Muhammad(s) was from????Mecaa/Petra/Palestine??
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many thanks for your clear explanation indeed.
I have a couple of subqueries
You mentioned the code19. Has this concept been certified in a literal sense by any scientific organization or independent institute?
It could be an interpretation like others, could be right could be not right? Because those who advocate such claims also says some suras have been falsely added into the quran?
I am not intending to start a discussion on this as it needs a separate thread but you sounded like this Quran code 19 is the only reason which proves the source is from god and discard the various verses which challenge the intellect of humans to think and ponder about various aspects and then based on those come to the conclusion that this book could not come from except from the creator of all.What is your opinion about it? because the miracle is to be in the message for the guidance of all mankind and not in some numbers? even if it follows a sequence? so what? the authenticity of the book being from a divine source should be in the message itself? tomorrow if some else claim another number 79 in another large book?
thanks
Hi Fusion,
'Waraqa ibn Nawfal' is what is termed 'an embarrassment' in the field of literary analysis, precisely for the reasons that the replies to my post have built in to them - the accusation that the revelations are being assisted by a knowledgeable person. Waraqa is the 'smoking gun' for those who attack the legitimacy of the revelations as being of Divine origin in this way.
Waraqa is mentioned in the 'hadith' narrations, but these are almost certainly for the purpose of 'apologetics' in that while they mention that he was involved in the early assessment of the verity of the first revelations, he is quickly dismissed with a death that follows shortly after the consultation. They consult Waraqa, the cousin of the prophet's wife Hadija obviously based on his familiarity and knowledge regarding previous Scripture, and they mention that Waraqa says that he would have been of the supporters of the prophet had he seen the revelations in their completed form; but he is too old by then and as mentioned dies shortly after. A point that is important for the 'apologetic' reason the hadith exists imo.
It should be pointed out that 'embarrassing' narrations are more likely to have an element of truth as they would not exist at all if there were not a reason for them that overrides the embarrassment. So the problem remains for the hadith supporters. They cannot point to an unassailable objective reason as to why The Quran is of Divine origin, especially if they are unaware of the nineteen based mathematical proof available in our time.
The existence of the Waraqa hadith are thus attempts to help shut down the accusations of human assistance, which The Quran clearly mentions (as pointed out above) had been levelled at the prophet. The hadith mention that Waraqa died shortly after he consulted with the prophet, and therefore could not have helped him for the entire 23 years that is reported it took for The Quran to be revealed. The hadith if true does not change and in fact in that case proves that there was a Christ believer community where the prophet and his wife were located, which is the point I was making.
Let me be clear that I am not suggesting that Waraqa was real let alone involved at all; rather that the hadith which mention him and purport to protect the integrity of the prophet receiving unassisted revelation from The God, provide at the least, admission of knowledge that there was a Christ believer community that were close to the prophet and potentially receptive to the message of The Quran present at the time of its revelation.
Whether the prophet was previously a polytheist (he is again embarrassingly narrated as contributing animals for blood sacrifices at the 'Kaaba' and its idols in the time before he received the revelations), a 'hanif' (theories about the presence of a monotheistic group following the way of Abraham), or a Christ believer before his prophethood should make no difference whatsoever to our situation today. The prophet was an ordinary human and the message that he transmitted to humanity in the form of The Quran, a provable Divine revelation, and its decree of ultimate judgement of them by The God applies to all humans, whether they are atheists, polytheists, monotheists or Christ believers etc etc.
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We prefer to call it 'The Nineteen Sign' and I do not believe there is any 'official' endorsement of it by an organisation or institute.
The findings which Rashad Khalifa unveiled in 1974 through to his assassination in 1990 were the mere beginnings of a sign which has continued to emerge in more and more Quran metrics and findings. I have been posting since December on a thread on this forum which you can find here…
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611618.0
that introduces more of these signs that have emerged recently. The reason that it is important is that it provides for all humanity an opportunity to witness a true miracle that The God has placed into His revelations that thread all of them together, allowing a believer in The God (and not a club member of some sect who is fighting to defend their forefather's positions) to be certain that it is all pre-destined and set to emerge at an appointed time.
Mathematical findings transcend language and are as objective a way as one can be when examining things. The fact that the numbers all 'stack up' the way they do is simply astonishing. Please do have a look at the thread to see for yourself as no institution or organisation should ever do the thinking for you especially if you are blessed to be able to do it yourself.
Peace.
many thanks for your clear explanation indeed.
I have a couple of subqueries
You mentioned the code19. Has this concept been certified in a literal sense by any scientific organization or independent institute?
It could be an interpretation like others, could be right could be not right? Because those who advocate such claims also says some suras have been falsely added into the quran?
I am not intending to start a discussion on this as it needs a separate thread but you sounded like this Quran code 19 is the only reason which proves the source is from god and discard the various verses which challenge the intellect of humans to think and ponder about various aspects and then based on those come to the conclusion that this book could not come from except from the creator of all.What is your opinion about it? because the miracle is to be in the message for the guidance of all mankind and not in some numbers? even if it follows a sequence? so what? the authenticity of the book being from a divine source should be in the message itself? tomorrow if some else claim another number 79 in another large book?
thanks
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Peace GL,
Do you mind if we do a simple exercise to check what the author of Qoran is saying confirms your stand?
This will determine if what you say holds your argument about a "Jewish mindset" writing Qoran. like, quote"Now, I hold that the key to understand the correct meaning of Qur'an is to be found for its greatest part in the ancient Jewish thinking and tradition"
I will put forth verses for you to interpret for us according to your understanding,then I will put my understanding of the same verses. We will then see if your argument confirms or contradicts your point of view?
How would you know that, especially if you don't want to study the old Jewish tradition ?
But ok, let's go.Here are the verses I have chosen at random
Those two below will be enough to demonstrate my point.
Surah 45 Verses 2- 24
تَنزيلُ الكِتٰبِ مِنَ اللَّهِ العَزيزِ الحَكيمِ
(...)
وَاختِلٰفِ الَّيلِ وَالنَّهارِ وَما أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ مِنَ السَّماءِ مِن رِزقٍ فَأَحيا بِهِ الأَرضَ بَعدَ مَوتِها وَتَصريفِ الرِّيٰحِ ءايٰتٌ لِقَومٍ يَعقِلونَ
(...)
This is FM translation
452 The revelation of the Book is from God, the Noble, the Wise.
(...)
455 And the alternation of the night and the day, and what God sends down from the heaven of provisions to revive the land after its death, and the dispatching of the winds, are signs for a people who comprehend.In verse 452, the Arabic word for "revelation" is "tanzil" which comes from nazala (نَزَلَ).
The word itself conveys the meaning of something that drops.In verse 455, the Arabic word for "sends down" is anzala (أَنزَلَ), also coming from nazala (نَزَلَ). What God sends down from the heaven of provisions to revive the land after its death is rain (water).
(Note the use of form IV or form II to express the idea of sending down rain is not always consistent across Qur'an, sometimes it is form IV, sometimes form II, so I don't want to enter into considerations about forms).So the idea behind usage in Qur'an of the word nazala and its derivatives about the revelation of the Book is that the Book drops like rain.
The idea the God's Word is like rain and its effect on Earth belongs to the Jewish tradition.
It is already there in Deuteronomy 32.2 (https//biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-2.htm)Dt 32.2 May my teaching drop as the rain, my speech distill as the dew, like gentle rain upon the tender grass, and like showers upon the herb.
"My speech distill as the dew" the verb used in the Hebrew text is nazal (https//biblehub.com/hebrew/5140.htm) which is cognate to the word nazala in Arabic, with the same meaning to flow, trickle, drop, distill.
Since the word nazala (Arabic) and its derivatives is used hundred times in Qur'an, it means that Qur'an is largely permeated by the Jewish tradition.
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So you agree that it is GOD s words Anoushirvan? Quote
"The idea the God's Word is like rain and its effect on Earth belongs to the Jewish tradition.
It is already there in Deuteronomy 32.2 (https//biblehub.com/deuteronomy/32-2.htm)Dt 32.2 May my teaching drop as the rain, my speech distill as the dew, like gentle rain upon the tender grass, and like showers upon the herb.
"My speech distill as the dew" the verb used in the Hebrew text is nazal (https//biblehub.com/hebrew/5140.htm) which is cognate to the word nazala in Arabic, with the same meaning to flow, trickle, drop, distill."
So why your claim of "written by a Jewish mindset " before then? Or what is your point?
Or are you saying the Jews also had a scripture from GOD so they copied Qoran from it?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Sorry GL, but I don't understand your point at all and moreover you seem to have a strange way to twist my words.
What I have written above is clear and you are just quibbling in bad faith.
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Have I misquoted you brother?
Explain what is clear please.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Anoushirvan,
I am in agreement with the viewpoint of The Quran as having a linguistic style that is from a broader 'Semitic' scriptural archetype which is important for people to understand and acknowledge. It proves the continuity of the revelations and is inherent in the verse that mentions that the keepers of past scripture will recognise The Quran as being from the same source. This is especially so with the emergence of The Nineteen Sign which presents mathematical proof.
There is an antipathy towards earlier Scriptures by many so called 'muslims', brushing off and dismissing previous scriptures out of hand as 'corrupted' and unworthy of further study which is detrimental to the advancement of wider scriptural understanding.
While I would agree that the covenant and laws they contain are now lapsed, their contents still have validity for study of links and connections to The Quran. We have discovered extraordinary things in this respect and we are writing these up in a book which will be distributed gratis in perpetuity soon, The God willing.
I intend to write some of this up here shortly, The God willing on the thread I have been using here to introduce these ideas called 'The Nineteen Mirror Sign' that you can find if you are interested. There are quite interesting links with respect to the 'rain' concept that has been apparently 'randomly' selected in this thread.
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So who is the author of Qoran?
That is the main issue and point of my discussion with brother Anoushirvan.The style you talk about is obvious that GOD s words whether to Jews, Christians or any other communities of the past are consistent and have the same style. message and guidance of submission to Him Alone.
So of course there is similarity of style in all scriptures of GOD.GOD bless.
Peace. -
Have I misquoted you brother?
Explain what is clear please.
GOD bless you.
Peace.You take my words out of the context of my pitch, and you twist their meaning to make me say what I did not say.
This way of debate is to make turn in madness like in the schoolyard.
It's not the first time I notice that from you. Until then I haven't said anything, but now it's enough.You are free to disagree with me, but stop constantly seeking contradictions in my words, there isn't, and defend your own opinion instead.
Iyyakka kept disagreeing with me, but at least the exchange was interesting from my point of view. -
Peace Anoushirvan.
In that case I apologise to you.
I have no intention of upsetting you.
Please forgive me.
My understanding of Qoran s mindset and "Islam" is similar to this view in general.
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=coTKSH_YN7E
Thank you brother for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace,
Your questions and your statements are expressed ambiguously and you can probably surmise that I lean towards precision as a rule. Nevertheless I want to address your question as if it were sincere.
The answer is that you either know or you don't know, but only you can 'know' the answer to what you have asked.What I tell you makes no difference if you are unwilling to accept what I am writing.
The Quran was not transmitted to humanity as a written text. It was not a written book that fell to earth from the sky. It is not a revelation that was written down for the transmitting prophet but rather came to him as a recitation. Sounds which he heard or received into a brain that was ready, chosen, and equipped to decode the information into semantic concepts which were understood in the Arabic language. It was written down later as script with no dots and vowelling dashes. We only understand from it whatever we can, from whatever text has reached us.
So The Koran, as we have it today is a 'book' that arose from revealed concepts received by a human mind more than fourteen centuries ago. Despite this, its existence predates the creation of humanity and the human intellect that is now able to decode it. We can only understand it because of the process that The God has set in place that turned a Word into a universe, filled with particles and enrgy, that became stars and planets, and water with molecules, from which life emerged and humans arose from. Chapter 55, Al Rahman contains this miracle condensed in its first four verses.
Al Rahman
Taught The Koran
Created humankind
Taught them explication.The Koran precedes humans and in this sense the entire universe is 'The Koran' in that everything we witness is in a record clear, the 'Master Record' that The God has and is absolutely sovereign over. The book that we call The Koran is therefore information about sounds (which our ears can transmit), or which are able to be recorded as script (which our eyes can transmit), to a human brain that can be deciphered to teach us concepts necessary for our success in this universe and what comes after we all inevitably die.
It is a self contained representation of the concepts from the 'Master Record' that prove the existence of The God and which has all the information necessary for us to become, if we are sincere, guided by The God to be of those nearest.
Al Rahman, The All Capable. The Owner of Majesty and Bestower of Honour..
So who is the author of Qoran?
That is the main issue and point of my discussion with brother Anoushirvan.The style you talk about is obvious that GOD s words whether to Jews, Christians or any other communities of the past are consistent and have the same style. message and guidance of submission to Him Alone.
So of course there is similarity of style in all scriptures of GOD.GOD bless.
Peace. -
It is from the Lord of the universe.
I do not disagree with that.Besides everything created /existing predates /existed in a record and plan of the creator before it was created.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace,
I was not exactly talking about style, like tone or rhythm, but something else.
Qur'an, like any other argumentative text, has its own style and rhetoric.
Style is usually unique to an author or even to a text.There is no "Jewish style" when it comes to "write" a Scripture.
What I was talking above is the core concepts that Qur'an message leverages.
Those are indubitably mostly coming from the Jewish tradition and borrow to the Jewish way of teaching the divine will by using some kinds of parables, allegories, metaphors or wordplay based on phonic sliding.It is also important to note that various ancient Jewish authors, though having strong diverging views about the divine will, nevertheless used the same techniques.
So using the same kind of parable or allegory doesn't mean that the message is the same.
The authors quarreled with each other using the similar parables or allegories but with slight variations.
This is why you would find in Qur'an similar stories than in the Bible or apocryphal Scriptures, but not quite exactly the same. The differences reflect slightly diverging views between Qur'an and other Scriptures about their understanding of the divine will.
