Why PLURAL to call God......
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Peace everyone....
Normally when we ask a dua or supplication we call only our Lord, Creator of Earth and Heavens and whatever between them….We don’t want to call anyone else and ask our dua… right?...When God used “WE” in verses we can simply deduce that between God and US another is in operation or assisting… That’s Angel Messengers…for example ….”WE destroyed them” or We delivered the message or WE called Ibrahim…God, Angel messengers involved in doing such things for human…So WE could suit without doubt… that’s my understanding… if any other substantial understanding pls present…
But my question is relevant with below verse… or such similar verses…
3775-76 “And Noah had certainly called US, (nādānā) and the best of responders. And WE saved him and his family from the great affliction.”
Above is not the statement of Nuh directly in quran.. but directly from God saying Nuh called US instead of ME (God)… why Nuh need to call in PLURAL instead of SINGULAR….
I tried but not yet in a position to perceive other than this option… only option came to my mind is like… Any Angel Messenger would have come to Prophet Nuh and during that time He would have told / discussed like to inform God (or whatever discussed is also God involved since they were Angel Messengers representing God)…pretty weird to first up.. but does “NADANA” suit otherwise?... another example… same way Ibrahim almost begged to God through guests Messengers…1174 the word used is ( yujādilunā)-‘he argued with US’…. In fact Ibrahim was talking/arguing to/with the Angel guest Messengers, but God used the word “ARGUED WITH US’…. So what Angel spoke is in fact what God had to / meant to speak… So strange for me and thrilling.. Even simple dialogue of Angel Messengers on a mission to Human Messengers speaks on behalf of God and nothing they speak of themselves to be called by God precisely saying as ARGUED WITH US.. while only Angel Messengers and Human Messenger argued physically..If not why Nuh called “NADANA”… hope you guys have better grasp of this matter…. Pls share your thoughts….
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//Above is not the statement of Nuh directly in quran.. but directly from God saying Nuh called US instead of ME (God)… why Nuh need to call in PLURAL instead of SINGULAR….//
In trouble you call upon some powerful, holder of majesty for help. ''He called upon Our Majesty''. We have the concept of Majestic plural. Nothing unusual.
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Salam,
They might not be the same
141 ALR, a Book which We have sent down to you so that you may bring the people out of the darkness and into the light with the permission of their Lord, to the path of the Noble, the Praiseworthy.
1964 And we are not sent except by the authority of your Lord. To Him are our present and our future, and all that is in-between. And your Lord was never to forget.
God knows best
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//Above is not the statement of Nuh directly in quran.. but directly from God saying Nuh called US instead of ME (God)… why Nuh need to call in PLURAL instead of SINGULAR….//
In trouble you call upon some powerful, holder of majesty for help. ''He called upon Our Majesty''. We have the concept of Majestic plural. Nothing unusual.
Peace....
Did you guys got me what I wrote…or my explanation is bit awkward to divert to another angle of this topic… …. Yes.. Quincy and Mazhar. Lord is King, Sovereign… and HE is our Majesty….that’s true…but where is the word …. But take the below example pls…
3841 “And remember Our servant Job, WHEN HE CALLED (nādā) TO HIS LORD, ……. …. ."
So it is not necessary to call even at a time of trouble (“nadanā” – ‘CALLED US’) unless something was distinctive with the way Nuh approached… isn’t it? Approach of Ibrahim in1174 is crystal clear (Ibrahim-Angel Messengers-God{indirect}) so “ Yujādilunā” ‘Argued with US’ is used. Remember in this ‘US’ God is included …it was not merely an argument between Angels and Ibrahim…Angel Messengers have no reason to argue with human..unless it was an argument of God and Ibrahim.. but they talked what God wanted to talk..it was only the voice of Angel Messengers but it is the words of God that they uttered… don’t you think so..?
Since Prophert Ayyub called directly his Lord no Messengers involved in that call.. SINGULAR. Same we call our Lord in Dua (Ya Allah, Ya Rahman, Ya Rabbi). Had Nuh called directly then, I don’t see any reason for him to call his Lord as God says ‘nadanā’… We normally know how Nuh called his Lord.. for example 1145 “And Noah CALLED TO HIS LORD and said, "MY LORD, indeed my son is of my family ….." in this there is nothing wrong.. isn’t it?…but 3775 is different completely.. but somehow ‘Called US’ is used…God didn’t say ‘Called ME’..so MY LORD is not the way Nuh could have used in 3775..…for me Nuh never called his Lord by words in 3775…but same as Ibrahim, Nuh would have been discussing with Angel Messengers…never called his Lord. that’s my option… we better view this in a wider possible vistas.. I sense it is something more than Royal or Majesty merely to support ‘US’…but I don’t see the word ‘majesty’ is inserted there..(nada+na is just simply called+us)I feel the involvement of God – Malaika – Man.. simply like a relay in the conversation .. …has anyone perceived it in this way? If it in case Majesty or Royal then explain me how can it can be in the case of Ibrahim in 1174…Did he call his Majesty while he was only arguing with Angel Messengers on behalf of Lut community… Don’t rush to respond.. it looks very intricate … scrupulously study, you may find probably the difference.. -
Salam,
They might not be the same
141 ALR, a Book which We have sent down to you so that you may bring the people out of the darkness and into the light with the permission of their Lord, to the path of the Noble, the Praiseworthy.
1964 And we are not sent except by the authority of your Lord. To Him are our present and our future, and all that is in-between. And your Lord was never to forget.
God knows best
Peace....
That's right... the WE is used in common in quran that we understand... God + Angel Messengers involved in it.... unless God uses singular .. for example When God called Mosa... it is singular.. saying I am your Lord...not said We are your Lord.... that WE is common.. no issue.. in your example also same... but the concern is 3775.... Why we need to call God in Plural while address only HIM...and not Messengers (Angel).... is my explanation complicated? -
Peace....
That's right... the WE is used in common in quran that we understand... God + Angel Messengers involved in it.... unless God uses singular .. for example When God called Mosa... it is singular.. saying I am your Lord...not said We are your Lord.... that WE is common.. no issue.. in your example also same... but the concern is 3775.... Why we need to call God in Plural while address only HIM...and not Messengers (Angel).... is my explanation complicated?Salam,
I have no answer but a simple and plain that Nuh called all forces to help him with his difficult task and all forces with the permission from the singular and one God responded to him.
Hope you can find a more interesting answer...
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I don't see any problem there, even if you consider the WE as GOD and the Malaika. He called them, it doesn't mean that he committed shirk of any kind. Malaika are a part of GOD and they only do as GOD wishes. Thats why you have Adonai (my Lords) as another synonym for GOD in the hebrew scriptures.
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I don't see any problem there, even if you consider the WE as GOD and the Malaika. He called them, it doesn't mean that he committed shirk of any kind. Malaika are a part of GOD and they only do as GOD wishes. Thats why you have Adonai (my Lords) as another synonym for GOD in the hebrew scriptures.
He doesn't need to call anyone but ONLY God... coz we never call so.. right? and No need to ... Isn't God enough to listen to us?.. ufff... am i complicating the story....I wish i know perfect English....
Unfortunately, I don’t think anyone got my initial thread exactly by the responses I received… If you guys, understood my topic is as “Why it is used ‘WE’ instead of ‘I’ in quran if Allah is ONE”…. NO.. that’s not my topic. Pls grasp... Pls read again…All ‘WE’ and ‘I’ or phrases like ‘Our Lord’, ‘Their Lord’, etc etc etc.. used in quran are absolutely right with reason…no issues.. no issues for me at all…. God used obviously right…
Who is this ‘US’ in particular 1174 and 3775…. “Argued with US” and “Called US”.. how could that be possible? What could be the scenario? How can God say ‘argued with US’ while Ibrahim didn’t argue with God.. but with Messengers… How can God say ‘Called US’ while He is ONE and We don’t call via Messengers in Direct Dua…So… unless there was a dialogue for both the incidents between Nuh/Ibrahim and Angel Messengers… No dialogue ever will happen between Man and Angel Messenger unless God send an Angel messenger to human… so what Angel Messenger spoke is God’s words…. Concern is with Nuh coz… not clear about Angel messengers.. but Ibrahim angel messengers spoke with the verse.. that’s why I assume Nuh also would have spoken with Angel Messengers for God to call in identical manner as of Ibrahim’s incident … Do you get me pls or am I weird… solve this pls with logic..
God is ONE there is no doubt…. -
Who said that? If you would drown in a lake would you call anyone else beside GOD? Calling to someone is different as to worship someone.
hmm.. that's a point.. but that's different,.... we call for help.... but let's stick with the two verses in which Nuh and Ibrahim involved with God.... They didn't ask help from others .... did they?... this 'US' cannot be single... as we see in all 'WE' that is dual .. i.e. God+ .... So... 'US' should be God +..
pls study... before rushing to reply..... remember i am not convinced... i am here to get clarification... pls mind that... so don't rush that can confuse.. -
It makes sense for God to use We if we understand the possibility that God is not necessarily quantifiable to one being with a persona.
For example, in the Stoic philosophy, often time they speak about the Logos, the phenomena that governs all things with reason or in Hinduism, the ultimate reality that is the Brahman. It's something but we don't know what it is exactly or what its nature is. But we mistakenly always think of God as someone with a name and a character etc, in the example of a person that could be drawn or made statues of. But that's not necessarily true.What if God is like an organization, the executives and the workforce together. In the abrahamic religions Elohim and his Archangels. Or in other religions you have the supreme God and the minor god. etc.
So one could explore these different possibilities with thoughtfulness knowing none of it can be verifiable. or you could say for some reason God is using "We" to glorify himself and then call it a day.
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It makes sense for God to use We if we understand the possibility that God is not necessarily quantifiable to one being with a persona.
For example, in the Stoic philosophy, often time they speak about the Logos, the phenomena that governs all things with reason or in Hinduism, the ultimate reality that is the Brahman. It's something but we don't know what it is exactly or what its nature is. But we mistakenly always think of God as someone with a name and a character etc, in the example of a person that could be drawn or made statues of. But that's not necessarily true.What if God is like an organization, the executives and the workforce together. In the abrahamic religions Elohim and his Archangels. Or in other religions you have the supreme God and the minor god. etc.
So one could explore these different possibilities with thoughtfulness knowing none of it can be verifiable. or you could say for some reason God is using "We" to glorify himself and then call it a day.
Let's not deviate from the topic of possible... Nature of God is a different big subject.... Of course we don't know how God looks. We will never know till we see Him..
But God Claims He is ONE... God claims He is The God... He claims He is the god of Naas, .. God claims is one God better or gods? God has names and ordered us to call by His names. .somehow He is ONE not two... He is not ilahain..... Or aaliha, but Wahid... -
I actually hit the subject in its core.
ONE WHAT ? One person-like individual ? One environment ? One organization with its constituents ? One whole englobing everything else ?The thing is, and whether you realize it or not, but most people think of God being one as in a single individual.
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Well the nearest to GOD are the Mala'ikah as he created them from pure light. GOD is an-Nur as well, i can pretty much imagine that they have a direct connection to as-Samad. In some Sufi orders people also call out to Jibril and other Mala'ikah - even to some saints. But does that mean that they are GOD? No, being divine is something else then GOD. GOD never forbid to make contact with Mala'ikah or even Jinn.
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Peace....
Did you guys got me what I wrote…or my explanation is bit awkward to divert to another angle of this topic… …. Yes.. Quincy and Mazhar. Lord is King, Sovereign… and HE is our Majesty….that’s true…but where is the word …. But take the below example pls…
3841 “And remember Our servant Job, WHEN HE CALLED (nādā) TO HIS LORD, ……. …. ."
So it is not necessary to call even at a time of trouble (“nadanā” – ‘CALLED US’) unless something was distinctive with the way Nuh approached… isn’t it? Approach of Ibrahim in1174 is crystal clear (Ibrahim-Angel Messengers-God{indirect}) so “ Yujādilunā” ‘Argued with US’ is used. Remember in this ‘US’ God is included …it was not merely an argument between Angels and Ibrahim…Angel Messengers have no reason to argue with human..unless it was an argument of God and Ibrahim.. but they talked what God wanted to talk..it was only the voice of Angel Messengers but it is the words of God that they uttered… don’t you think so..?
Since Prophert Ayyub called directly his Lord no Messengers involved in that call.. SINGULAR. Same we call our Lord in Dua (Ya Allah, Ya Rahman, Ya Rabbi). Had Nuh called directly then, I don’t see any reason for him to call his Lord as God says ‘nadanā’… We normally know how Nuh called his Lord.. for example 1145 “And Noah CALLED TO HIS LORD and said, "MY LORD, indeed my son is of my family ….." in this there is nothing wrong.. isn’t it?…but 3775 is different completely.. but somehow ‘Called US’ is used…God didn’t say ‘Called ME’..so MY LORD is not the way Nuh could have used in 3775..…for me Nuh never called his Lord by words in 3775…but same as Ibrahim, Nuh would have been discussing with Angel Messengers…never called his Lord. that’s my option… we better view this in a wider possible vistas.. I sense it is something more than Royal or Majesty merely to support ‘US’…but I don’t see the word ‘majesty’ is inserted there..(nada+na is just simply called+us)I feel the involvement of God – Malaika – Man.. simply like a relay in the conversation .. …has anyone perceived it in this way? If it in case Majesty or Royal then explain me how can it can be in the case of Ibrahim in 1174…Did he call his Majesty while he was only arguing with Angel Messengers on behalf of Lut community… Don’t rush to respond.. it looks very intricate … scrupulously study, you may find probably the difference..When we call upon Allah, we use singular pronoun. When He the Exalted informs others about someone's call then uses the Plural Pronoun for expressing from Majestic point of view/perspective.
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When we call upon Allah, we use singular pronoun. When He the Exalted informs others about someone's call then uses the Plural Pronoun for expressing from Majestic point of view/perspective.
would you pls bring me couple of verses other than these two verses for me to study...
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I actually hit the subject in its core.
ONE WHAT ? One person-like individual ? One environment ? One organization with its constituents ? One whole englobing everything else ?The thing is, and whether you realize it or not, but most people think of God being one as in a single individual.
Peace Cerberus...
No you are not in line with subject.. you are deviating to one of the Greatest intricate topic....i hope you get me...
7522-23 “Faces, that Day, will be radiant, Looking at their Lord.”
1007 “those who hope not for their meeting with US ….. “ 18105 “Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in meeting Him … “ (singular and Plural)Look at the difference… it shows we will see our Lord (in fact the radiant ones)… the next verse “Meeting with US”… it indicates… we will not only see God but His Messengers… in fact we will meet them on the day of Judgment.. But we meet Him definitely…
So God is ONE and VISIBLE …. Whatever the way He looks is irrelevant to the topic… Pls read my initial thread again if you have patience....