword etc (i.e. last minute). The fact that you consider it your "most significant part" indicates your objections to my position is weak.

I considered your other points poor/irrelevant, hence no reply. If you think they are, perhaps you can articulate them better, keeping it concise.

Also, you consistently kept referring to the "sacrifice son" as Ishmael. There is no Quranic evidence of this.

jkhan

Dear Brother Waqas,
Thank you for taking your valuable time to respond my concerns..
Btw your article is interesting but honestly not convincing coz it doesn’t convince me, I have no idea about others..but many of your articles have convinced me and I verified it with quran..

we have very few examples of dreams of messengers in Quran thus unable to claim with certainty God never commands through dream. ~~~..yeah.. that’s the truth.. then why you claim so that it was a command? God says wait till my command comes… messengers have waited though the followers were in a hurry..how do you judge on what God has not taught you ? Has God taught you to take the dream/s as command or is it in quran? That will put any one in great confusion … confusion is not command, but commands are clear .. only three ways 4251
there does not need to be a prior command via dream for this to be accepted as one. ~~~ who gave you this authority? I am serious.. how you conclude it? Give Quranic proof to go in line as you always write in articles..
his son clearly interpreted it as a command (or something Abraham is expected to do) and so did Abraham, thus I would rather take their view on it than claim they made a mistake and we know better.~~~ His son didn’t know anything.. do you agree.. Everything was Abraham’s mere decision.. That’s’ why His son said “Do what you are commanded…” No command to his son or no information and totally nothing…And no evidence of proof sending a Messenger .. no confirmation.. merely Abraham’s dream for which Abraham was asking sort of PERMISION from his son.. wasn’t he? “so look what you see” this is what Abraham said.. so needs his son’s permission.. in case His son refused then Allah’s command is nullified.. How can a messenger nullify a command from God just coz his son doesn’t agree?
See the end… God only said to Abrahm “ You believed the dream” no reward nothing to his son… who is more sacrificing person here Abraham or His son.. be it isolating him or sacrificing… His son is key and not Abrahim.. without his son acknowledgement nothing would happen out there..
4251 doesn't exclude anything. It would only exclude it if it was explicitly stated dreams do not fall within these categories. ~~~ Yes.. that’s what I emphasize… no believer can take anything as command unless God has spoken to someone in any of the medium which 4251 refers..no need any explicit explanation from God while He crystal clearly said in 4251.. So.. God won’t talk to any human being including Ibrahim other than those three medium… Dreams are not God’s command and any orders that we have to take into our life… you can only go for interpretation of dreams with someone who is authorized..

Further what you mean other irrelevant points?... may be you referring the word Azeem..

You have no clue in your article about “He was ransomed / exchanged with / of mighty / great sacrifice…no connection to your story by this verse..

Dear it is of course physical sacrifice God referred… No other meaning you can get it.. dhāl bā ḥā (ذ ب ح) (entire quran either slaughter / sacrifice) so stick with it.. don't deviate.. Just look at the verse 5646 where Azeem appears.. does that mean Mighty / Great Sin in a positive sense… no way.. that is something of unpleasant, evil oriented Azeem…Same way God absolutely delivered Abraham’s Son form a Azeem (Great) grievous Sacrifice.. That’s perfect.. claiming separation is fine from your end, but you can’t end with the verse 37107 – He was ransomed of a Horrible Sacrifice.. read the verse 5646 or similar to get a clear picture what the Azeem + sacrifice may mean…

Finally you stated that I was kept using Ismail..yeah sorry.. but your article started saying about Eid Al Adha and conventional and majority of muslims practices… so what they practice is connected with Abraham and Ismail..You can’t be referring any other while you are talking about them…. Anyhow lets stick with quran… hope any of the son of Abrahm..

Folks.. anyway.. it is not a big deal like the creation of heavens and earth and distorting them... Ibrahim knows what actually he did so did his son.. it won't harm our belief... so let people raise opinions... but i love sticking with quran's immaculate meaning.. coz it is only one meaning intended by God.. Not me and Waqas be right... only one God intended meaning ... lets approach for it...
handshake

Sorry... in addition to that the complete chapter 37 is talking about delivering messengers and people from Great disasters... and ibrahim ans ismail is no exception... pls members who have not read the chapter fully, read when you have time...

Wakas

peace jkhan,

Re 2)
It's simple. If we take your position, then every single event in Quran that occurs once cannot be accepted (because it doesn't have a prior example), e.g. God speaking with Moses, angels submitting to adam etc etc etc etc the list is endless. If you think this line of reasoning has merit, each to their own.

Re 4)
I dont think you understand 4251. All you need to ask yourself is are dreams explicitly excluded in 4251. Answer is obviously no. It could easily fall under wahy or from behind a barrier.
You say "you can only go for interpretation of dreams with someone who is authorized.." Exactly, see 126. Messengers/prophets are in unique situation, having unique access to the divine. I guess for you its just another coincidence that Abraham/Isaac are mentioned in 126 in the context of Joseph's dream and the ability to interpret narratives.

You said "You have no clue in your article about “He was ransomed / exchanged with / of mighty / great sacrifice…no connection to your story by this verse.."
I recommend re-reading the article, quote "In the Abraham leaving scenario the "great/mighty sacrifice" would refer to the great sacrifice Abraham made by leaving his beloved son, making it a self-contained explanation."

It's interesting how you say "no clue" when your interpretation involves a madeup ram/goat inserted into the context and no-one knows why it's mighty/great/azeem. Even by your own argument this ram would have to be "evil-oriented" / "unpleasant" in some way. Whoops. I leave these problems in your view for you to resolve.

At the end of the day, for me it's real simple I look at the options and determine which one is the most sound / least problematic, then go with that option. Each to their own.

Wakas

And We ransomed/exchanged him (son or Abraham?) with/for a mighty/great sacrifice.

I forgot to say, upon re-examining 37107 it seems the pronoun "hu" could refer to either Abraham or his son. It's traditionally taken to refer to his son, but the flow/context suggests Abraham.

Either way it works for my view, however for the ram sacrifice exchange story, it only works if it refers to his son.

jkhan

Dear waqas... Peace...
Foremost we have to keep in mind that this was a real story and it happened in the life of Ibrahim and his son.. The story God explained to us inserting in Quran.. And quran is meant for guidance.. You can give one story and I can give another but only one thing happened... Are you without slight doubt ensure to everyone that what is written is right in your view point.. Then you are responsible for it.. But in my case I am only refuting what you have written based on my understanding of Quran.. I may be wrong and be right..
This is one of the bad aspect when it comes to grasp quran in its pure meaning.. This is where sometimes I feel may be God used the word ulama (learned ones) pointing at the isreal community.. Saying that they would have known quran ... So to know QURAN guidance plus being literate throughly in the subject is kind of criteria..
So sites like this can be utilized to it's maximum.. Coz most of the people here are literate and most of them have studied quran and explored... So even a expert person make a mistake another may able to point his her error... But unfortunately I don't see a concerted effort by a majority in this forum to nullify a wrong point or accept a right thing... That should be here.. If we are real believers.. Coz this site shouldn't serve for confusion.. Finally after every debate either this or that should be the right thing... And chapter close.. If no one knows.. Let it be...
Certain important topics argued and gone nowhere and in great confusion for any minow or someone who lacks vast knowledge in Quran... He or she will end up clueless..
Is quran so ambiguous so we all have different conviction on almost all points being still quran based believers.. .. Or else we have to self satisfied saying God only knows... Or are we adamant and eccentric to claim I am right you are wrong... Or else there is no value in this forum coz in the what would person take as a right thing... Or such forums are useless and better be reading Quran and beg from God for guidance.. And be satisfied with what He guided.. So no one is giving wrong info to any other believer... But God encourage to argue and spread truth... I honestly feel in this forum there should be a concerted meaning with majority after comprehensive discourses... For that everyone who read the forum better participate..

I hope everyone get my concern in right n positive way...
For example I remember we argued meat of swine... What actually QURAN explained.. The reader of this forum after few years, what he should take and leave.. It is his own decision.. Or let him go dissapointed without knowing what is right.
Coz there cannot be two sides among believers with one QURAN.. Otherwise I am afraid as of everything among QURAN believers there will be thousands of sect in future... Why we can't get together to give one meaning to this Quran... Coz definitely meant one meaning... It is not ambiguous...

Yes.. It's free minds web... So let everyone make their view... Will there be guidance in this way... God's knows best...

Mazhar

Foremost we have to keep in mind that this was a real story and it happened in the life of Ibrahim and his son.. The story God explained to us inserting in Quran.. And quran is meant for guidance.. You can give one story and I can give another but only one thing happened.

Ayah 100-113 is a Narrative. Narrative is a Factual Recount. Narrative texts have to do with real-world events and time. The purposes of narrative may be to inform, to persuade and/or to correct the record, rectify the falsities gleaned by people from the Epistemology of Testimony. The main structural components of a narrative are the orientation, the complication and the resolution, and may include a concluding statement or comment in order to sum up the message.

Narrative writing uses time as its deep structure. Language features of narrative text are

Adverb of time.

Past Tense is used except in conversations.

Time conjunction (when, then, thereat, suddenly, etc)

Specific character. The character of the episode is specific, not general.

Action verbs. A verb that shows an action.

Direct speech. It is to make the episode lively.

The vocabulary is usually everyday language, depending on the subject matter.

When we keep such basic academic points, we can watch the event in the text.

The problem is generally people are not interested in reading and interpreting Qur'an by following basic academic rules.

Wakas

peace Mazhar,

The problem is generally people are not interested in reading and interpreting Qur'an by following basic academic rules.

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Not sure if you are referring to my view but please state your strongest objection to the article, and please keep it clear, concise and evidenced, thanks.

Mazhar

peace Mazhar,

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Not sure if you are referring to my view but please state your strongest objection to the article, and please keep it clear, concise and evidenced, thanks.

Please see "generally".

By the way what precisely is your view on Ayah 100-113, a synopsis pl.

Wakas

By the way what precisely is your view on Ayah 100-113, a synopsis pl.

In my article I helpfully provide a short summary
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Quote
The Quranic evidence suggests that God tested Abraham with a dream in which he saw himself literally sacrificing his son. However both Abraham and his son correctly understood its meaning/significance, and when Abraham confirmed the vision by leaving his son he/they was rewarded.

jkhan

In my article I helpfully provide a short summary
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Quote
The Quranic evidence suggests that God tested Abraham with a dream in which he saw himself literally sacrificing his son. However both Abraham and his son correctly understood its meaning/significance, and when Abraham confirmed the vision by leaving his son he/they was rewarded.

What is it so strong to support your claim while requesting to bring strong proof to negate… I am one of those who negate since your claim is below par… let everyone know humbly what is the strongest evidence in your entire claim that is incontrovertibly truthful….when negated you better bring the strongest to still go in line with you thought… I don’t perceive anything.. I am not against you personally Mr. Waqas… I am someone who takes the truth regardless of who presents it… You have tried out at the expense of ironing out the appalling image Prophet Ibrahim represent by accepting he almost slaughtered his own son… But that was the case… May be personally for you it doesn’t digest that something of that nature do exist in quran… But Ibrahim had a different character.. one of the rarest of those… that’s why I consider in my liking as the best… another example is demolishing all statues of gods… that’s too much… that’s his character…

At least observe some of the stories presented in the same chapter with such identical phrases.. “” Thus (We) reward the Good-doers “” ~~~~~ “ We left for him among later generations”” ~~~~~

These are regular typical phrases used in this chapter not only for Ibrahim’s story… and in my understanding I see the stories are Ddelivering the messengers + the people from some Great Disasters (either from God’s side or peoples’ or even self – all three involved)… after saving from such disaster God uses the above phrases here and there…very fair comments above are… Aren’t they?

Even .. in the same stories Ibrahim has got two stories apart from the topic.. that is Ibrahim being put in fire and he was delivered / saved from that great disaster… Your story doesn’t tally with the flow of Quranic intent.. Is it?

I advise you Mr. Waqas… leave every positive thoughts and go back to zero and read the chapter again.. and let us know…. And if still you are satisfied…. Then you must have that strongest evidence you yourself found… up to you…. Remember your view or our view should never misguide anyone directly or indirectly… pls explore more for the sake of truth…. May be your further research may convince every one of us or you may turn to otherwise… Believers won’t feel shy to accept the truth even the one they argued previously against / for it… Honestly with all evidences in the very chapter 037,, I don’t see any other than slaughter… It may be the understanding of conventional Muslims, but that’s harmless… No slaughtering of animal is at all involved in the verses as conventional claim..…. thank you for reading…
Don't Rush .... take your time... i know you are an asset to this forum... you have depth knowledge...

Peace...let truth overcome and May God guide us with quran's immaculate / unblemished meaning...

Mazhar

In my article I helpfully provide a short summary
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-Abraham-sacrifice-son.html

Quote
The Quranic evidence suggests that God tested Abraham with a dream in which he saw himself literally sacrificing his son. However both Abraham and his son correctly understood its meaning/significance, and when Abraham confirmed the vision by leaving his son he/they was rewarded.

I had read it in the link. I wanted you give a second thought and rephrase it since this conclusion suffers ambiguity. It shows as if the person was being tested in his ability about interpretation of dreams.

Wakas

peace jkhan,

If you prefer, we can have a separate thread (linked to from this thread) to pit my understanding Vs yours (which I assume is the common understanding), and we can raise, lets say, 10 points/questions each for the other to respond to, then at the end we can summarise our debate. It's possible readers may find this helpful.
As a side note, I do find your posts verbose, so it would be nice to have concise points/questions in such a debate.

peace Mazhar,
If that is your interpretation of what I wrote, each to their own. Clearly in my short summary, I not only mention they understood the correct meaning/significance of the dream but Abraham also followed through in action, thus it is not all about having the correct interpretation.
Again, I ask, if you have some clear/strong/evidenced objection to anything in the article please bring forth your strongest example so I/we can weigh it up.

Mazhar

peace jkhan,

If you prefer, we can have a separate thread (linked to from this thread) to pit my understanding Vs yours (which I assume is the common understanding), and we can raise, lets say, 10 points/questions each for the other to respond to, then at the end we can summarise our debate. It's possible readers may find this helpful.
As a side note, I do find your posts verbose, so it would be nice to have concise points/questions in such a debate.

peace Mazhar,
If that is your interpretation of what I wrote, each to their own. Clearly in my short summary, I not only mention they understood the correct meaning/significance of the dream but Abraham also followed through in action, thus it is not all about having the correct interpretation.
Again, I ask, if you have some clear/strong/evidenced objection to anything in the article please bring forth your strongest example so I/we can weigh it up.

What they had thought the correct meaning of the dream?
What Abraham followed in action?

What was the sequence of these two? Which one was the first>

jkhan

Brother Waqas ....
I agree to your request... Let truth prevail... One is conventional understanding and others is your interesting new research... If anyone have any other thought let them put to discuss...
Peace

Iyyaka

At least observe some of the stories presented in the same chapter with such identical phrases.. “” Thus (We) reward the Good-doers “” ~~~~~ “ We left for him among later generations”” ~~~~~

These are regular typical phrases used in this chapter not only for Ibrahim’s story… and in my understanding I see the stories are Ddelivering the messengers + the people from some Great Disasters (either from God’s side or peoples’ or even self – all three involved)… after saving from such disaster God uses the above phrases here and there…very fair comments above are… Aren’t they?

Even .. in the same stories Ibrahim has got two stories apart from the topic.. that is Ibrahim being put in fire and he was delivered / saved from that great disaster… Your story doesn’t tally with the flow of Quranic intent.. Is it?

Salam Jkhan,
Good remark.
You will find more informations here https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30 (First and last post)
Peace

jkhan

Salam Jkhan,
Good remark.
You will find more informations here https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610603.30 (First and last post)
Peace

Salam Brother Iyyaka....

I was out of action for last 6 to 7 months with freeminds... so i missed many... I read only very significant topics.. this is important... i will go through.. thank you for sharing ...

Peace Brother Waqas…

You emphasized that word Manam astonished you and it is literal not mandatory interpretation…. While Al Ru’ya need further elaboration… Only two places real Manam (i.e. dream) occurs.. one is pertinent to caption and only other occasion is the dream of Prophet Mohamed 843.. I am afraid you got it erroneous…My simple question is; any of the Quran explained Manam or Ru’ya Literal? All the Ru’ya needed interpretation (that we comply) and no such Ru’ya was a command even the dream of the King of Yousuf saw … Was it a command?.. it was a good sign… No Ru’ya was Literal (simply explaining no one took the dream as in it’s own nature, like Ibrahim took) Got it??..
Now lets turn to Manam… out of two one is Mohamed’s dream… which God says … Allah showed it to Mohamed (all quranic dreams Allah showed… that’s why they were interpreted and it happened)… So these dreams in fact from God.. Question is, was it a command? … Was it LITERAL ? YES or NO… No.. the dream was not a command neither Literal…coz what Mohamed was shown is something and what in the end happened is different … so it can’t be literal… Mohamed didn’t perceive the dream as literal and didn’t take any action to increase the numbers according to dream..…

Why exception to Ibrahim’s dream? Why his dream literal ? since he is the only person who took either manam or Ru’ya as literal….that’s his disastrous decision which in the end Favored and delivered since he was a muhsinun (good doer) and not always God would do such to every good doer…Remember non of the human being is commanded in quran to take any of our dream as literal… we will have no clue what the dreams are all about since we don’t have true interpreters of them… but we may at one point of time may come to know what was the meaning of such and such with the time if it happens..

No COMMANDMENT through dreams be it Manam or Ru’ya… God’s system will not change that’s common to any messenger….

1777 established way (Sunnah) for those We had sent before you of Our Messengers; and you will not find in Our way any alteration.

Wakas

peace jkhan,

In your above post you asked 7 questions (i.e. question mark at end of sentence). I kindly ask you to come up with 10 questions and number them, then present them. Each question should contain one point/issue. As I mentioned before, please try and be clear and concise.

I was thinking if it's simply a matter of each of us listing 10 questions, then we respond, then summarising, I guess we could contain it in this thread. The original reason I suggested a separate thread (albeit linked from this one) was not to clutter this thread. I will work on my 10 questions and present them here shortly, GW.

Mohammed_

salaam all,

37105 “…Indeed like thus We reward the righteous/good-doers.”
I think the reward mentioned here is the call of approval/acknowledgement/appreciation from God (such a call from the creator itself is a great reward that lasts the whole lifetime).

This story reminds us, whatever thing that we have here is not ours -our life, happiness, partner, children, wealth etc. everything is only because of God.
Enjoy life without exceeding the limit. We should never forget what we are. And the creator is able, to give us much higher levels/means of satisfaction/happiness.

“The life of this world is not except the deceit's/temptation's enjoyment” -3185, 828, 632, 314, 477 etc.
Abraham knew this. He was a muslim.

Life is simple & interesting, for those who are certain about their creator.

Wakas

peace jkhan, all,

First set of 5 out of 10 questions

With regard to your understanding (which is similar to the common/traditional understanding)

what relevance, if any, is there for Quran to mention his son reached the age of striving/working with him?
when Abraham asks "...look what you see?" his son seems to automatically assume it is a command when he says "...do what you are commanded...". Do you agree? If not, please say why.
The future particle "sa" occurs over 100 times in Quran. Can you provide one example of usage which matches how you claim it is used here, i.e. what comes after particle "sa" refers to an ongoing future activity that occurs prior to what came before particle "sa"?
Let me clarify, here is structure of the Arabic ABC <future particle sa> XYZ
My view is XYZ occurs in the future, i.e. after ABC
Your view is XYZ occurs prior to ABC or XYZ occurs until ABC takes place.
Ref http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(3710221)
can you provide a classical arabic dictionary reference which states the meaning of the verb TLL can mean what you take it to mean and can be done in a gentle/soft/willing manner? i.e. without force.
Reason the primary meaning of this definition is to throw down / make one prostrate / hold down / wrestle them down etc , i.e. not willingly, but Quran states both submitted so the action was willingly, i.e. no force needed).
Ref http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=tll#(371033)
can you provide some examples elsewhere in Quran in which God rewards us/someone for what they were about to do but did not do.
Reason stating "like thus We reward..." implies an exemplar, if so, where are the other examples, or where such a principle is mentioned.

jkhan

Dear Brother Waqas….

Let me correct you about my personal belief and understanding compared with Conventional Belief…

This is my conventional understanding learned from society verbally and that was accepted in our society as of my knowledge…

But My Quranic Understanding is UTTERLY unique to above other than what is in actual fact written in Quran.. I anticipate you are transparent of my comprehension if you have time to read my threads in this very caption……It’s not similar… though I accept what Ibrahim attempted was to slaughter his son which resembles the conventional acceptance not coz they accept but that’s what I possess with my current knowledge (how many quranic meaning to date we resemble with conventional understanding, that’s harmless)..But there is big day light between my understanding and conventional concocted stories which have no apparent evidence in the verses of Quran…
Pls answer to my questions in my previous threads to answer your 05 set of queries out of 10 meaningfully…God Will! I respond to your questions asap.. Dear other members you are most welcome to give your thoughts and responses to Brother Waqas’s questions and it is not confined between me and Waqas…Pls be with Quran and your most up to date understanding merely… Aim is to clarify and to resort to grasp the ultimate very meaning of the verses…

I need clarification..and not confusion….

~~~~why need ambiguity while quran itself claim it is not ambiguous~~~~