The reading of the the verse 2:187 (Siyam / fasting)
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I do not see the practical use of the following attitude
"Sorry I cannot talk to you right now because I'm connecting with God"There is no growth and maturing from hiding away in some "spiritual" retreat. People and ourselves are the fuel to our growth.
Fasting is done among people and the best fasting is the one that is kept secret,as quoted in the book of Matthew
"When you fast, do not be somber like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they already have their full reward. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, so that your fasting will not be obvious to men, but only to your ''''Father''''', who is unseen. "It makes sense, the purpose of fasting is to become more conscious and self-controlling. There is no real gain if you do that in a space devoid of any challenges.
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Peace…
discernible instructions are given which has no ambiguous meaning… verses 2183-187 so obvious and God Himself claims that He explains so crystal clearly… (2187 “ ..Thus does Allah make clear His Verses to the people …. . … . .”) If God claims he makes His verses clear and simple then there cannot be in the same verse ambiguous meaning… isn’t it…?
Remember my fellow believers, instructions / timing / way to do it / when to complete/ exemption / alternative etc for ‘Siyam’ is in verses 2183-187 in its comprehensiveness and not in any other verses and the instruction is thoroughly manifest…
Don’t ever complicate with Zackaria and Mariyam….They are not instructions prescribed (kuthiba)
In Zakaria verses there is nothing mentioned of Siyam… Zakaria was claiming for a SIGN from his Lord after hearing a glad tiding of a Child in his old age… Then God gives him a SIGN ….. That’s not instruction for Siyam…
In Maryam verses…. She was under a date palm tree while she was delivering the birth of Isa… and whoever spoke to her told her to shake the stem of the tree so that she can get fresh dates and also there was a stream of water… so she has to eat and drink after delivering the child birth and after especially be happy /content (Wa-Qarri Aynan)… and not to fast.. She should be strong and be content with what happened to her and not to get disappointed.. Coz she was discontented when initially she got the message of a child to be born without no man touching her…she implored her death and to get forgotten … So with wa-qarri aynan all her bad feeling removed..To be content and be happy practically, Then she was further instructed to say as “She has vowed (Nadzarth)”… This vowing (solemn promise) is totally personal act in life.. optional in my understanding… But Siyam as per 2183-187 is not optional but compulsory since it has to be done even on alternative days when not done ..etc etc..
So what she Vowed is ‘SAWM’ and remember not the similar word of ‘SIYAM’ though probably same root… What she was instructed is to be dumb (by not talking to people).. The reason behind this is just to save her from unnecessary conversation with people since she is holding a child without marriage… So when she says “I have vowed to Ar Rahman a ‘Sawm’ (not talking being dumb) then she will be relieved by people from further questioning as a respect ..
Now let’s see prescribed Siyam…
Siyam only take place during Nahar (day) and not at night… that’s why God call “during the night of Siyam” about sex and eating and drinking… God never talks of eating and drinking and sex during the Nahar (day) … the word “Haththa” is non other but “Until” … if God instructs to eat and drink using the word “UNTIL” then what is beyond that position is perceivable… isn’t that common sense?
Further God says to “Complete” Siyam to Night… If God orders to COMPLETE then it is when the night falls… No way you can continue beyond that point while God orders to complete… useless…God only orders to perform ‘Siyam’ during Day (Nahar)… that’s crystal clear.. If Siyam is completed at Night then restrictions will be eased ‘UNTIL’ the white thread of Dawn appears clear..… so next day’s Siyam begins till number of days to be completed.. So God points to Fajr and Start of Night be the period eased from restrictions…. So, He allowed eating drinking and sex during this period… Coz Siyam is not a continuous process throughout the day (24 hours) What zakaria was ordered is Nahar and Lail (day and Night) which is complete three days of sign language…
Night is NO Siyam…but God allows the sex within the context of verses “only during the night”… So.. even one stays in Masajid (sanctuaries) during day inevitably he or she should avoid sex, coz Siyam is only during day..regardless he stays in masajid or home or any place.. no sex during day..Coz it is allowed clearly at “night of Siyam” NOT “during day of Siyam”…. Accordingly this “Akifuna” is not part of Siyam but merely an additional instruction to certain set of people who remains / stay in Masajid (sanctuaries) during the nights of ‘Siyam’… So manifestly allowed act of sex during the night of Siyam becomes restricted based on the place he or she is opted to stay….coz Masajid are places where God’s name is much applauded …. To perform sex in such places is not worthy though sex is not a bad act of human nature.. There could be huge sanctuaries people may be resting / staying to magnify God… example where Haj took place during the time of Muhamed… Why God RESTRICTED SEX while performing HAJ… coz Haj is performed in Restricted sanctuary (masjid Haram)… same rule apply at any time any Masajid (sanctuaries) …No sex in them.. though place could be even open huge areas of land, but if it is a sanctuary then no sex..As well other occurrences of ‘Siyam’ in quran doesn’t comply with the meaning as “Secluding and meditating for God avoiding talking with other”… specially occurrences of siyam for penalizing for an act… such as two consecutive shahrain of siyam which is penalizing for an act…. By force asking to meditate in seclusion and avoiding talking… that’s bizarre..punishment to meditate? That’s nonsensical…but punishment of depriving food and drink and sex for consecutive shahrain may have meaning… God knows best..
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Peace,
We can not consider that part of the verses. God explains, repeats and brings complementary information in each verse, as for salat / zakkat.
Every verse should be considered and cross referenced... That's what I pointed out Maryam and zakaria irrelevant...
Siyam is complete in verses 2183-187..try to grasp it with further studies... May God bless you -
Focus only on what is said in the verse
continue / complete siyam,
what are we doing during siyam you are devoted in the temples
and do not approach women sexually while you are devoted in the temples.
nothing to add.
Pls try to understand that there is no siyam duirng night whatever the meaning You get for siyam... So only siyam during day (nahar)... So no chance of sex... Just try to get basic when God use 'Uhilla' that is to say Halal for you your own wife during night to approach... Why specify it is halal at night then imagine what is during day... No need to highlight night and say halal... Apply more common sense in that... Then you will grasp...
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Another verse
731 O Children of Adam, dress nicely at every temple, and eat and drink and do not indulge; He does not like the indulgers.
In ancient time, a sanctuary was a most frequent place where people went to undertake religious rituals, sacrifice, prayer, and the giving of votive offerings, making vowes and accomplish them.. Some sanctuaries, additionally, acted as meeting places, trading places, political centres, and so on. ... Many places and things were considered sacred in antiquity.... Further sanctuaries were place of refuge and rest especially in peace.. This was common throughout the world in ancient times... These sanctuaries were part and parcel of yester year people and it was imperative for their life and all regardless of their belief respected sanctuaries and it was not place to fight in general ..
It such a place to visit in tidy dress and a place where you happen to eat and drink abundantly by looking at what is happening there... Even mostly free or paid... Children of Adam means anyone regardless of faith... So all are welcome in sanctuaries of God and eat n drink... As long as they obey and respect the sanctuaries ...In addition to that... I think I talked about this in my old threads... Order of revelation is perfect for me.. No idea who preserved it... It has to be in any way QURAN is around.. Common sense is that before instructed anything to do the way of doing it must be given.... If God said to fast in an earlier verse then it is meaningless unless people knew when to fast and what to do.. So order of revelation is is key... Chapter 2183-187 is revealed well before all other fasting occurences revealed... For example.. If God revealed fast consecutive shahrain as punishment then first he should know what is fasting .... So God revealed 2183-187 then only all siyam... Look below link for order of revelation...
https//wikiislam.net/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Qur%27an
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Pls try to understand that there is no siyam duirng night whatever the meaning You get for siyam... So only siyam during day (nahar)... So no chance of sex... Just try to get basic when God use 'Uhilla' that is to say Halal for you your own wife during night to approach... Why specify it is halal at night then imagine what is during day... No need to highlight night and say halal... Apply more common sense in that... Then you will grasp...
Salam,
I quoted your answer to Houriya - Ok let's apply common sense and see what the Qur'an says.
-- Your statement siyam = "do not eat and drink during the day."
Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187
First part
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn.
Second part
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.Comparing these two parts and IF your classic statement is correct, then we must admit that the Quran contradicts itself!
One conclusion is necessary either Allah contradicts himself and we twist the meaning of this passage if we are believers (not faithful) avoiding contradiction, OR our understanding of the word Siyam is not the right one.
Peace
The words of Allah speak for themselves. -
Salam,
I quoted your answer to Houriya - Ok let's apply common sense and see what the Qur'an says.
-- Your statement siyam = "do not eat and drink during the day."
Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187
First part
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn.
Second part
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.Comparing these two parts and IF your classic statement is correct, then we must admit that the Quran contradicts itself!
One conclusion is necessary either Allah contradicts himself and we twist the meaning of this passage if we are believers (not faithful) avoiding contradiction, OR our understanding of the word Siyam is not the right one.
Peace
The words of Allah speak for themselves.Peace Dear brother....
Nice to see you back after a while...First of all nothing is my statement... Quran has stated and people are here to understand and their understanding of Quran speaks with words...
Accordingly... My understanding of siyam with thorough application of thought into it is non other but avoiding the consumption of food and drink and avoid sex during Nahar (Day)...
Does it contradict with what is written in Quran? If you claim so, it is your responsibility to explain how it contradicts rather than just wording; it contradicts... I may contradict but QURAN will never...
Look brother... Keep a very open mind... Forget who I am and the way you consider me as a person and only apply to your thought what I speak and not as a person... That attitude helps to perceive things... Hope you are already.... I cultivated that attitude long time back... That immensely helped me to understand regardless of who speaks with us... alright ... God knows why I said this... Anticipate you benefit...Meticulously look at the verse... When God says to eat and drink on the verge of the demise of Dawn then there must have meaning why He instructs us to eat at dawn before morning breaks in... Remember untill white thread clearly visible this period is night... Non but night... And the other end is start of Night. . God used two crucial words UNTIL and TILL.....
** God clarified sex is halal at night...(so if one take definition of night to be from darkness of dusk to clear white thread of Dawn... Then it is halal during that period)... Did Allah say "it is made lawful for you approaching your wives at Nahar(day)?.. .No... If day and night sex then what is siyam?.. Lol.. Remember the clear difference in Haj day and night sex is forbidden.. ...** God clarified eating and drinking to be done at night... If at night sex is allowed what is the use of forbidding food and drink...you want to starve and sex at night. .. So food is allowed at night... That's common sense.. For sure... Note carefully...
Did God say eat and drink day and night...? NO... God put restrictions.. Restrictions started with the word UNTIL.... ..IF as claimed by sister Hourya, the process of eating and drinking is throughout (night and day) and there is no restrictions, then why God in the first place should say eat and drink UNTIL white thread.. That's absolutely nonsensical... Why the word Until is at all required for eating and drinking ..Now let's turn to TILL... IF siyam is throughout (day and night) why word TILL at all required...
God could have used for both UNTIL.. but God knows beyond anyone the knowledge of application of language...
Until is used because beyond that eating and drinking is waste of effort in the context of siyam.. We should stop... No point eating beyond... It's like mandatory statement by using UNTIL...
but for completing or in common language to breakfast God used TILL.. it's not looking mandatory at all.. You breakfast at that time or bit delay no harm.. Coz you already fasted... Delay in time beyond the time is harmless...even you don't eat and drink at breakfast no harm... Just we completed... It is not must we should eat.. Even only a glass of water woukd do... That's optional... But eating and drinking at the dawn beyond the time is waste... And specially at dawn God asks us to eat and drink and not while breakfast... Coz God doesn't want to give us hardship by having to fast without food....so simply those who are not affordable for food and drink at dawn is exempted from fasting.. No fasting in empty stomach.. That's common sense for all.. Isn't it..Let me know those who claim that Siyam = Meditation for number of days nonstop...
Let me know how you do it?.. I will definitely in sha allah point out your flaws in it according to verses...In fact words of Allah speaks... It will only speak the truth
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peace,
Comparing these two parts and IF your classic statement is correct, then we must admit that the Quran contradicts itself!
One conclusion is necessary either Allah contradicts himself and we twist the meaning of this passage if we are believers (not faithful) avoiding contradiction, OR our understanding of the word Siyam is not the right one.
When making a bold claim such as a potential contradiction in Quran it would be handy if you could clarify where exactly is the contradiction.
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peace,
When making a bold claim such as a potential contradiction in Quran it would be handy if you could clarify where exactly is the contradiction.
Peace brother,
Here, the text is clear by himself - i just put in evidence the text and the classic interpretation of the word siyam by qoting Jkhan - normally i do not have to explain more. But i will do it by answering Jkhan. -
Peace Dear brother....
Nice to see you back after a while...First of all nothing is my statement... Quran has stated and people are here to understand and their understanding of Quran speaks with words...
Accordingly... My understanding of siyam with thorough application of thought into it is non other but avoiding the consumption of food and drink and avoid sex during Nahar (Day)...
Does it contradict with what is written in Quran? If you claim so, it is your responsibility to explain how it contradicts rather than just wording; it contradicts... I may contradict but QURAN will never...
Look brother... Keep a very open mind... Forget who I am and the way you consider me as a person and only apply to your thought what I speak and not as a person... That attitude helps to perceive things... Hope you are already.... I cultivated that attitude long time back... That immensely helped me to understand regardless of who speaks with us... alright ... God knows why I said this... Anticipate you benefit...Meticulously look at the verse... When God says to eat and drink on the verge of the demise of Dawn then there must have meaning why He instructs us to eat at dawn before morning breaks in... Remember untill white thread clearly visible this period is night... Non but night... And the other end is start of Night. . God used two crucial words UNTIL and TILL.....
** God clarified sex is halal at night...(so if one take definition of night to be from darkness of dusk to clear white thread of Dawn... Then it is halal during that period)... Did Allah say "it is made lawful for you approaching your wives at Nahar(day)?.. .No... If day and night sex then what is siyam?.. Lol.. Remember the clear difference in Haj day and night sex is forbidden.. ...** God clarified eating and drinking to be done at night... If at night sex is allowed what is the use of forbidding food and drink...you want to starve and sex at night. ).. So food is allowed at night... That's common sense.. For sure... Note carefully...
Did God say eat and drink day and night...? NO... God put restrictions.. Restrictions started with the word UNTIL.... ..IF as claimed by sister Hourya, the process of eating and drinking is throughout (night and day) and there is no restrictions, then why God in the first place should say eat and drink UNTIL white thread.. That's absolutely nonsensical... Why the word Until is at all required for eating and drinking ..Now let's turn to TILL... IF siyam is throughout (day and night) why word TILL at all required...
God could have used for both UNTIL.. but God knows beyond anyone the knowledge of application of language...
Until is used because beyond that eating and drinking is waste of effort in the context of siyam.. We should stop... No point eating beyond... It's like mandatory statement by using UNTIL...
but for completing or in common language to breakfast God used TILL.. it's not looking mandatory at all.. You breakfast at that time or bit delay no harm.. Coz you already fasted... Delay in time beyond the time is harmless...even you don't eat and drink at breakfast no harm... Just we completed... It is not must we should eat.. Even only a glass of water woukd do... That's optional... But eating and drinking at the dawn beyond the time is waste... And specially at dawn God asks us to eat and drink and not while breakfast... Coz God doesn't want to give us hardship by having to fast without food....so simply those who are not affordable for food and drink at dawn is exempted from fasting.. No fasting in empty stomach.. That's common sense for all.. Isn't it..et me know those who claim that Siyam = Meditation for number of days nonstop...
Let me know how you do it?.. I will definitely in sha allah point out your flaws in it according to verses...In fact words of Allah speaks... It will only speak the truth
Salam brother,
ThanksI will not give here my definition of SIYAM coz it needs a big analysis, even if Allah give the answer directly by the text but we are blinded by our prejudices. I just want to focus on the fact that sawm is not SIYAM even if SAWM can be practice during the time of siyam OTHERWISE Allah is contradict himself and it is unacceptable for a mumin. Finally, I will not discuss AGAIN about the fact that "to fast" is NOT a transitive verb and to translate like this in 2-185 is grammatically incorrect, in english like in arabic.
After this parenthesis, i want to underline that you have reason to make a focus on the words ḥattā/until and ilā/till in 2-187.
ilā (à, vers in french) can be inclusive (not ḥattā) SO it is clear just by using this word that "eat and drink" is from ENTERING the night ḥattā/until the emergence of the dawn.You said "Meticulously look at the verse" - funny that's what i invited you too..just by the words of Allah not by any personal opinions.
So i am going to take back my example from the Quran"
Traditionnal statement SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187
First part
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn.
Second part
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
"Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.To conclude just by using words of Allah
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.
A remark Allah doesn't say "and eat and drink and have sex..". Allah is precise and clear. Sorry but Rafatha doesn't means in the quranic context "having sexual relationship with a woman" but "say obscene and rude remarks" like in 2-197 (look at the context).
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Sawm is not fast also discussed before here, mentioned by brother wakas
http//quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=221.0
Peace Sister...
You can only siyam is not fasting.. You are free to remain upon your understanding.. But you have to debate and answer and convince by your debate...Nevertheless... If you are claiming that siyam is meditation secluding to Masajid... We are not to stop it.. You will definitely get the benefit for meditation.. Meditation and magnifying God is definitely worth doing that we have to do everyday if possible...
But you will probably lose the benefit of fasting coz... God says to fast and fasting makes us muttaqun... And fasting is better if you know.. That's what God says..
But even you don't fast you will never be penalized by God.. Coz it is not compulsory in a way to achieve success.. But it is compulsory on believers to be in a status of muttaqun... That's one of the criteria to become muttaqun...After all fasting is not mandatory thing that will take us to Janna... 231-10 and 7023-34 confirms it.. There no fasting at all... But still successful... But only we lose status...
May Allah guide us to what is right and let not He put us in error..
Note.. Waqas accept or not is not important for me.. Important is you or waqas or anyone says is within Quran and debated to convince.. That's key...
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Salam brother,
ThanksI will not give here my definition of SIYAM coz it needs a big analysis, even if Allah give the answer directly by the text but we are blinded by our prejudices. I just want to focus on the fact that sawm is not SIYAM even if SAWM can be practice during the time of siyam OTHERWISE Allah is contradict himself and it is unacceptable for a mumin. Finally, I will not discuss AGAIN about the fact that "to fast" is NOT a transitive verb and to translate like this in 2-185 is grammatically incorrect, in english like in arabic.
After this parenthesis, i want to underline that you have reason to make a focus on the words ḥattā/until and ilā/till in 2-187.
ilā (à, vers in french) can be inclusive (not ḥattā) SO it is clear just by using this word that "eat and drink" is from ENTERING the night ḥattā/until the emergence of the dawn.You said "Meticulously look at the verse" - funny that's what i invited you too..just by the words of Allah not by any personal opinions.
So i am going to take back my example from the Quran"
Traditionnal statement SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187
First part
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn.
Second part
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
"Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.To conclude just by using words of Allah
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.
A remark Allah doesn't say "and eat and drink and have sex..". Allah is precise and clear. Sorry but Rafatha doesn't means in the quranic context "having sexual relationship with a woman" but "say obscene and rude remarks" like in 2-197 (look at the context).
Peace...
If you are not sure what the definition of siyam then you don't have any right to claim by saying contradiction... Isn't it..
If you feel you are prejudiced to traditional siyam then I can't help.. But I am never ever prejudiced to anything but only look for mere guidance...
So you workout first your understanding then let us all know your understanding...
I have given my understanding already...Further if siyam is not fasting and something else in your understanding just explain what is it and how you do it... That's worthy for the readers.. Even I ask this form sister Hourya
Peace -
Further... I should have replied this...
You are saying contradiction emphasising that FIRST part and SECOND part..
That's funny.. You divided into parts... Your misunderstanding made you to claim up to the extent of saying contradiction...
There is no parts..
Brother... How can one fast without eating... Isn't it the responsibility of God to explain what to do before fast.. Otherwise people would continue for days without eating or they would take it as 24 hours fasting by only eating at the advent of night only...
Look brother.. Take example of Salat... God says four steps before salat.. 4 body parts to be cleaned unless of course if we had a full bath..
So this cleaning part is not part of Salat but prior to Salat it is kind of a practice which is imperative..
Same way... Before fasting eating and drinking is must... What's wrong with logic? I wonder..
So first part is must though it is not part of fasting but without it there is no fasting... Got it? -
peace,
"
Traditionnal statement SIYAM = "do not eat and drink during the day time."Let's look at what the Quran says in 2-187
First part
"And eat and drink until become separate from the thread white from the thread black of dawn.
Second part
"thumma/Then atimmū/complete l-ṣiyāma/the fast ilā/till al-layli/the night.
"Why is there a contradiction here between the traditionnal statement and words of Allah ?
the first part is NOT about siyam IF we follow the logic of the traditional statement, right ? because in the first part is about eating and drinking. Ok. Let's continue.
And now, in the second part, Allah asks you to "Complete" SIYAM until you entering the night. How is it possible to complete something that is not siyam ? So you have a contradiction here.
Hope my reasoning if more clear.To conclude just by using words of Allah
- SIYAM is a 24 hours period of time
- SAWM (in this context of 2-183...187 is about "not to eat and drink" - the word is implicit) is only during day time.
You will see that all the passage will become more clear after that.
That is not a contradiction. The error is in your reasoning. Let's work through it step by step...
The verse literally says
do X and Y until Z then complete siyam to the nightIf someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.
Do you agree/disagree?
If you disagree please explain why.
If you agree, then it is clear at point Z eating/drinking ends, and thus a fast has begun. Thus, when it then says "THEN complete the siyam to night" is self-explanatory, i.e. complete the fast that has already begun (at point Z) to the night.
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@ Jkhan= debate is useless and sterile with you. Your opinion is so strong and you don't really take time to meditate quranic evidence i exposed you. Probably my bad english.
@ Wakas
"If someone says to you "do X and Y until Z", it is clear Z is the point at which doing X and Y ends. When/after Z occurs there is no more doing X and Y.Do you agree/disagree?"
=> Of course yes..The problem between us i think is about the word "complete/atimmu". For you siyam begins at dawn and for me it must be completed at day time. the word complete implies that something was starting before. -
Peace Jkhan,
My goal is to share my understanding, I have no power to convince anyone.
Only God can enlighten us.
We must take the time to meditate each verse in order to see clearly later.
Meditation can help to see things clearly in different aspects of our life
I meditated on Nawat's article several days before I decided to share it with you and discuss it.
No worries if we agree on our disagreement.
May God increases our knowledge
God bless
