Does Islam accept LGBTQ community as Legitimate?
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Peace jkhan
Please do not turn your opinions into the will of God, if Allah did not say something then it is not for you to say it for him.
Peace S12 !!!
I absolutely agree, if it is an advice… I don’t think it is merely an advice… isn’t it dude? I hope it is something that you have found out in my previous thread which I have changed the will of God and have said what Allah has not said…
Would you kindly point out manifestly what are those?Do you always take quran directly? That’s not the way according to God… Explore..no need to explore if things are open or explicit……
I ask simply dude… Do you have sisters or wife or mother or daughters? Do you ask them to fast? Have Quran ever ordered females to fast if you take quran directly? What is actually stated in quran…2183 tone of quran is male form… Do you agree that females should fast? From where did you get that females are ordered to fast… is it direct way or common sense …
Or else take this example… Have God prohibited (HARRAMA) directly in quran eating other human? Do you prohibit? And how? Dead body is different to living human…. It all from commonsense and exploration… pls use your wits…
While in 415 -16 why God specify female and male.. Coz God knew, if not explained separate for men and women in this case it would be complicated…(unfortunately –**Fahisha **it is translated as simply as immorality in these verses which I extremely against for which four witnesses required..)
Now explain to me by these verses why God give sort of punishment to those who did fahisha men and women separately? What they did? Remember for adultery there is different punishment prescribed in quran..Okay, let me put this way…. For any act, two factors… either ALLOWED or NOT ALLOWED… I am in the group of not allowed for LGBTQ (remember based on Quran’s obvious advice)… You seems in the ALLOWED group.. you said indirectly I have made something NOT ALLOWED, but give your reasons to ALLOW it? Coz you said “I Don’t see any reason why Islam can’t accept LGB..”
Pls be calm and don’t rush… explore and come back to us… give your thoughts…I will never compel to go in line with my view… You have free will and freedom.. choose whatever you like…. -
Peace jk
No if the quran never states that eating human flesh is haram then it isn't, the Quran is not a how to live your life handbook, it is up to you to think for your self and know what is right or wrong, the Quran doesn't have to have a say in every time you do, just like eating shit is not haram but you still don't eat it because you know the effects decided not to but you can't tell someone how decides to eat it that it is haram because the Quran may have implied it, but you tell them your personal reasons for not eating it.
Also when any command is given in the Quran it is in genderless form but for this case it clearly says "you approach men" not you approach the opposite gender or something like that. Plus the Quran never even said to punish them or that it is haram or anything so you can't say what Allah didn't say, uf you think it is not ok then fine but that is your opinion not Allah's and you can't make a rule or try to control people to follow your opinion on what Allah wants, because something bothers you doesn't mean it bothers Allah after all Allah just wants us to worship him
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after all Allah just wants us to worship him
in some parts of the book author want people worship allah..
in some parts Allah is totally free of need...in a bigger picture how do we know what GOD want ?
how do we know if any God even exist or not ?whatever we know about GOD is the result from the records of early people, not from the direct communication of God.
the recent GOD in human form was "OSHO" who gathered lot of followers. if that person happen to exist in past people labelled him in the list of krishna, rama, jesus etc..
also a recent prophet who perform miracles exactly like other prophets was " sathya sai baba " .
THOUGHT has created the idol and then THOUGHT started worshiping that idol what thought has created..generations worshiped blindly what thought has created.(OUR STORY).
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Peace!!
1732 “And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse (zina). Indeed, it is ever an immorality (fahisha) and is Evil as a way.”
Let me further explain, anyone who is in support of LGBQT better respond with logic…
What exactly God command by verse 1732 is NOT to APPROACH (Zina)..what is infact Zinah? Am I right if I elaborate this way “zina is having sex with another person who is not legally ours through marriage… Is that fine…? Hope okay.. better explanation is welcome..
Simple language illegal sexual intercourse as translated above… So who is allowed to marry according to God in quran..crystal clear in quran male for female (various conditions and rules apply)…
So to have sex with another woman for a woman or Man to Man, they first should marry before they touch each other…. Right or wrong?… coz without marriage there is no sex according to orderly way of God, otherwise it will be ZINAH… supported by 2305-06 “And they who guard their private parts, Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed - ..” Other than those will be blamed…then…Who are these people in the end? The real successful believers 2301 and they will inherit the Janna 2310….
With honesty tell me anyone Has Allah allowed this shameful act?
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Islam aims for something and LGTBQ aims for something different.
According to Islam, regardless of being Heterosexual or homosexual or whatever, one should aim to become someone that is not driven by temptations. The tempter in Islam is referred to as Satan. In Buddhism the tempter is referred to as Mara. Both are personifications. In broader philosophies temptations are referred to as...temptations.
The force that dictates the sexual attractions on us is a force that is enforced on all creatures as small as insects. If we are more than that, then perhaps we can free ourselves from it? And only engage in such things willingly, not compulsively, with thoughtfulness.
Now the LGBTQ people, are mostly hedonistic people, their aim in life is to create pleasure and maintain pleasure, to live in happiness. If you're hedonistic it's really not in your own interest to adhere to principles that will limit your pleasure. Example, marrying one person. Why would you do that ? So we're seeing polyamory. Engaging in pleasure-seeking with the opposite sex only, why would you do that ? Bisexuality is a good deal. and it's on the rise too.
So you can see how some principles fit in one worldview and don't fit in another worldview. And those folks are trying to break free from those principles that are enforced by a worldview that doesn't concern them (mostly from western christian heritage).
But at the end of the day, you do you. You believe in your divine nature and understand that you're more than flesh ? you try to follow one path. You don't believe in a divine nature and you have a flesh that naturally wants to seek pleasure and self-fulfillment ? you follow another path, a path that is enforced on you by your own flesh in my opinion.
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Salaam to all
Thanx to all. Now I have a new perspective on this issue. -
Zina comes from the root ZN, what means weightage, press, force. In that sense only 'Rape' comes under the concept of Zina, Quran condemns such forceful acts (rape as well as all suppressive acts on other human beings) as 'fahisha' and advice not to come near it. So zina does not include "sex with mutual consent between partners (zawaj)" Guarding private parts surely means 'guarding from doing rape' that is,'refraining from forcing to sex' anyone who do not have consent for it.
Peace!!
1732 “And do not approach unlawful sexual intercourse (zina). Indeed, it is ever an immorality (fahisha) and is Evil as a way.”
Let me further explain, anyone who is in support of LGBQT better respond with logic…
What exactly God command by verse 1732 is NOT to APPROACH (Zina)..what is infact Zinah? Am I right if I elaborate this way “zina is having sex with another person who is not legally ours through marriage… Is that fine…? Hope okay.. better explanation is welcome..
Simple language illegal sexual intercourse as translated above… So who is allowed to marry according to God in quran..crystal clear in quran male for female (various conditions and rules apply)…
So to have sex with another woman for a woman or Man to Man, they first should marry before they touch each other…. Right or wrong?… coz without marriage there is no sex according to orderly way of God, otherwise it will be ZINAH… supported by 2305-06 “And they who guard their private parts, Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed - ..” Other than those will be blamed…then…Who are these people in the end? The real successful believers 2301 and they will inherit the Janna 2310….
With honesty tell me anyone Has Allah allowed this shameful act?
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Zina comes from the root ZN, what means weightage, press, force. In that sense only 'Rape' comes under the concept of Zina, Quran condemns such forceful acts (rape as well as all suppressive acts on other human beings) as 'fahisha' and advice not to come near it. So zina does not include "sex with mutual consent between partners (zawaj)" Guarding private parts surely means 'guarding from doing rape' that is,'refraining from forcing to sex' anyone who do not have consent for it.
Salam Soito...
Interesting your view...
I understand you as under. ..
Zina = Doing Rape. (rape is always by force)
Guarding private parts = Not Doing rape..
Then, does it cover everything dear? Or everything comes under fahisha...
Sex is of various nature.... Give you few examples..Sex for business (💰... That's with consent...so approaching... So not zina.. So then what?
Sex for fun, that's with consent.... So not zina... Then what?
Sex on instant attractions... With consent... Not zina... Then what?
Sex under compulsion... Take story Yousuf was seduced... God saved him... Suppose.. Did he caught up with her seduction then Yousuf also culprit... Though he was not the one initiated... Is it rape? I mean zina...? One interested... One not but seduced and commited ultimately .. If not zina then what?
What you call for above act in Arabic? And are they allowed? Since not included under zina or private part guard...
Are you sure about what you say?
Coz honestly I never look dictionaries of Arabic to grasp quran... I read Quran in Arabic meticulously and look all translations possible... If Iam not happy with any of the translation which doesn't give a Quranic flow meaning then I reject and search my own meaning with loads of comparisons.. .. Coz I don't have the dictionary which Mohamed used or people of Mohamed used... If dictionary came late then I don't depend.. If right I accept... That's fine...
I myself found out that all translations for 'Ummi' were wrong.. But I deduced that Mohamed was literate with all ummi verses... Then later I knew articles written by many same as my understanding .. So I was happy... Had I depended on translation or dictionary ummi would have been still Illiterate for me..
By this I don't ask you not to refer... I told my way... So pls double check whether your dictionary reference of zina tally with Quran.. Pls with kindness translate all zina verses in your way... Let me see whether has meaning... -
In Persian زن means woman, in that sense زنا means womanize in Persian. That Persian meanings unfortunately entered into meaning of Arabic Quran.
Salam Soito...
Interesting your view...
I understand you as under. ..Salam Soito...
Interesting your view...
I understand you as under. ..
Zina = Doing Rape. (rape is always by force)
Guarding private parts = Not Doing rape..
Then, does it cover everything dear? Or everything comes under fahisha...
Sex is of various nature.... Give you few examples..Sex for business (💰... That's with consent...so approaching... So not zina.. So then what?
Sex for fun, that's with consent.... So not zina... Then what?
Sex on instant attractions... With consent... Not zina... Then what?
Sex under compulsion... Take story Yousuf was seduced... God saved him... Suppose.. Did he caught up with her seduction then Yousuf also culprit... Though he was not the one initiated... Is it rape? I mean zina...? One interested... One not but seduced and commited ultimately .. If not zina then what?
What you call for above act in Arabic? And are they allowed? Since not included under zina or private part guard...
Are you sure about what you say?
Coz honestly I never look dictionaries of Arabic to grasp quran... I read Quran in Arabic meticulously and look all translations possible... If Iam not happy with any of the translation which doesn't give a Quranic flow meaning then I reject and search my own meaning with loads of comparisons.. .. Coz I don't have the dictionary which Mohamed used or people of Mohamed used... If dictionary came late then I don't depend.. If right I accept... That's fine...
I myself found out that all translations for 'Ummi' were wrong.. But I deduced that Mohamed was literate with all ummi verses... Then later I knew articles written by many same as my understanding .. So I was happy... Had I depended on translation or dictionary ummi would have been still Illiterate for me..
By this I don't ask you not to refer... I told my way... So pls double check whether your dictionary reference of zina tally with Quran.. Pls with kindness translate all zina verses in your way... Let me see whether has meaning... -
AS all,
Newbie here. I see nowadays how many Muslims who identify as homosexuals are pushing an agenda that it's okay to be both and claim it's not a sin. There are some gay imaams that are conducting marriage ceremonies between gay and lesbian Muslims in order to 'legitimise' their relationships o
Instead of going through the Quran trying to find evidence that it's okay to be gay as long as it's not 'forced' like Lot's people, why not look at what defines a legitimate relationship according to the Quran.
- We know that sex outside marriage is not permitted so that marriage is the only option.
- Marriage is defined by the Quran as being a between a man and a woman.
- Therefore any physical relationship outside of marriage is prohibited.
So given the above why is there all this discussion about trying to condone homosexuality as a legitimate relationship. If Islam doesn't allow it, then we should accept it.
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Salaam all.
Does Islam accept LGBTQ community as Legitimate? If "No" why? and if "Yes" then what is their marriage and inheritance rights? Any answer from the Quran?
Thanx. N wasalaam.Salam,
There is not inconsistency in God’s creation (673)
Scientific investigation suggests that homosexuality is not a deliberated option, neither a disease. Actually, it is perfectly normal in God's creation for several purposes and reasons (example https//www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090616122106.htm )
Therefore homosexuality can not be unnatural. It is a fact in nature, and the question whether is it natural or not is just the wrong question.
“In modern times, with science in high regard, some people use a variety of biological and evolutionary concepts to "prove" the unnaturalness (and, by implication, the invalidity) of homosexuality. The ultimate source of these arguments is social tradition and "religious precepts" (Weinrich,1982) rather than observable data. In truth, homosexuality occurs naturally and can be explained through evolutionary principles” (Homosexuality A paradox of evolution, Preston Hunter, 1994).
The popular opinion that homosexuality is a “mistake” in nature can be easily proved wrong by evolution theory itself
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People say that homosexuality goes against evolution. If it were like this, there were not homosexual individuals anymore and of course, we would not see it in nature. They would have been left behind through evolution. Thus it is not against “natural order” as it is in fact part if the “natural order”. For the same reason, heterosexual people not being able to have children should be condemned for that and never get married or have sexual relations.
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Homosexuality prevents reproduction. It doesn't. Homosexual individuals can perfectly procreate and their homosexual condition does not impede others to procreate. Some diseases like chlamydia, as an example, are more dangerous than homosexual individuals in human society in that sense.
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It is not a disease neither contagious.
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there are some physical and biological differences between homosexual and heterosexual individuals such as hypothalamus and endorphins. Thus homosexuality is not a choice. In fact, some studies with twins demonstrate that two twins grown up in different environments and families are likely to share sexual orientation than genetically unrelated siblings raised together.
Therefore, the status of homosexuality in nature is proven as simple as a fact. Nature does not ask herself whether homosexuality is “allowed” or not, it just happens. it’s natural.
People against homosexuality try to appoint verses regarding Lut’s people. There is no verse in Quran prohibiting explicitly homosexuality. Not even one.
7.80 And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you?
Therefore this verse can not talk about homosexuality, because Lut’s people did not invent homosexuality, neither they make it for the first time in history. It is not exclusive to humankind.
homosexuality is not explicitly forbidden in Quran and condemning or oppressing people just for being who they are while God has not explicitly forbidden something is unjust, un muslim. Furthermore, we would be accepting inconsistencies in the Creation. we can’t, as muslims, tell people they can't believe in God or that they are not muslims while they believe just because we accept or not their nature. God will say, not us. Muslims and oppressors are antonyms. God doesn't accept oppression or injustice.
God knows best.
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peace Bikrun,
You provided no links to any studies.
The current general consensus among scientists (based on the evidence) is that sexuality is determined by both nature and nurture. (e.g. largest study thus far on the genetic basis of sexuality].
The largest study1 to date on the genetic basis of sexuality has revealed five spots on the human genome that are linked to same-sex sexual behaviour — but none of the markers are reliable enough to predict someone’s sexuality.
The findings, which are published on 29 August in Science and based on the genomes of nearly 500,000 people, shore up the results of earlier, smaller studies and confirm the suspicions of many scientists while sexual preferences have a genetic component, no single gene has a large effect on sexual behaviours.
“There is no ‘gay gene’,” says lead study author Andrea Ganna, a geneticist at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard in Cambridge, Massachusetts.
Ganna and his colleagues also used the analysis to estimate that up to 25% of sexual behaviour can be explained by genetics, with the rest influenced by environmental and cultural factors — a figure similar to the findings of smaller studies.
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peace Bikrun,
You provided no links to any studies.
Peace, Wakas,
I apologize, you are right.
I should have added it for more evidence.https//psycnet.apa.org/record/1991-98036-002
Straight science? Homosexuality, evolution and adaptation, J McKnight - 2003
https//books.google.es/books?hl=es&lr=&id=KXM3F59y1jkC&oi=fnd&pg=PP16&dq=homosexuality+in+animals&ots=WI_IXoesUS&sig=kPPI6xyU_Nm5reTc9AF-E-8gSo0#v=onepage&q=homosexuality%20in%20animals&f=false
https//psycnet.apa.org/record/1991-98036-002 Straight science? Homosexuality, evolution and adaptation, J McKnight - 2003 https//books.google.es/books?hl=es&lr=&id=KXM3F59y1jkC&oi=fnd&pg=PP16&dq=homosexuality+in+animals&ots=WI_IXoesUS&sig=kPPI6xyU_Nm5reTc9AF-E-8gSo0#v=onepage&q=homosexuality%20in%20animals&f=false
Bailey JM, Dunne MP, Martin NG (March 2000). "Genetic and environmental influences on sexual orientation and its correlates in an Australian twin sample". J Pers Soc Psychol. 78 (3) 524–36. CiteSeerX 10.1.1.519.4486. doi10.1037/0022-3514.78.3.524. PMID 10743878.
Whitam FL; et al. (1993). "Homosexual orientation in twins a report on 61 pairs and three triplet sets". Arch. Sex. Behav. 22 (3) 187–206. doi10.1007/bf01541765. PMID 8494487.
I could add more.
peace Bikrun,
The current general consensus among scientists (based on the evidence) is that sexuality is determined by both nature and nurture. (e.g. largest study thus far on the genetic basis of sexuality].
In that case, there should be no homosexual individuals in any country where it is not allowed and penalized with death or any other penalty. You can't cure people of avoid them to be homosexual. History is full of examples.
the article you provide does not make a conclusion. On the opposite, it says more data are required and "it's a complicated matter". It just has a very catchy title. It talks about one study, this one https//science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6456/eaat7693.editor-summary which suggests that homosexuality might not be genetic but polygenic. It is not that simple.There is not any general consensus on how it is determined, they just cant conclude because there is not enough data and it is quite complicated.
God knows best
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Peace Sister Bikrum....
Seems like you strongly accept homosexuality.... Simply coz you claim God has not prohibited or made Haram... But you failed to get Quran in its way... Sorry to say...
First of all, you have no debate here. You brought your opinions and some science and your enthusiasm to support your view. It's already ongoing debate so you could have pointed out what is debated is wrong according to Quran. Rather than bringing your opinions... Coz author of this topic not asking our own opinion but Quranic explanation. ...so better go in line with it.. Since I also part of this debate, can you nagate my Quranic evidences and confirm your view in support of claiming it is allowed... That's better way of argument......".it just happens, it's natural "
That's your strongest comment...
I agree with your statement... But not only for homosexuality but for all what human mind tempt to do... All natural.. Aren't they...
For example human tempt to steal... So let him.. Human has temptation on everything... But we can't do everything which entice our heart... God has given knowledge... Using it we have to develop SELF- CONTROL ....instead of controlling our self we can't keep doing them... Like in court one would say he made me angry so I cut his toung... So natural anger... Right... So the one who cut the toung is innocent... Simply nonsensical your line of thought ....Let me put this way dear Sister... Let's hope you reason it... . . Or any LGBT respond pls...
Having sex with another female being a female is harmless and absolutely fine and no restrictions in Quran as per you.. It's so natural it happens. .that's what you say....
then suppose I have an office mate who is attracted to me... It's so natural.. Right... So I can go to the extreme with her.. But I won't marry her... It's natural it happens... Yes or No.... It happens in every society....
Now tell me.... If your lesbian sex is allowed and why not sex with a woman we like is not allowed even after she offers....question is.....
Bring me a verse ONLY prohibited my choice while allowing your choice....
Remember both natural....don't tell me both allowed....Further just look at verse 422-24,,,,,
It gives a long list.... Just check whether God put same gender there...HE didn't... Did HE?. Just coz God didn't use a single same gender, does it mean God allowed it?... For example God says not allowed your sisters for marrige, but God didn't say brothers... Does it mean brother allowed for another brother ? This is a good point for homosexuality....(coz 424 listed and beyond that list allowed...Wow.. Homosexuality allowed... Disgusting) If you are disbeliever then I don't mind but being a believer how come the manifest verses gone upside down for you.... God address Men and given the list so women should guess what is their list with everyone opposite to the list... If LGBT is anywhere near to be allowed, then in 422-24 God would have stated not allowed for you in marriage sisters + brothers...etc etc etc... OMG I am fed up on this topic...
What's wrong with you people... Where is your logic? -
Peace Sister Bikrum....
Seems like you strongly accept homosexuality.... Simply coz you claim God has not prohibited or made Haram... But you failed to get Quran in its way... Sorry to say...
First of all, you have no debate here. You brought your opinions and some science and your enthusiasm to support your view. It's already ongoing debate so you could have pointed out what is debated is wrong according to Quran. Rather than bringing your opinions... Coz author of this topic not asking our own opinion but Quranic explanation. ...so better go in line with it.. Since I also part of this debate, can you nagate my Quranic evidences and confirm your view in support of claiming it is allowed... That's better way of argument......".it just happens, it's natural "
That's your strongest comment...
I agree with your statement... But not only for homosexuality but for all what human mind tempt to do... All natural.. Aren't they...
For example, human tempt to steal... So let him.. Human has temptation on everything... But we can't do everything which entice our heart... God has given knowledge... Using it we have to develop SELF- CONTROL ....instead of controlling our self we can't keep doing them... Like in court one would say he made me angry so I cut his toung... So natural anger... Right... So the one who cut the toung is innocent... Simply nonsensical your line of thought ....Let me put this way dear Sister... Let's hope you reason it... . . Or any LGBT respond pls...
Having sex with another female being a female is harmless and absolutely fine and no restrictions in Quran as per you.. It's so natural it happens. .that's what you say....
then suppose I have an office mate who is attracted to me... It's so natural.. Right... So I can go to the extreme with her.. But I won't marry her... It's natural it happens... Yes or No.... It happens in every society....
Now tell me.... If your lesbian sex is allowed and why not sex with a woman we like is not allowed even after she offers....question is.....
Bring me a verse ONLY prohibited my choice while allowing your choice....
Remember both natural....don't tell me both allowed....Further just look at verse 422-24,,,,,
It gives a long list.... Just check whether God put same gender there...HE didn't... Did HE?. Just coz God didn't use a single same gender, does it mean God allowed it?... For example God says not allowed your sisters for marrige, but God didn't say brothers... Does it mean brother allowed for another brother ? This is a good point for homosexuality....(coz 424 listed and beyond that list allowed...Wow.. Homosexuality allowed... Disgusting) If you are disbeliever then I don't mind but being a believer how come the manifest verses gone upside down for you.... God address Men and given the list so women should guess what is their list with everyone opposite to the list... If LGBT is anywhere near to be allowed, then in 422-24 God would have stated not allowed for you in marriage sisters + brothers...etc etc etc... OMG I am fed up on this topic...
What's wrong with you people... Where is your logic?Salam
I won’t get into the point that you get my arguments as an insult or something and keep on writing such a “your homosexuality” like you feel personally attacked. I really dont understand your reaction, brother, I am sorry.
I was just telling homosexuality is not a choice and I don't know why you bring the argument of adultery to compare it with homosexuality, they have nothing to do one with the other. Adultery is a choice, being homosexual, as it seems from scientific literature, is not.
Also I did not say I accept or not homosexuality, I did not bring my opinion on it. I said that homosexuality is a fact so it is pointless if we accept it or not. It is not punished in Quran, therefore I am not the one who will accuse anyone just because they are born differently.
All the things you say I said just dont apply. I said it is not explicit in Quran, thus the Lord left it to human law, not explicitly forbidding it by divine law.
What people do under their blankets and how or with whom they fullfil their hearts is not my matter. It is something between God and them and since it is not harmful neither forbidden, I believe (here it comes my opinion) we should not oppress anyone.
I don't know why you think 422-4 goes against homosexual people and I don't know why when the homosexuality subject is brought everybody runs to bring together lust and adultery and gay parades with glitter and queer behaviors, because they are not related as, for example, God's deen and Daesh are not.
422-24 is giving a list of what is not allowed, so what? I did not even mention it and I dont know what it brings to this topic... Can you please explain further?
Please read 2221 with no brackets and no prejudice and no translation.
God knows best
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Peace Sister....
I have no personal attacks...God is witness.. You can ask from God when you have opportunity... I only argue with what people wrote.... Don't try to streamline what you said in your first thread by saying personal attacks bla bla so you would look innocent in others eyes. ...
First of all happy that you are not one who is involved in homosexuality as you confirmed but you only talking in support of them that's worse than you don't practice.. . Fine.. you used a new word now ""born differently" so make things neutralize...
Look sister if matters are not explicit in Quran then dig deep to get meaning.. For example did God forbid in 422-24 a brother to marry another brother... Just say explicitly Yes or No.. Was it explicit in Quran... How then we took that brother is not allowed to marry while quran isn't explicit in words to show... By exploring the verse further and positive way... If taken in its literal way, then I don't see any reason why a brother cannot marry another brother (that in the end in society LGBT) ...
Did you read meticulously whole thing under this topic.. Or you just rushed...
Sister.... Sex is sex, be it adultery or lesbian or gay... In the end they get what they want as pleasure by doing that.. Be the partner same gender or different OR animals or child Abuse they get the results...
God is just...
In the whole world those who do homosex are not merely differently born... They are perfect like you and me... The one who does homosex also marry and live normal life...even Lut community ...it was not a community without family life and womenless... But their lust overtook....
There are people who look different to normal people... Man look like woman or woman looks as man. .so you must be talking about them as well with sympathy.. People are there in this world who are born different in many aspects needless to elaborte... We can't apply different law for them... But they are people with less fortunate...
If one man is born n grown to look as woman then he is unfortunate like one who is born blind dumb or legless or handless or born joined.etc.. For me they are unfortunate.. That we see in animals as well and in Flora ... Just coz they are unfortunate doesn't mean they can change the ethics of a society..God's scriptures are for able people.. For example (I gave you two eyes don't you see. -- this cannot be applied to blind) . Since they look as woman so they opted their own way.. And most of them their whole life is sex and prostitution.... They don't live a life other than that.... Some such they keep away from marriages and live single coz they are weak like a blind.... No-one can marry them and have a meaningful life. Is blind and the one with vision same... Unfortunate ones are unfortunate that we cannot change or we can't support what they do is right.
When I visited last year India I saw lots such people roaming in the streets.. Men wearing women dress and rarely saw women like men.. We had opportunity talk with them... They were ousted from families coz of their unfortunate birth... So they turned themselves to women and involve in prostitution for survival though they could opted other means but with harfship.... This could be the case worldwide mostly except western world... If you think they should also live sex life and this is not the way... This will demoralize a society... They invented a way coz of their weaknesses...
Sister... Child Abuse or sex with children is also so natural... Most of those who practice they like children naturally .. So support them as well.. Human heart is full of evil, when opportunity presents he steps into it...
Simply God has not allowed any immoral act and ways...
How unfair then God says wait till God enrich you to marry and keep away illegal sex, but these LGBT is freely enjoying and still they are not culpable. .Sister why you brought only verse 780 and trying to substantiate your claim hiding the next verse
781 "Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."****this what you said after presenting 780
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Therefore this verse can not talk about homosexuality, because Lut’s people did not invent homosexuality, neither they make it for the first time in history. It is not exclusive to humankind‹‹‹We don't oppress any LGBT or any human fir that matter as believer, but we say what is Quran says... If it is immoral then immoral... Let them do as all other dirty things happening in this world but don't encourage immoral acts..... Unless you convince with Quran and bring your confirmation with strong debate....
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Salam,
Look sister if matters are not explicit in Quran then dig deep to get meaning.. For example did God forbid in 422-24 a brother to marry another brother... Just say explicitly Yes or No.. Was it explicit in Quran... How then we took that brother is not allowed to marry while quran isn't explicit in words to show... By exploring the verse further and positive way... If taken in its literal way, then I don't see any reason why a brother cannot marry another brother (that in the end in society LGBT) ... Did you read meticulously whole thing under this topic.. Or you just rushed...
The point is that you compare things that have nothing to do one with the another. A brother marrying his brother is wrong even if Quran explicity says so or not. It is an option, a wrong option.
What I am talking all the time is that some things are writen in Quran, others not. When they are not explicit, it comes to us to see if it is wrong or not. In my case, i researched and found out that homosexuality is not wrong for the reasons I already wrote and I am not going to write again so we get tired.
Lets imagine there is a land of only black haired people when a blonde individual is born. That land has a divine book stating that black-haired people should marry black-haired people. It also says people should not oppress one another.
The blonde guy has 2 options paint his hair and pretend all his life he is a black haired individual taking with him a wife and a family based on lies and fooling, always hidding, pretending, or "exile himself" from that land.He is not a bad person and he does not want to fool a poor wife and the rest of people, so he choses option 2. In his lonely life once he meets another blonde person. He thinks he has the chance to be happy and feel fine in this life finally. But then black-haired people tell him that it is a sin that two blonde people are together.
Are black-haired people oppressing blonde people?
What is wrong with 2 blonde people trying to be happy?
Is blond people's option to be blonde and can they change it?
Did God made a mistake?In the whole world those who do homosex are not merely differently born... They are perfect like you and me... The one who does homosex also marry and live normal life...even Lut community ...it was not a community without family life and womenless... But their lust overtook....
There are people who look different to normal people... Man look like woman or woman looks as man. .so you must be talking about them as well with sympathy.. People are there in this world who are born different in many aspects needless to elaborte... We can't apply different law for them... But they are people with less fortunate...Science says they are differently born. In any case, we should never oppress them while we dont know.
Me, personally, will not even get the smallest risk to be oppressing others.On the other side, I don't think Lut's people have to do with homosexuality. Lut's people have to do with fornication and other unethical matters not related to sex. I don't know why zina has to be always about sex like other things in this world were not a bigger sin. I don't understand this fixation with sex being the greatest sin when there are wars and hunger and oppression in this world.
If you ask cheated people, most of them will tell you that what hurt them the most was not the fact of sex between theis partners and a third person. What hurt the most was the treachery. So zina is not necessarily related to a sexual act, it means much more as not being clear, as being selfish, as not taking into account many other things and disdain.
If one man is born n grown to look as woman then he is unfortunate like one who is born blind dumb or legless or handless or born joined.etc.. For me they are unfortunate.. That we see in animals as well and in Flora ... Just coz they are unfortunate doesn't mean they can change the ethics of a society..God's scriptures are for able people.. For example (I gave you two eyes don't you see. -- this cannot be applied to blind) . Since they look as woman so they opted their own way.. And most of them their whole life is sex and prostitution.... They don't live a life other than that.... Some such they keep away from marriages and live single coz they are weak like a blind.... No-one can marry them and have a meaningful life. Is blind and the one with vision same... Unfortunate ones are unfortunate that we cannot change or we can't support what they do is right.
When I visited last year India I saw lots such people roaming in the streets.. Men wearing women dress and rarely saw women like men.. We had opportunity talk with them... They were ousted from families coz of their unfortunate birth... So they turned themselves to women and involve in prostitution for survival though they could opted other means but with harfship.... This could be the case worldwide mostly except western world... If you think they should also live sex life and this is not the way... This will demoralize a society... They invented a way coz of their weaknesses...
Sister... Child Abuse or sex with children is also so natural... Most of those who practice they like children naturally .. So support them as well.. Human heart is full of evil, when opportunity presents he steps into it...
Simply God has not allowed any immoral act and ways...
How unfair then God says wait till God enrich you to marry and keep away illegal sex, but these LGBT is freely enjoying and still they are not culpable. .That's the problem, you are using a very poor stereotype of homosexual people. I am not. I am talking about believers being homosexual.
Sister why you brought only verse 780 and trying to substantiate your claim hiding the next verse
781 "Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."****this what you said after presenting 780
I have been looking at that verse many years, and I have come to one conclusion which is we can't conclude it is homosexuality.
Look at the verse
"You are approaching the men out of desire instead of the women! Indeed, you are a transgressing people."Look at that "with desire" shahwatan. This word is only used again in Quran in 2755 for the almost same sentence again about Lut's people.
But the root is used in many other cases, never indicating lust or sexual desire1657 And they assign daughters to God; be He glorified; and to them is what they desire.
21102 They shall not hear the slightest sound from it, and they will be in what their souls desires abiding therein.
3454 And a separation was made between them and what they had desired, as was done to their counterparts before. They have been in grave doubt.
4131 "We are your allies in this worldly life and in the Hereafter. In it you will have anything your soul desires, and in it you will have anything you ask for."
4371 They will be served with golden trays and cups, and they will find everything the self desires and the eyes wish for, and you will abide therein.
5222 We will supply them with fruit and meat such as they desire.
5621 And meat of birds that they desire.
7742 And fruit from what they desire.Other times indeed it seems to have this sema about sexual desire
314 It has been adorned for people to love the desire of women, and sons, and ornaments made from gold and silver, and trained horses, and livestock, and fields. These are the enjoyment of the world, and with God is the best abode.
427 And God wants to pardon you, but those who follow desires want that you would be diverted into a great diversion.
1959 Then, generations came after them who lost the Connection, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.In any case, it would be a contradiction used in 781, there must be something very wrong with the way we understand this verse and the root because then it would be lawful to approach women with sexual desire. Also we would be admitting that in Paradise we will have lust and sexual pleasures.
In any case, It is pointless and an unnecessary effort to try to change other's opinions when they are not willing to change it and they feel comfortable with their own, as it is your case and my case.
Indeed, I feel comfortable with my opinion and i have no intention to deconstruct it, neither to change yours. So let's not move into unnecessary exercises of imposition or insistence. Let's thank God we have a place like this to discuss and stop discussing whenever we want.
Only God knows best
