Siyam : spiritual retreat in the temples

Wakas

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html

2187 Lawful for you nights (of) the abstinence is sexual approach* to your women, they are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray/deceive yourselves so He turned towards you and He forgave you; so now approach** them and seek what God has decreed/written for you. And eat and drink until becomes distinct the white thread from the black thread, of dawn. Then you shall complete the abstinence until the night, and do not approach** them while you are devoting/cleaving in the maSaJiD. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous/God-concious.
*Arabic RaFaTh (root Ra-Fa-Tha)
**Arabic BaShiR (root Ba-Shin-Ra)

IF one takes masajid=mosques then if women were not allowed in them, it would make this statement illogical, thus clearly implying women could be present in the mosques. It also implies men and women are unlikely to be segregated, as they could approach one another, i.e. interact.
Who in their right mind would approach their wife in a sexual manner in a public Mosque? Was this such a temptation or common practice that AQ had to tell them not to do it? According to history/tradition mosques in those early days were very basic or simply courtyards thus unlikely to have multiple rooms so it seems even more odd to suggest such a thing taking place in a Mosque. This traditional understanding verges on the nonsensical.
IF masajids=mosques, why even mention mosques, when there is much greater chance of sexual temptation in the homes during abstinence? The traditional commentators attempt an explanation for this, e.g Jalalayn/Ibn Kathir say this is referring to 'itikaf' (spiritual retreat in the mosque) when believers would leave the mosque for sex then return, when they are meant to reside at the mosque for a certain number of days. This is a complete insertion of course, and hardly "clear" as it implies at the end of the verse, and the obvious error as it says "...WHILE YOU are devoting/cleaving IN the masajid" not when one leaves them. So, it would seem they interpret it as "...while you are staying in the masajid (for itikaf)...".
If it did mean 'itikaf' then this is not explained elsewhere in AQ, e.g. how many days, what does it involve, why, is it obligatory, examples of anyone actually doing it etc. If we are relying upon AQ only for our understanding of this verse, then 'itikaf' must be rejected outright. The consequence of this however, is that it renders the understanding of masajid=mosques illogical, or at least very unusual.
Another explanation put forth for this verse is that sexual approach to your women is permitted in the nights of the abstinence but not when one is staying in the mosques, e.g. The Sacred Mosque (in Mecca). Not for "itikaf" per se but simply a spiritual/devotional retreat there, e.g. travellers to The Sacred Mosque (in Mecca) may have come from afar and thus set up tents there, and this verse is referring to them (a verse cited to support this notion of "residency/staying" is 2225). Not that I necessarily agree with this explanation, but it is at least more plausible than the Traditional explanation, which advocates a specific practice of "itikaf" rather than an undefined one. It is debatable whether the word "akif" means "reside/stay" according to Quran usage, but in any case people staying-over in the mosque seems odd/impractical if one takes "tawaf" as "circumambulation" for example, and the "hadiy" (gifts/offerings) are also to be taken to such a venue. It could make "circumambulation" rather awkward, and if many residents/gifts/animals, perhaps impossible.

Houriya

In the verse 2187, it does not say do not approach them in the temple but while you are devoting / waantum 'akifoon in the temple.
We don't spend the whole day in the temple, we take the time to eat, take a nap.

waantum 'akifoon is like wantum hurum in the verse 5 1 = while you are under this condition 'akifoon / in retreat. You can approch them during the nignt. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them.

51 O you who believe, fulfill the contracts. Permitted for you are the domesticated livestock, except that which is being recited to you—while maintaining the ban on hunting while you are under restriction / wantum hurum. God decrees as He pleases.

Houriya

Peace Jkhan,

Why did God only specify not to approach women when we are on retreat during the day?
the Reading is straightforward in the instructions. this is what is allowed for us on the night of siyam and what is not allo during the day.

I my previous messages, I talked about the definition of siyam as for hajj, we shouldn't confuse them with the instructions to be observed during siyam and hajj.

If the verse 2 187 is clear, everything else will be clear.

Why shahr ramadan is of the utmost importance ?
What should be done during siyam ?

The following verse clearly answers these questions

2185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

Peace Sister..

I have a concern...
Would you pls explain 5804 or 595 or any other fasting.. Does it befit retreat with all siyam?
Why expiation of siyam? Elaborate to us pls how it works for expiation...

jkhan

Peace Jkhan,

Why did God only specify not to approach women when we are on retreat during the day?
the Reading is straightforward in the instructions. this is what is allowed for us on the night of siyam and what is not allo during the day.

I my previous messages, I talked about the definition of siyam as for hajj, we shouldn't confuse them with the instructions to be observed during siyam and hajj.

If the verse 2 187 is clear, everything else will be clear.

Why shahr ramadan is of the utmost importance ?
What should be done during siyam ?

The following verse clearly answers these questions

2185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

Peace Sister..

I hope you didn't answer my original question..
Question is

Peace Sister..

I have a concern...
Would you pls explain 5804 or 595 or any other fasting.. Does it befit retreat with all siyam?
Why expiation of siyam? Elaborate to us pls how it works for expiation..

Houriya

I answered your question with another question.
Our discrepancy concerns verses 2 185 and 187. If these two verses are clear, the rest is clear.

Why did God only specify only not to approach women when we are on retreat during the day?

Why shahr ramadan is of the utmost importance ?
What should be done during siyam ?

The following verse clearly answers these questions

2185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

Peace Sister..

I hope you didn't answer my original question..
Question is

Peace Sister..

I have a concern...
Would you pls explain 5804 or 595 or any other fasting.. Does it befit retreat with all siyam?
Why expiation of siyam? Elaborate to us pls how it works for expiation..

jkhan

I answered your question with another question.
Our discrepancy concerns verses 2 185 and 187. If these two verses are clear, the rest is clear.

Why did God only specify only not to approach women when we are on retreat during the day?

Why shahr ramadan is of the utmost importance ?
What should be done during siyam ?

The following verse clearly answers these questions

2185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

Peace...
Unfortunately still I am not getting it.. Did you really answer to Expiation? If you have I won't ask again.. Coz I am sorry for my inability to understand...

Just explain what Retreat is according to Quran and how to perform it? Most believers whenever they have time they do vigil at night and beg for pardon and even at dawn of even before.. They sacrifice night... But it is not siyam.. They do at will in any day...

What is Retreat.. Or what you personally do as part of Retreat based on Quran?
Curious to know pls..

Houriya

2185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

If the verse above is not enough for you, I have no other answers

I did not answer your first question, the answer was in my first question

Why did God only specify only not to approach women when we are in retreat during the day?

Peace...
Unfortunately still I am not getting it.. Did you really answer to Expiation? If you have I won't ask again.. Coz I am sorry for my inability to understand...

Just explain what Retreat is according to Quran and how to perform it? Most believers whenever they have time they do vigil at night and beg for pardon and even at dawn of even before.. They sacrifice night... But it is not siyam.. They do at will in any day...

What is Retreat.. Or what you personally do as part of Retreat based on Quran?
Curious to know pls..

jkhan

2185 The month of Ramadhan, in which the Qur'an was sent down as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Those of you who have witnessed the month shall fast it; and whoever is ill or traveling, then the same count from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and magnify God for what He has guided you to, and that you may be thankful.

So what is highlighted is you do while you retreat...
Believers magnify God almost daily and thank Him daily.. Day and night..
This is the core of salat and even while Haj...

So magnifying anf thanking God in specified days is Siyam...
Is it?

I make a mistake so God ask me to fast for consecutive two months... That's by compelling.. Compelling to retreat? How do you perceive it?

Houriya

If God ask to fast for consecutive two full moon, it is according the verses 2185 et 2187.

Being in spiritual retreat in the temple or in the hajj has nothing to do with our normal rhythm of life.

if you want to find out, go on a retreat for a few days in the temple of nature.

jkhan

Something is confusing though...
God has mentioned food and drink in the siyam verses... Even He mentions or not we do eat daily if we are provided with food.. That's our routine for life... Why to ask us to eat and drink... And also why mentions eat and drink UNTIL (HATHTHA)... what are these instructions has to do with our magnifying and thanking... Why that specific timing of white thread? Is it some auspicious time to eat and drink... Can we eat after UNTIL? Pls your comments

Houriya

According the verse 2187

The sentence "God knew that you used to betray your souls, so He has redeemed you, and forgiven you" concerns only sexual intercourse.

The first time slot when we can approach women at night
"It has been made permissible for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them"

The second time slot where they should not be approached the day from dawn until night.
These are the limits that we must not transgress.

We lead a normal life at night. From dawn we complete / continue siyam

"do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples" proves that abstaining from sexual intercourse is a limit to be observed during siyam until night but it does not define siyam.

2187 It has been made permissible for you during the night of siyam to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knew that you used to betray your souls, so He has redeemed you, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete / continue siyam until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of God, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God clarifies His revelations to the people that they may be righteous.

ayman

Peace sister Houriya,

What is your interpretation of the word "MSJD"? I tend to agree with brother Wakas that it doesn't make sense for it to mean mosques or congregational buildings. No one in their right mind would have sexual relations with his spouse in a public space.
What is your interpretation is the purpose of "siyam"/abstinence/fasting?
How do you interpret "siyam" in 595? How is it a way for the violator of the hunting restriction to "taste the evil result of his deed"?
Also, how does the timing relate to your interpretation of "siyam" and its purpose?

Peace,

Ayman

Houriya

Peace brother Ayman,

I asked your opinion on the article, you still do not answer.

Accordind the reading, Almasjid is a place with certainty.

I have already answered Wakas to the question about not approaching women when you are devoted in the temple. No inconsistency.

When you approach women at night or during the day, it is certainly not in a public place, it's common sense.

When we are under this condition, you are devouted / waantum 'akifoon, we do not approach women.

Those who have betrayed their soul, they do certainly not in the temples.

Siyam is defined in verses 2 185 and 287. I have no other answers to add on the purpose of siyam.

Peace

Peace sister Houriya,

What is your interpretation of the word "MSJD"? I tend to agree with brother Wakas that it doesn't make sense for it to mean mosques or congregational buildings. No one in their right mind would have sexual relations with his spouse in a public space.
What is your interpretation is the purpose of "siyam"/abstinence/fasting?
How do you interpret "siyam" in 595? How is it a way for the violator of the hunting restriction to "taste the evil result of his deed"?
Also, how does the timing relate to your interpretation of "siyam" and its purpose?

Peace,

Ayman

jkhan

Peace everyone...

I somehow fought with myself and realized the verses of Quran when it comes to siyam... I am glad I got the meaning at last... Yes I was fasting skipping food and drink from very early childhood up until 2018 fir complete month and then researching a lot but realized it is three days but never convinced wgat siyam is... But not anymore... Yes whstever they call spiritual Retreat whatever... But in a real sense for it is seclusion from dawn to night away from sex and worldly pleasures and mainly reading and realising qura, magnifying Lord a lot, praising the God, especially asking forgiveness a lot. It means these three days are totally dedicated or devoted to God alone.... I realized it won't make sense leave food and drink... Those who killed a believer by mistake were commanded to fast coninusly for long periods is in fact meaningful if they do what I said above.. But if they skip food and drink for long period it won't make sense.

Note anyway... I am not gonna debate with anyone on this coz I realized but I have no capacity to debate on this since I am not in a position.. I never recommend anyone too... Do what you do.. But keep researching with begging to God .. Perhaps you will also realize... I am planning my siyam end of summer months start of rainy season full moon..
That's my take...
No one pls do by reading this.. But you research Quran and get inspired and once you get convinced do what is right... That's why I even let my family fast as they fast skip food and drink... Coz they have not sensed it... It should come within self realisation... Yes I have argued a lot against those who realized Seclusion for siyam.. My apologies..
@Ayman.. Akifoona fil masjid = in my understanding is Devoted in the state of submission
Thank you...