New article: salat timings as per The Quran
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peace all,
The regular/timed salat from The Quran how many and when?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.htmlThe Challenge
If you find an error/flaw in the above you will be eligible for $100 USD per error/flaw or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case. Please post any claimed flaws in this thread, thanks. Valid errors/flaws will be determined by the author.Update: errors/flaws in the Quranic argument, not English spelling or grammar.
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Peace Wakas.
I do not agree with "DULUK Al Shams" in verse 1778 being translated as "sunset". here quote1778 uphold the salat (at/for) the setting of the sun / sunset to the darkness of the night and reading (of) the dawn...
Sunset in Arabic is "Maghrib Al Shams"
Please provide your evidence for this?
Here is another translation that disagrees with yours
1778
You shall observe the Salat when the sun declines from its highest point ( noon), as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
This is not sunset itself?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace GL,
I do not agree with "DULUK Al Shams" in verse 1778 being translated as "sunset"
See Lane's Lexicon for the evidence.
Sunset in Arabic is "Maghrib Al Shams"
"maghrib al shams" means "the setting place/time of the sun", see here for explanation.
Here is another translation that disagrees with yours
What a certain translation says is irrelevant. What matters is the evidence. I have already covered this in the article which you seemingly have read and thus have responded to in this thread.
In any case, is it your view that you perform one salat from noon to sunset (e.g. approx 6 hours in the UK where you reside)? -
Peace Wakas.
the lexicon in the link you gave also has"declined" as meaning . The sun starts to decline from its highest point at noon. Why do you only take sunset ?
Actually the sun declining could give at least one timing while the sun is still above the horizon as well as other timings while it carries on declining towards the night.
Therefore what you gave is not conclusive evidence that the timing is 100% correct in your translation.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace GL,
the lexicon in the link you gave also has"declined" as meaning . The sun starts to decline from its highest point at noon. Why do you only take sunset ?
The understanding in the article is the only one that provides perfect coherence. The challenge has been given find a flaw/error. If all you have is word X can theoretically mean something else in a lexicon then fair enough, but that's not a flaw/error.
Let's see what happens when we go with what you are proposing...
Actually the sun declining could give at least one timing while the sun is still above the horizon as well as other timings while it carries on declining towards the night.
So your position is
- the singular salat refers to multiple salat
- Quran explicitly says X to/ila Y which you break up into parts and claim multiple salat. Do you also do the same for ablution in 56 when Quran says wash from hand to/ila elbow, you break it up and only wash parts from hand to elbow? Utter nonsense.
- provides no time-ranges for each concocted salat whatsoever
As I said the understanding in the article is the only one that I have seen which respects the Arabic. Your reply is a good example of what I'm talking about.
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Peace Wakas.
This is not my position, quote
So your position is- the singular salat refers to multiple salat
- Quran explicitly says X to/ila Y which you break up into parts and claim multiple salat. Do you also do the same for ablution in 56 when Quran says wash from hand to/ila elbow, you break it up and only wash parts from hand to elbow? Utter nonsense.
- provides no time-ranges for each concocted salat whatsoever
My position is this
The sun starts to decline from its highest point (Noon). Hence the timing of this salat is Noon . The sun stays in decline to Ghasaki Al Layl then will reverse to upwards towards Nahar..
So my position is one salat at different time from yours.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace all,
The regular/timed salat from The Quran how many and when?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.htmlThe Challenge
If you find an error/flaw in the above you will be eligible for $100 USD or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case. Please post any claimed flaws in this thread, thanks. Valid errors/flaws will be determined by the author.Peace brother Waqas...
Only 100 Dollars... ..... Had you promised more than that for this massive topic, it would have been benefited by donating it... Your choice and a strange choice... Anyway be ready to donate for poor people whereever you live... Lol
By what I said above, don't think that I would prove within Quran that you were wrong...
My concerns...Why did you opt this particular subject to worth 100 Dollar as gift?
But why you prefer to be the solo judge in this case...
Will you cooperate in responses giving it utmost respect by not taking your stance to be more convincing while you are the judge as well?
In court one who produce a complaint cannot be judge simmultanously... Let the quran be the judge.. Okay? So I advice keep a voting system... So let people read the debate and vote of their choice... But let only vote those who partake in the debate... But let the voting be once debate is completed... Since I am law minded I suggested... But as you wish... Soon or later I will partake in this within Quran... Just a hint.. I agree for three Salat... So wait for hard days ahead... LolI appreciate though your effort to convince within Quran... But you seems you are convinced that it is invincible... Let it be
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peace all,
The regular/timed salat from The Quran how many and when?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.htmlThe Challenge
If you find an error/flaw in the above you will be eligible for $100 USD or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case. Please post any claimed flaws in this thread, thanks. Valid errors/flaws will be determined by the author.Peace...
Do you agree that chapter 629-11 is a Salat as well which is on a Congregation Day involving much business and notably amusement ?
My simple question is can you specifically name which Salat it is? You have only two salat as per your article Fajr and Isha... So without assumption can you precisely name the Salat of 629-11 with reasons in order for me to go futher?Further, 2238 your claim wusta is not salat.. Okay.. Then would. You pls let us know which singular Salat God is emphasisng to guard in that verse? Is it Isha OR Fajr and why? And how you judge it?
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peace GL,
I have no idea what timing system you're on about now but in addition to the issues I've pointed out, you say "salat is at noon" when Quran says noon is when one puts aside their garments and is a private time (according to how most interpret 245. I have already mentioned this in the article you have apparently read, point 20.
Why don't you just write a short article and create YOUR OWN thread for your timings view, so we can all put it to the test? Perhaps I'm asking too much.peace jkhan,
I have deployed this tactic of a monetary reward challenge before, e.g. here.
The reason is because this topic is one of the most discussed among those following Quran but poor quality discussion is still present. I should clarify, it is $100 per error/flaw. I have updated the article to make this clearer.
Also, it doesn't seem you have entered a competition before as it is almost always the case that the competition creator makes the rules and has the final say. If anyone doesn't like that, no problem, don't participate.Re 629
In my understanding it can refer to any timed-salat during a time of gathering, or the time of gathering (e.g. during al hajj/commemoration/homage) or perhaps even the market day (which was simply a day during the week when people/business gathered, which later came to be taken as Friday). You can read further here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387
https//web.archive.org/web/20080303232154/https//www.free-minds.org/articles/hadith/friday.htm
https//www.scribd.com/doc/37518569/CH-Becker-on-the-History-of-early-Muslim-Worship-and-Salat-PrayerRe 2238
Already discussed in the links given in the article, e.g. here. -
peace GL,
I have no idea what timing system you're on about now but in addition to the issues I've pointed out, you say "salat is at noon" when Quran says noon is when one puts aside their garments and is a private time (according to how most interpret 245. I have already mentioned this in the article you have apparently read, point 20.
Why don't you just write a short article and create YOUR OWN thread for your timings view, so we can all put it to the test? Perhaps I'm asking too much.peace jkhan,
I have deployed this tactic of a monetary reward challenge before, e.g. here.
The reason is because this topic is one of the most discussed among those following Quran but poor quality discussion is still present. I should clarify, it is $100 per error/flaw. I have updated the article to make this clearer.
Also, it doesn't seem you have entered a competition before as it is almost always the case that the competition creator makes the rules and has the final say. If anyone doesn't like that, no problem, don't participate.Re 629
In my understanding it can refer to any timed-salat during a time of gathering, or the time of gathering (e.g. during al hajj/commemoration/homage) or perhaps even the market day (which was simply a day during the week when people/business gathered, which later came to be taken as Friday). You can read further here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387
https//web.archive.org/web/20080303232154/https//www.free-minds.org/articles/hadith/friday.htm
https//www.scribd.com/doc/37518569/CH-Becker-on-the-History-of-early-Muslim-Worship-and-Salat-PrayerRe 2238
Already discussed in the links given in the article, e.g. here.Peace...
That's cool offer for every error... Every error of whose? Lol..No I have never participated something like this which is connected with Quran and that also on a concerned and a heated topic...
629-11.. I never mentioned Friday prayer (whatever the day it doesn't matter) but on a DAY THE Gathering and not Days.. Haj is of course not a single day which repeats... The verse is much appropriate for a single day which repeats monthly or weakly etc. God didn't say Days of gatherings. You are very specific of singular and plural as well Arabic AL when it comes to Salat.. . Right? So be consistent..
2238 ... I don't see the answer to my specific question in your link.. Would you pls answer by reading my question correctly.. If you have no time fine..
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Peace Wakas.
You say, quote
peace GL,
I have no idea what timing system you're on about now but in addition to the issues I've pointed out, you say "salat is at noon" when Quran says noon is when one puts aside their garments and is a private time (according to how most interpret 245. I have already mentioned this in the article you have apparently read, point 20.
Why don't you just write a short article and create YOUR OWN thread for your timings view, so we can all put it to the test? Perhaps I'm asking too much.So first let clear the timing I mean
I say Duluk Al Shams starts when the sun starts to decline from the sky i.e at Noon.Then it finishes at "Ghasaki Al Leyl like the verse stated in 1778.
Therefore 1778 is saying to us Aquimi Salat ( Yes one salat) at the decline point, when the sun starts to decline from the sky ( Noon salat) ,that decline carries on till Ghasaki Al Leyl.(Minimum point of the decline) before it starts going up towards fajr and Nahar.
The sun has a maximum and a minimum. The timing in 1778 is exact to when the sun starts the decline from the maximum height.
Is this clear for you?
You say "Duluk a Shams" is sunset. At sunset the sun has already declined a lot.Why choose this particular decline? bring from Qoran where "Duluk Al Shams" means sunset. In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams" ...Kabla Ghurubiha.
If 1778 is saying at the decline, the most logical way is the start of the decline. Hence my timing makes more sense than yours.Remember you are asking to find errors in your work.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace...
That's cool offer for every error... Every error of whose? Lol..No I have never participated something like this which is connected with Quran and that also on a concerned and a heated topic...
629-11.. I never mentioned Friday prayer (whatever the day it doesn't matter) but on a DAY THE Gathering and not Days.. Haj is of course not a single day which repeats... The verse is much appropriate for a single day which repeats monthly or weakly etc. God didn't say Days of gatherings. You are very specific of singular and plural as well Arabic AL when it comes to Salat.. . Right? So be consistent..
2238 ... I don't see the answer to my specific question in your link.. Would you pls answer by reading my question correctly.. If you have no time fine..
Further.. I missed one point relevant to 629-11... You didn't give any priority in your reply to AMUSEMENT.. .. You are trying to turn this as fundamentally as Haj, so why AMUSEMENT should be part of Haj... Is it allowed
..okay business in a way... But why amusement... It should be common to any gathering ... -
The regular/timed salat from The Quran how many and when?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.htmlpeace jkhan,
You claim the one option I gave for "the day of gathering" / "a day of gathering" referring to "al hajj" cannot be since that is over a few days. Well your objection is refuted by 93 which uses ""yawma al-haji al-akbari".
I cannot be certain what "yawmi al-juamati" refers to in 629 (and I have never seen anyone make a solid case for one understanding over others, hence why I provided several options) but my point was no matter which you choose it works perfectly well with the article posted in this thread.
Why are you asking me if "amusement/distraction/sport" is allowed in "al hajj" or not, haven't you got a Quran? Show me the verse which says this is not allowed in "al hajj" then we can talk more. I hate to state the obvious but I should point out 629 referring to "al hajj" was simply one option I provided.Re 2238
If a person does not understand something, I recommend re-reading, even if it means re-reading several times. Let me simplify further 2239 refers to the previous verse which mentions upholding the most excellent/balanced salat, and that is obviously the one connected to God / God's system, i.e. the timed-salat. So 2239 is referring to whenever one upholds the timed-salat, it does not matter which one. It's like 56 when it says wash before you observe the timed-salat, it doesn't say which specific salat, it is referring to any timed-salat.peace GL,
Thanks for clarifying. You could have avoided having to clarify by simply answering what I asked you previously, so let me ask you again Quran says do salat X ila/to Y. Do you do one salat from X (which you take as noon) to Y (which you take as "ghasaq al layl", which is currently approx. 7hrs in the UK where you reside? Yes/No.Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, now you say "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams". Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, provide the proof showing it can only mean what you claim it means.
You now say "bring from Qoran where "Duluk Al Shams" means sunset." when I could easily say YOU bring me proof from Quran where it means decline from its zenith? You as well as I know it only occurs once. My argument is painfully simple I have interpreted the verses in such a way that provides the utmost logic, coherence and practicality and have challenged anyone to find a flaw/error. Since we have no idea what your timing system is we cannot compare and see what results.
You then say "If 1778 is saying at the decline, the most logical way is the start of the decline. Hence my timing makes more sense than yours.". You seem to be fixated on "duluk" meaning decline, so tell us, do Classical Arabic dictionaries only mention "decline" as its meaning? Yes/No.
From PRL http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.In any case, it doesn't really matter what meaning one picks for "duluk" from the options, the point of the article is really simple, what matters is can the timings be made to work which respects the Arabic, logic, practicality and when cross-referenced with other verses (i.e. coherence). Since you seem extremely reluctant to detail what your timings system is we cannot compare/test it and see what happens.
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Peace Wakas.
About this, quote
"Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, now you say "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams". Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, provide the proof showing it can only mean what you claim it means."From Qoran
1886
When he reached the far west, he found the sun setting in a vast ocean, and found people there. We said, "O Zul-Qarnain, you can rule as you wish; either punish, or be kind to them."
حَتّىٰ إِذا بَلَغَ مَغرِبَ الشَّمسِ وَجَدَها تَغرُبُ فى عَينٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِندَها قَومًا قُلنا يٰذَا القَرنَينِ إِمّا أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمّا أَن تَتَّخِذَ فيهِم حُسنًاAl Shams Taghrubu, from the verb "Gharaba" . The noun "Maghrib"
I do not see the verb "Tadluku/ dalakat..." - the noun "Duluk"
Likewise here
20130
Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.
فَاصبِر عَلىٰ ما يَقولونَ وَسَبِّح بِحَمدِ رَبِّكَ قَبلَ طُلوعِ الشَّمسِ وَقَبلَ غُروبِها وَمِن ءانائِ الَّيلِ فَسَبِّح وَأَطرافَ النَّهارِ لَعَلَّكَ تَرضىٰ
The word "Ghurubiha" from Gharaba-noun ,Maghrib.
There is more evidence of "Gharb , Gharabat, Ghurub Al Ashms meaning for sunset than "Duluk Al Shams" as sunset in Qoran.Therefore when you sa ,quote
= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.You have also given decline,sinking, incline downwards as meaning .Does this not fit mine better now I have shown you Qoran uses another word for sunset?
So now we come to this, quote
In any case, it doesn't really matter what meaning one picks for "duluk" from the options, the point of the article is really simple, what matters is can the timings be made to work which respects the Arabic, logic, practicality and when cross-referenced with other verses (i.e. coherence). Since you seem extremely reluctant to detail what your timings system is we cannot compare/test it and see what happens.For me It works perfectly and is consistent with the verses . more importantly there is complete logic and coherence with the way I explained verse 1778 to mean the noon salat from Qoran s language and use of words.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I also need to answer this, quote
Thanks for clarifying. You could have avoided having to clarify by simply answering what I asked you previously, so let me ask you again Quran says do salat X ila/to Y. Do you do one salat from X (which you take as noon) to Y (which you take as "ghasaq al layl", which is currently approx. 7hrs in the UK where you reside? Yes/No.No. The verse is stating do this one salat at the point/start of the duluk,which ends at ghasaki al lay. Not do the salat from the decline to ghasaki alaleyl. This is to identify the point clearly as the start of the decline that ends at ghasaki al leyl as there are many points in the decline of the sun from the highest point..
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace GL,
You have refuted yourself. In 1886 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".
Next, you claim for 1778 when Quran says do X li A ila/to B, it means do X at/from A. Evidence from Quran please.
Of course your timing for this salat has no time-range and you will have to clarify if you only do one salat during this time-range of zenith to dark night.For me It works perfectly and is consistent with the verses...
Of course it "works perfectly and is consistent" to you since we have no idea what your timings are so we cannot compare/test it.
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Peace Wakas.
Are you saying here "Taghrubu is not setting? What is it then? The arabic expression is "he found it setting"
What about the other "Kabla "Ghurubiha" is this not after sunset
Can you see that the same verb is used in both?As for this, quote
"Next, you claim for 1778 when Quran says do X li A ila/to B, it means do X at/from A. Evidence from Quran please.
Of course your timing for this salat has no time-range and you will have to clarify if you only do one salat during this time-range of zenith to dark night."It is you who is illogical look I explain
1778 says do X at A that goes towards B. A is the time range Noon . Usually similar to lunchtime/sieta...etc.If you take it like you say from the decline to Ghasaki Al Leyl, then it means this salat starts at A and finishes at B a very long salat.
This means that your salat timing starts at sunset and finishes at total dakness ?In that case it means the verse is saying Aquimi the salat continuously from A to B (the lenght of this salat), ? Not true or possible.
Where did you see similar instructions of other salat in Qoran?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Wakas .
Just to clarify "Kabla Ghurubiha is before sunset.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Wakas.
You say here, quote
You have refuted yourself. In 1886 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".My simple answer to you is this
1817
You could see the sun when it rose coming from the right side of their cave, and when it set, it was coming on them from the left, as they slept in the hollow thereof. This is one of God's portents.* Whomever God guides is the truly guided one, and whomever He sends astray, you will not find for him a guiding teacher.
وَتَرَى الشَّمسَ إِذا طَلَعَت تَزٰوَرُ عَن كَهفِهِم ذاتَ اليَمينِ وَإِذا غَرَبَت تَقرِضُهُم ذاتَ الشِّمالِ وَهُم فى فَجوَةٍ مِنهُ ذٰلِكَ مِن ءايٰتِ اللَّهِ مَن يَهدِ اللَّهُ فَهُوَ المُهتَدِ وَمَن يُضلِل فَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُ وَلِيًّا مُرشِدًاIs Gharabat not clear that it is the sun set?
The same verb brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salam!
See my translation as follows
فَاصبِر عَلىٰ ما يَقولونَ
Thus/so/therefore be patient upon what they are saying/asking
وَسَبِّح بِحَمدِ رَبِّكَ
And glorify your Lord with praise
قَبلَ طُلوعِ الشَّمسِ
Before rise (of) the Sun
وَقَبلَ غُروبِها
And before its setting
وَمِن ءانائِ الَّيلِ
And from hours/watches (of) the night
فَسَبِّح
Thus/so/therefore glorify
وَأَطرافَ النَّهارِ
While edges/ends (of) the day
لَعَلَّكَ تَرضىٰ
So that you may get pleasedQuran consistently repeats two times by using the words سحر، فجر، غدو, بکر for early morning and مسو، اصال، اصیلا،عشیا for afternoon/evening. While the night prayer is نافلۃ.
Why do you think that Quran is not consistent in its message?
Peace!
