New article: salat timings as per The Quran
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peace all,
The regular/timed salat from The Quran how many and when?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.htmlThe Challenge
If you find an error/flaw in the above you will be eligible for $100 USD or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case. Please post any claimed flaws in this thread, thanks. Valid errors/flaws will be determined by the author.Peace...
Do you agree that chapter 629-11 is a Salat as well which is on a Congregation Day involving much business and notably amusement ?
My simple question is can you specifically name which Salat it is? You have only two salat as per your article Fajr and Isha... So without assumption can you precisely name the Salat of 629-11 with reasons in order for me to go futher?Further, 2238 your claim wusta is not salat.. Okay.. Then would. You pls let us know which singular Salat God is emphasisng to guard in that verse? Is it Isha OR Fajr and why? And how you judge it?
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peace GL,
I have no idea what timing system you're on about now but in addition to the issues I've pointed out, you say "salat is at noon" when Quran says noon is when one puts aside their garments and is a private time (according to how most interpret 245. I have already mentioned this in the article you have apparently read, point 20.
Why don't you just write a short article and create YOUR OWN thread for your timings view, so we can all put it to the test? Perhaps I'm asking too much.peace jkhan,
I have deployed this tactic of a monetary reward challenge before, e.g. here.
The reason is because this topic is one of the most discussed among those following Quran but poor quality discussion is still present. I should clarify, it is $100 per error/flaw. I have updated the article to make this clearer.
Also, it doesn't seem you have entered a competition before as it is almost always the case that the competition creator makes the rules and has the final say. If anyone doesn't like that, no problem, don't participate.Re 629
In my understanding it can refer to any timed-salat during a time of gathering, or the time of gathering (e.g. during al hajj/commemoration/homage) or perhaps even the market day (which was simply a day during the week when people/business gathered, which later came to be taken as Friday). You can read further here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387
https//web.archive.org/web/20080303232154/https//www.free-minds.org/articles/hadith/friday.htm
https//www.scribd.com/doc/37518569/CH-Becker-on-the-History-of-early-Muslim-Worship-and-Salat-PrayerRe 2238
Already discussed in the links given in the article, e.g. here. -
peace GL,
I have no idea what timing system you're on about now but in addition to the issues I've pointed out, you say "salat is at noon" when Quran says noon is when one puts aside their garments and is a private time (according to how most interpret 245. I have already mentioned this in the article you have apparently read, point 20.
Why don't you just write a short article and create YOUR OWN thread for your timings view, so we can all put it to the test? Perhaps I'm asking too much.peace jkhan,
I have deployed this tactic of a monetary reward challenge before, e.g. here.
The reason is because this topic is one of the most discussed among those following Quran but poor quality discussion is still present. I should clarify, it is $100 per error/flaw. I have updated the article to make this clearer.
Also, it doesn't seem you have entered a competition before as it is almost always the case that the competition creator makes the rules and has the final say. If anyone doesn't like that, no problem, don't participate.Re 629
In my understanding it can refer to any timed-salat during a time of gathering, or the time of gathering (e.g. during al hajj/commemoration/homage) or perhaps even the market day (which was simply a day during the week when people/business gathered, which later came to be taken as Friday). You can read further here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.msg96387#msg96387
https//web.archive.org/web/20080303232154/https//www.free-minds.org/articles/hadith/friday.htm
https//www.scribd.com/doc/37518569/CH-Becker-on-the-History-of-early-Muslim-Worship-and-Salat-PrayerRe 2238
Already discussed in the links given in the article, e.g. here.Peace...
That's cool offer for every error... Every error of whose? Lol..No I have never participated something like this which is connected with Quran and that also on a concerned and a heated topic...
629-11.. I never mentioned Friday prayer (whatever the day it doesn't matter) but on a DAY THE Gathering and not Days.. Haj is of course not a single day which repeats... The verse is much appropriate for a single day which repeats monthly or weakly etc. God didn't say Days of gatherings. You are very specific of singular and plural as well Arabic AL when it comes to Salat.. . Right? So be consistent..
2238 ... I don't see the answer to my specific question in your link.. Would you pls answer by reading my question correctly.. If you have no time fine..
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Peace Wakas.
You say, quote
peace GL,
I have no idea what timing system you're on about now but in addition to the issues I've pointed out, you say "salat is at noon" when Quran says noon is when one puts aside their garments and is a private time (according to how most interpret 245. I have already mentioned this in the article you have apparently read, point 20.
Why don't you just write a short article and create YOUR OWN thread for your timings view, so we can all put it to the test? Perhaps I'm asking too much.So first let clear the timing I mean
I say Duluk Al Shams starts when the sun starts to decline from the sky i.e at Noon.Then it finishes at "Ghasaki Al Leyl like the verse stated in 1778.
Therefore 1778 is saying to us Aquimi Salat ( Yes one salat) at the decline point, when the sun starts to decline from the sky ( Noon salat) ,that decline carries on till Ghasaki Al Leyl.(Minimum point of the decline) before it starts going up towards fajr and Nahar.
The sun has a maximum and a minimum. The timing in 1778 is exact to when the sun starts the decline from the maximum height.
Is this clear for you?
You say "Duluk a Shams" is sunset. At sunset the sun has already declined a lot.Why choose this particular decline? bring from Qoran where "Duluk Al Shams" means sunset. In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams" ...Kabla Ghurubiha.
If 1778 is saying at the decline, the most logical way is the start of the decline. Hence my timing makes more sense than yours.Remember you are asking to find errors in your work.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace...
That's cool offer for every error... Every error of whose? Lol..No I have never participated something like this which is connected with Quran and that also on a concerned and a heated topic...
629-11.. I never mentioned Friday prayer (whatever the day it doesn't matter) but on a DAY THE Gathering and not Days.. Haj is of course not a single day which repeats... The verse is much appropriate for a single day which repeats monthly or weakly etc. God didn't say Days of gatherings. You are very specific of singular and plural as well Arabic AL when it comes to Salat.. . Right? So be consistent..
2238 ... I don't see the answer to my specific question in your link.. Would you pls answer by reading my question correctly.. If you have no time fine..
Further.. I missed one point relevant to 629-11... You didn't give any priority in your reply to AMUSEMENT.. .. You are trying to turn this as fundamentally as Haj, so why AMUSEMENT should be part of Haj... Is it allowed
..okay business in a way... But why amusement... It should be common to any gathering ... -
The regular/timed salat from The Quran how many and when?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.htmlpeace jkhan,
You claim the one option I gave for "the day of gathering" / "a day of gathering" referring to "al hajj" cannot be since that is over a few days. Well your objection is refuted by 93 which uses ""yawma al-haji al-akbari".
I cannot be certain what "yawmi al-juamati" refers to in 629 (and I have never seen anyone make a solid case for one understanding over others, hence why I provided several options) but my point was no matter which you choose it works perfectly well with the article posted in this thread.
Why are you asking me if "amusement/distraction/sport" is allowed in "al hajj" or not, haven't you got a Quran? Show me the verse which says this is not allowed in "al hajj" then we can talk more. I hate to state the obvious but I should point out 629 referring to "al hajj" was simply one option I provided.Re 2238
If a person does not understand something, I recommend re-reading, even if it means re-reading several times. Let me simplify further 2239 refers to the previous verse which mentions upholding the most excellent/balanced salat, and that is obviously the one connected to God / God's system, i.e. the timed-salat. So 2239 is referring to whenever one upholds the timed-salat, it does not matter which one. It's like 56 when it says wash before you observe the timed-salat, it doesn't say which specific salat, it is referring to any timed-salat.peace GL,
Thanks for clarifying. You could have avoided having to clarify by simply answering what I asked you previously, so let me ask you again Quran says do salat X ila/to Y. Do you do one salat from X (which you take as noon) to Y (which you take as "ghasaq al layl", which is currently approx. 7hrs in the UK where you reside? Yes/No.Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, now you say "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams". Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, provide the proof showing it can only mean what you claim it means.
You now say "bring from Qoran where "Duluk Al Shams" means sunset." when I could easily say YOU bring me proof from Quran where it means decline from its zenith? You as well as I know it only occurs once. My argument is painfully simple I have interpreted the verses in such a way that provides the utmost logic, coherence and practicality and have challenged anyone to find a flaw/error. Since we have no idea what your timing system is we cannot compare and see what results.
You then say "If 1778 is saying at the decline, the most logical way is the start of the decline. Hence my timing makes more sense than yours.". You seem to be fixated on "duluk" meaning decline, so tell us, do Classical Arabic dictionaries only mention "decline" as its meaning? Yes/No.
From PRL http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.In any case, it doesn't really matter what meaning one picks for "duluk" from the options, the point of the article is really simple, what matters is can the timings be made to work which respects the Arabic, logic, practicality and when cross-referenced with other verses (i.e. coherence). Since you seem extremely reluctant to detail what your timings system is we cannot compare/test it and see what happens.
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Peace Wakas.
About this, quote
"Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, now you say "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams". Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, provide the proof showing it can only mean what you claim it means."From Qoran
1886
When he reached the far west, he found the sun setting in a vast ocean, and found people there. We said, "O Zul-Qarnain, you can rule as you wish; either punish, or be kind to them."
حَتّىٰ إِذا بَلَغَ مَغرِبَ الشَّمسِ وَجَدَها تَغرُبُ فى عَينٍ حَمِئَةٍ وَوَجَدَ عِندَها قَومًا قُلنا يٰذَا القَرنَينِ إِمّا أَن تُعَذِّبَ وَإِمّا أَن تَتَّخِذَ فيهِم حُسنًاAl Shams Taghrubu, from the verb "Gharaba" . The noun "Maghrib"
I do not see the verb "Tadluku/ dalakat..." - the noun "Duluk"
Likewise here
20130
Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.
فَاصبِر عَلىٰ ما يَقولونَ وَسَبِّح بِحَمدِ رَبِّكَ قَبلَ طُلوعِ الشَّمسِ وَقَبلَ غُروبِها وَمِن ءانائِ الَّيلِ فَسَبِّح وَأَطرافَ النَّهارِ لَعَلَّكَ تَرضىٰ
The word "Ghurubiha" from Gharaba-noun ,Maghrib.
There is more evidence of "Gharb , Gharabat, Ghurub Al Ashms meaning for sunset than "Duluk Al Shams" as sunset in Qoran.Therefore when you sa ,quote
= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.You have also given decline,sinking, incline downwards as meaning .Does this not fit mine better now I have shown you Qoran uses another word for sunset?
So now we come to this, quote
In any case, it doesn't really matter what meaning one picks for "duluk" from the options, the point of the article is really simple, what matters is can the timings be made to work which respects the Arabic, logic, practicality and when cross-referenced with other verses (i.e. coherence). Since you seem extremely reluctant to detail what your timings system is we cannot compare/test it and see what happens.For me It works perfectly and is consistent with the verses . more importantly there is complete logic and coherence with the way I explained verse 1778 to mean the noon salat from Qoran s language and use of words.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
I also need to answer this, quote
Thanks for clarifying. You could have avoided having to clarify by simply answering what I asked you previously, so let me ask you again Quran says do salat X ila/to Y. Do you do one salat from X (which you take as noon) to Y (which you take as "ghasaq al layl", which is currently approx. 7hrs in the UK where you reside? Yes/No.No. The verse is stating do this one salat at the point/start of the duluk,which ends at ghasaki al lay. Not do the salat from the decline to ghasaki alaleyl. This is to identify the point clearly as the start of the decline that ends at ghasaki al leyl as there are many points in the decline of the sun from the highest point..
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace GL,
You have refuted yourself. In 1886 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".
Next, you claim for 1778 when Quran says do X li A ila/to B, it means do X at/from A. Evidence from Quran please.
Of course your timing for this salat has no time-range and you will have to clarify if you only do one salat during this time-range of zenith to dark night.For me It works perfectly and is consistent with the verses...
Of course it "works perfectly and is consistent" to you since we have no idea what your timings are so we cannot compare/test it.
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Peace Wakas.
Are you saying here "Taghrubu is not setting? What is it then? The arabic expression is "he found it setting"
What about the other "Kabla "Ghurubiha" is this not after sunset
Can you see that the same verb is used in both?As for this, quote
"Next, you claim for 1778 when Quran says do X li A ila/to B, it means do X at/from A. Evidence from Quran please.
Of course your timing for this salat has no time-range and you will have to clarify if you only do one salat during this time-range of zenith to dark night."It is you who is illogical look I explain
1778 says do X at A that goes towards B. A is the time range Noon . Usually similar to lunchtime/sieta...etc.If you take it like you say from the decline to Ghasaki Al Leyl, then it means this salat starts at A and finishes at B a very long salat.
This means that your salat timing starts at sunset and finishes at total dakness ?In that case it means the verse is saying Aquimi the salat continuously from A to B (the lenght of this salat), ? Not true or possible.
Where did you see similar instructions of other salat in Qoran?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Wakas .
Just to clarify "Kabla Ghurubiha is before sunset.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Wakas.
You say here, quote
You have refuted yourself. In 1886 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".My simple answer to you is this
1817
You could see the sun when it rose coming from the right side of their cave, and when it set, it was coming on them from the left, as they slept in the hollow thereof. This is one of God's portents.* Whomever God guides is the truly guided one, and whomever He sends astray, you will not find for him a guiding teacher.
وَتَرَى الشَّمسَ إِذا طَلَعَت تَزٰوَرُ عَن كَهفِهِم ذاتَ اليَمينِ وَإِذا غَرَبَت تَقرِضُهُم ذاتَ الشِّمالِ وَهُم فى فَجوَةٍ مِنهُ ذٰلِكَ مِن ءايٰتِ اللَّهِ مَن يَهدِ اللَّهُ فَهُوَ المُهتَدِ وَمَن يُضلِل فَلَن تَجِدَ لَهُ وَلِيًّا مُرشِدًاIs Gharabat not clear that it is the sun set?
The same verb brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salam!
See my translation as follows
فَاصبِر عَلىٰ ما يَقولونَ
Thus/so/therefore be patient upon what they are saying/asking
وَسَبِّح بِحَمدِ رَبِّكَ
And glorify your Lord with praise
قَبلَ طُلوعِ الشَّمسِ
Before rise (of) the Sun
وَقَبلَ غُروبِها
And before its setting
وَمِن ءانائِ الَّيلِ
And from hours/watches (of) the night
فَسَبِّح
Thus/so/therefore glorify
وَأَطرافَ النَّهارِ
While edges/ends (of) the day
لَعَلَّكَ تَرضىٰ
So that you may get pleasedQuran consistently repeats two times by using the words سحر، فجر، غدو, بکر for early morning and مسو، اصال، اصیلا،عشیا for afternoon/evening. While the night prayer is نافلۃ.
Why do you think that Quran is not consistent in its message?
Peace!
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The regular/timed salat from The Quran how many and when?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.htmlpeace jkhan,
You claim the one option I gave for "the day of gathering" / "a day of gathering" referring to "al hajj" cannot be since that is over a few days. Well your objection is refuted by 93 which uses ""yawma al-haji al-akbari".
I cannot be certain what "yawmi al-juamati" refers to in 629 (and I have never seen anyone make a solid case for one understanding over others, hence why I provided several options) but my point was no matter which you choose it works perfectly well with the article posted in this thread.
Why are you asking me if "amusement/distraction/sport" is allowed in "al hajj" or not, haven't you got a Quran? Show me the verse which says this is not allowed in "al hajj" then we can talk more. I hate to state the obvious but I should point out 629 referring to "al hajj" was simply one option I provided.Re 2238
If a person does not understand something, I recommend re-reading, even if it means re-reading several times. Let me simplify further 2239 refers to the previous verse which mentions upholding the most excellent/balanced salat, and that is obviously the one connected to God / God's system, i.e. the timed-salat. So 2239 is referring to whenever one upholds the timed-salat, it does not matter which one. It's like 56 when it says wash before you observe the timed-salat, it doesn't say which specific salat, it is referring to any timed-salat.peace GL,
Thanks for clarifying. You could have avoided having to clarify by simply answering what I asked you previously, so let me ask you again Quran says do salat X ila/to Y. Do you do one salat from X (which you take as noon) to Y (which you take as "ghasaq al layl", which is currently approx. 7hrs in the UK where you reside? Yes/No.Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, now you say "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams". Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, provide the proof showing it can only mean what you claim it means.
You now say "bring from Qoran where "Duluk Al Shams" means sunset." when I could easily say YOU bring me proof from Quran where it means decline from its zenith? You as well as I know it only occurs once. My argument is painfully simple I have interpreted the verses in such a way that provides the utmost logic, coherence and practicality and have challenged anyone to find a flaw/error. Since we have no idea what your timing system is we cannot compare and see what results.
You then say "If 1778 is saying at the decline, the most logical way is the start of the decline. Hence my timing makes more sense than yours.". You seem to be fixated on "duluk" meaning decline, so tell us, do Classical Arabic dictionaries only mention "decline" as its meaning? Yes/No.
From PRL http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Dal-Lam-Kaf = rubbing, squeezing, pressing, decline, sinking, become red, set, incline downwards from the meridian (sun). The phrase "duluk-as-shams" defined as "sunset" / setting of the sun / the sun became high, by Lane.In any case, it doesn't really matter what meaning one picks for "duluk" from the options, the point of the article is really simple, what matters is can the timings be made to work which respects the Arabic, logic, practicality and when cross-referenced with other verses (i.e. coherence). Since you seem extremely reluctant to detail what your timings system is we cannot compare/test it and see what happens.
Peace...
I do apologize for asking as a question... Thought you would consider in more apt way since your and our aim is to find out the errors.. But you discarded saying "Don't you have a quran".. Fine... Let's hope that's your nature.. .. But naturally amusement do take place in a fair / market taking into consideration the time the Quran was revealed... I have never read in Quran amusement was part of haj and for what purpose the amusement / sport needed where basically debate, dead people reminded and remembrance of God is taking place... It's not meant for fun... Naturally looking at the content of Haj amusement cannot be part of Haj (God allowed or not is not the key)... But does it befit? But here amusement is stated and it does befit within a weakly etc fair or market.. Why can't we perceive what suits to occasion... That's my point..The verse 629-12 not sound like Haj at all... Look at the cream and the essence in the verse...
- people at business and asked to leave them (never stated to leave any Haj rituals and rush for Salat)
- And again once the salat is over. it never sounds like go and do what's relevant to haj, but go do business again. that's so unlikely the instructions if Haj is also meant by this verse...
- And the people who came to Haj and called for Salat can most probably be submitters / believers in order to come and perform Salat.. Then why they should leave Salat and rush for amusement almost all of them... Is amusement is so important during haj being believers... Leaving the messenger standing....
God restricted certain things during Haj which is more or less without knowledge people may do, and God doesn't need to restrict mostly what people hardly practice during haj.. That's amusement..
The greater day of Haj is one of the days of haj.. Greater day cannot be the only day of haj.. Haj is more than one day act..
But 629-11 specify ONLY ONE DAY..
2238 ..still you are not ready to ponder what others say and remain eccentric on your view.. Fine.. But look for possibilities..
Here salawat and together with Salat wusta mentioned.. That's definitely unnecessary to mention wusta... If wusta is not a salat that needs emphasisng...
For example God used. 2309 same word salawat and they are believers who guard salawat and successful... Notably, there is no wusta... So if can be stated without wusta one place and Guard salawat why mention wusta in 2238?Coz it has a difference.. "Guard the prayers and the middle salat"... That's the most vulnerable Salat which can be missed coz of business and hustle and bustle of busy day time ..needs extra emphasisng to guard it..
But in 239 it is not required.. Coz God is talking about those who guarded believers who guarded Fajr, Wusta, Isha...
Subsequently, I deduce there is no reason to put an additional word in 2238 after saying Guard Salawat and salat wusta.. Guard salwar is more than enough as of 239 ...
Difference is..
239 is the one who is successful believers..
2238 is instructions to become successful... -
In 2458 you say only two salat is mentiones so tw is appropriate...
Do you think it is really necessary to say middle salat in that verse..
Perfectly alright Salat Fajr and Isha coz they are the perfect timong of privacy... Coz timing for Salat isha and Fajr is so limited.. Do you agree? So mentioning after isha and before Fajr makes much sense...
But how would one say after or before middle prayer(wusta) since it has much longer period...Questions for you.. In case there is a Salat at midday from the time of sun decline from Meridian till darkness, then how would the verse 2458 should be placed?
Can the verse say after Wusta Salat or can it say before wusta Salat?If God said after wusta Salat... Then wusta Salat should be exactly when the sun declines from its peak.. That's not the time by verse 1778...that's manifestly long period... Let them sleep and pray OR pray and sleep.. Enough time.. But when they remove cloth at noon it is a privacy... There is no way to include the salat as landmark as of Fajr and isha.. Try to grasp...
Further what GL and tmtt is indicating of Guribath is perfect.. That I also indicated to its maximum in one of the similar topic, but you never considered... But you prefer to take 1778 as sunset only and leaving more convenient and proper and comparable meaning aside..
That's only your option taking as sun set, and it has nothing to convince other than your mere option.. Can you convince it is sunset... No way...
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peace GL,
Previously you said "maghrib al shams" means sunset in Arabic, then you said "In fact sunset in Qoran is described by "Ghurubi Al Shams", then went on to cite verses 1886, 20130, 1817 which do not contain that phrase. I will have to assume therefore you mean when "ghurub" is used referring to "shams" it means sunset.
I already showed the followingYou have refuted yourself. In 1886 the imperfect "taghrubu" is used, meaning an action incomplete or in the process of being done, and that is why the verse says "he found it setting IN a muddy spring" clearly showing it had not set yet, thus it cannot mean "sunset".
You then cited 1817 so let's take a closer look
"And you may have seen the sun when it rose inclining away from their cave to the right AND when it GhRBat passing away (from) them to the left..."
- underlined words are perfect verbs
- the verse states it would have possible to see what occurred to the sun
- GhRBat is in the perfect tense BUT "passing away" (taqridu) is in the imperfect (i.e. an action incomplete or in the process of being done). Similarly "inclining away" is imperfect.
According to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?
Tell us why it cannot mean these
From http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Ghayn-Ra-Ba = went/passed away, depart/retire/remove/disappear, become remote/distant/absent/hidden/black, withdraw, western, foreign/strange, exceed, abundance, sharpness, (maghrib = sunset), black, raven-black, setting place of the sun, the west.When I said
Next, you claim for 1778 when Quran says do X li A ila/to B, it means do X at/from A. Evidence from Quran please.
I thought I was being clear. If you have no other examples from Quran which proves how you interpret it is possible then just say so. It is not an easy thing to research so it is understandable if you are not aware of corroborating examples.
The reason I asked this
Of course your timing for this salat has no time-range and you will have to clarify if you only do one salat during this time-range of zenith to dark night.
Because you previously said this. Readers will also note the baseless claim made by GL regarding preposition "Li".
Since I/we have no idea what his timings system is we cannot compare/test it.You claim the salat time I am referring to in the evening would be "very long" and "not true or possible" when according to this website the timeframe would be approx 34-75mins for London UK. It will depend of course on which twilight one is referring to but going by 2187 it seems whiteness in the sky is a good indicator of twilight so that would be till end of civil twilight in this case giving 34mins. Doesn't seem "very long" to me.
peace TMTT,
I'm not sure what point you are making. Please clarify.peace jkhan,
I never saw any highlighting of a flaw/error in my article in your replies. Quran says no sex/wrongdoing/quarreling for those undertaking al hajj . If you want to claim there is also no amusement/sport/distraction then go ahead. Bear in mind not everyone in the locality will be undertaking al hajj.
Also I will give you a good example, when I have visited some bazaars, some sellers, e.g. of ice cream, will put on a show as an amusement/advertisement in order to attract watching people, so they are hopefully enticed to also buy ice cream. Under your made-up claims this may not be allowed. You need to consider the practicality of what you're suggesting.And in case you are still confused, here are the type of errors/flaws/problems I am looking for
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610966.msg428541#msg428541 -
Salam Everyone,
While it is good that this issue, one that has been discussed many many times before, without any agreement or conclusion, is being brought up again so that it can be finalized and concluded and agreed by all.
But, I feel that before discussing its timing, don't you think that it is better to agree to get the definition, meaning and objectives of Solat first.
Once this is agreed then the discussion of its timing will have meaning.
We can start on with Bro Wakas article on Salat.
Just my two cent contribution Guys.
Salam.
-
Peace Wakas.
Let us first cklear "Maghrib, Gharabat, Ghurub Al Shams... and its derivatives.Not one of them relates to "DULUK" do you agree ?. and they describe when the sun sets,disappear...
What is sunset according to you? Does one see sunset when the sun has just set/disappeared, the clear glow in the sky?
Then you have no grounds with this, quoteAccording to you GhRBat means sunset so how is it possible to see it passing away from them to the left after it is below the horizon?
So here is my request to you
Provide evidence from Qoran that Duluk Al Shams is sunset?
All you have done is choose a meaning from lexicon that fits your view.
Remember you are clearly claiming this ,not me.
If you do not,, your work cannot be without error/s 100%.Second You claim sunset to Ghasaki Al Leyl is a time frame,How do you deduce it is a time frame and not the lenght of the single salat?
You say Li/At or from To Ghasaki Al Leyl is not the lenght of the salat, yet if the instruction is from...to it can only mean continuous?Otherwise the instruction would be Bayna Duluk ...Ila Ghasaki Al Leyl. i.e between Duluk and Ghasaki...This is a time frame not what you claim.
I am going to summarize here for you and the reader to show your errors in translating 17781- No evidence from Qoran that Duluk Al Shams is sunset, even though Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set...
2- No evidence that "at-to" or "from -to" means time frame and not one continuous salat of the whole lenght of time.
I explained my view , However ,regardless of any other view,I am highlighting the errors in your translation which is what you are asking the readers to do.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace GL,
I am using the dictionary definition of "sunset" which refers to when the sun disc is fully below the horizon.Thanks for making things clearer for readers
GL first said "maghrib al shams" means "sunset".
I provided evidence that "maghrib" actually means setting time/place.
GL then said "ghurub al shams" describes "sunset" and cited no verse where this phrase occurs (so we can only assume he means when "ghurub" refers to "shams" it means "sunset", so he cited 1886, 20130.
I refuted his claim regarding 1886.
GL had no direct response and then cited 1817.
I analysed 1817 and asked him a simple question how his view can work with this verse.
GL completely avoids answering and then subtly changes his view to "Qoran clearly uses another word for sun setting, To set, will set, has set..."
Note how he doesn't say "sunset"! i.e. his claim now is this word describes the process of setting not only "sunset"Readers will also note GL completely avoids answering my question on how he has seemingly changed his timings and his baseless claim about preposition "li". I wonder why that is.
I do not understand your point about timeframe and length of salat. I clearly and unequivocally state what the timeframe/length is for each salat. In fact, I have no idea how anyone can be confused after reading what I wrote in the article, quote "To clarify this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight)."
Or to put it in your language, yes it's continuous. Although in the real world it would be flexible, e.g. if someone wants to do a little more/less etc it's not a problem as per Quran, which I discuss in the articles. Readers must pay attention to the ONLY plural address verse that uses salat and a timing component and that is 2458, which says morning/dawn and evening/dusk, i.e. it gives no time-range/length. The time-ranges in Quran are exemplars. I think I will make this point clearer in my article. -
Peace Wakas.
You have no evidence from Qoran that duluk Al Shams is sunset, or after sunset,Hence it is on you to bring the evidence from Qoran.
Or do you want us to take your view for it as accurate?What is sunset in Arabic, Let us ask everyone (Who knows Arabic) this question to see who is right? You are not accepting Qoran.
The Salat at sunset ( i.e just after sunset) like you claim is called Maghrib salat by all Muslims. Nowhere do I see or hear Duluk salat.
You are now dodging the question of evidence .You say, quote
Readers will also note GL completely avoids answering my question on how he has seemingly changed his timings and his baseless claim about preposition "li". I wonder why that is.I have given you the following explanation for time frame, in fact I will give you my translation of 1778
"Aquimi the salat at the point(start) of decline of the sun(Atnoon), the decline that goes towards ghasaki al leyland...."
This salat is the noon salat and itstime frame is the noon time. i.e lunchtime,siesta time...-Known worlwide .Your explanation of time frame cannot mean time frame it can only mean the whole time from sunset to ghasaki al leyl according to the Arabic you have chosen as at-to or from to.. If you say it is up to the individual how long they take, bring evidence from Qoran and identify clearly what is the salat in details to see why it should take that long. Or are you saying GOD is not clear?
Now concentrate on bringing evidence from Qoran for
1- duluk Al Shams is sunset.
2- Time frame clarification .
GOD bless you.
Peace.
