what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?

Houriya

My choice changing from 1st to 2nd qiblah

Past time
“What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?”

future time
We will set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you almasjid alharam

that We may know who is following the messenger from those who will turn on their heels.

Wakas

My choice changing from 1st to 2nd qiblah

That is the most common position. You will note however you have re-ordered the information in the verses

Past time
“What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?”

future time
We will set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you almasjid alharam

that We may know who is following the messenger from those who will turn on their heels.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
I do nto see any "test" word in the verse?.
Or is every thing GOD asks/instruct a test?

To me GOD is saying it is something "big/difficult" to do, except for...

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

peace GL,

And what is the "it" in your "it is something "big/difficult"" ? (see poll question)

2143 And as such We have made you a balanced community so that you will be witnesses over the people, and the messenger will be a witness over you. And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels. And indeed it was certainly a great (thing/test) except for those whom God guided; And not was God to let go waste your belief. Indeed, God is over the people Fully-Kind and Merciful.

(Arabic bold is feminine pronoun, referring to a feminine noun, i.e. qiblah)

good_logic

Peace Wakas.

It can also be -The situation / the change- Why not? i.e the change of the focus point situation was a big /difficult thing for some, except those...
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

Both of you are mistaken. (Like I originally was, before I looked into it)

I have written a short article explaining it further, and also added it to the main article on "al masjid al haram".

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
If there was only one change, then what is your issue?
Do you mean there would have been a difficulty if there was no change?
I do not understand your point?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Houriya

Peace

Both of you are mistaken. (Like I originally was, before I looked into it)

I have written a short article explaining it further, and also added it to the main article on "al masjid al haram".

2143
And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you came on except that We may know who is following the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing / kabeeratan indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.

245
And seek help through patience and through the allegiance. It is a difficult thing / kabeeratun, but not so / except for the humble.

Kabeeratun / kabeeratan doesn’t mean a difficult thing. There are other words to say difficult for example in the following verse

2526
The true kingship on that Day will be to the Almighty. And it is a Day which will be very hard / ‘aseeran on the rejecters.

Kabeeratun / kabeeratan means great / very important for those whom God had guided (qibla) or for the humble (salat).

434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear rebellion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchambers, and withdraw from them; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great / kabeeran.

The change of qibla (new qibla) is not difficult but great / very important for the people whom God has guided.

..except that We may know who is following the messenger (new qiblat) from those who will turn on their heels (the previous qibla).

Peace

tutti_frutti

salam

my understanding is that the test is the change from the 1st qibla to the 2nd qibla

those who do not believe that prophet and messenger muhammed pbuh is a true prophet and messenger will not follow him with the change in qibla as ordered by The God

however, those who do believe that muhammed pbuh is indeed a messenger and prophet will follow the order form The God to change to the 2nd qibla

so the test is whether people will believe muhammed pbuh is indeed a prophet and messenger and whether he is saying the truth as ordered from The God

that is my understanding

peace

Wakas

peace GL,
I'm not sure what you're going on about. The article is short and clear.

peace Houriya,
Is part of your argument no two words can have the same (or similar) meaning? If so, I hope you appreciate this is a baseless theory until proven otherwise. You can see a previous discussion on this
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604103.msg302404#msg302404

The change of qibla (new qibla) is not difficult but great / very important for the people whom God has guided.

You refuted yourself when you cited 245. If we insert your view in there it fails

And seek help through patience and through the allegiance. It is a great / very important thing / kabeeratun, but not so / except for the humble.

In other words, the humble do not consider "seek help through patience and through the allegiance" an important thing!

peace tf,

Thanks for sharing your view however you did not address any of the problems I highlighted. Neither did Layth, neither did GL, neither did Houriya..... anyone else noticing a pattern?

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
You say you are asking a simple question, here,quote

"These verses discuss a change in "qiblah". My question is simple
what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?

It turns out you know the answer and no one else has a clue,at least according to you.

Why don t you summarise your understanding in few sentences, of the story of the verses, to clear the issue for us.
Or is your aim also a "test" for folks?

If your 1st Qiblah is one out 2, there there was only 1 change. Or is there many changes of Qiblahs?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Houriya

Peace Wakas,

You refuted yourself when you cited 245. If we insert your view in there it fails

And seek help through patience and through the allegiance. It is a great / very important thing / kabeeratun, but not so / except for the humble.

In other words, the humble do not consider "seek help through patience and through the allegiance" an important thing!

you understood the opposite of what I said.

Great / kabeeratun has the same meaning in the 2 verses about qibla and salat.

Great / very important for whom?

Except / illa specifies the people who are concerned by the sentence of before

Great / very important for those whom God had guided (qibla) and for the humble (salat).

The error comes from a misunderstanding of the word Except / illa

Salam

Wakas

It seems you do not even understand the word "illa". Each to their own.

amin

I think its a general verse that speaks of different communities following the different Qiblahs of their messengers, and Quran do agree to the way people followed different messengers at different times in the past.
So Christians and other communities following Jerusalem or the other sects following other places, so these Qiblas

which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels.

here the messenger refers to the past messengers then.

And indeed it was certainly a great (thing/test) except for those whom God guided; And not was God to let go waste your belief.

the guided ones follow, pleased by the messenger, for others its difficult.

Houriya

It seems you do not even understand the word "illa". Each to their own.

Illa doesn't mean except for this verse, illa = "only for those whom God had guide".

“But if you turn away, then I have not asked you for any wage, for my wage illa 'ala / is with God. And I have been commanded to be of those who have submitted.”

illa does not automatically mean except, it depends on the meaning of the preceding sentence.

139 The Knower of the unseen and the seen, the Great / alkabeer, the Most High.

kabeer / kabeeratun = great.

Wakas

amin, you never answered any of the problems in the article.

which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels.

here the messenger refers to the past messengers then.

Unfortunately for you the part you quoted is in the singular address, and "messenger" is singular also.

My preference is to have an understanding that fits the Arabic.

I find it interesting people can read a simple phrase "which thou were on it" and come up with all sorts of baseless/concocted ideas.

Mohammed_

salaam Wakas,

From your article
2) It is clear from 2144 that the change in qiblah (or the 2nd qiblah) will please the messenger.
Agree. The 2nd qiblah and hence the change in qiblah will please the messenger.

Therefore if you think that the change in qiblah was the difficult thing (as is traditionally discussed) then this will conflict with the messenger being pleased about it. Is he pleased for him (and his community) to undergo a great difficulty?

How this will conflict?
The Qur'an does not say that the prophet and his followers were in difficulty. The difficulty was Only for SOME PEOPLE.
It seems a group of people (among the community) opposed the change in qibla and these are the people verse 2143 is talking about
...And indeed it was certainly a great/difficult (thing) EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHOM GOD GUIDED;...

i.e. the difficulty was NOT for the prophet and his followers (because they were the guided ones!)

Wakas

peace,

How this will conflict?

Because it was a great/big (thing/difficulty) for the believers to experience except for those whom God guided, so yes a subset of them may not have found it a great/big (thing/difficulty) but that doesn't mean they never experienced it. It is confirmed they experienced it when it says " And not was God to let go waste your belief/faith/trust/conviction".

It seems a group of people (among the community) opposed the change in qibla and these are the people verse 2143 is talking about

The above is not in the Arabic. There is no talk of anyone opposing the change in qiblah. It will please the messenger and result in less/no argument. If anything, implies less opposition.

Mohammed_

it says " And not was God to let go waste your belief/faith/trust/conviction".

The believers weren't on the right qiblah(2nd qiblah) before. (hence God says "And not was God to let go waste your belief.&quot
When God's guidance came, they followed the prophet.

amin

This is what I understood,

2/142 says east or west doesn't matter,

2/143 brings in the reason why a Qibla in general came, the "messenger" can not be plural with reference to a community following a messenger's Qiblah,
here the verse addresses the then community following the messenger in general saying, you the just community are a good proof to other people and "your messenger" whoever is good proof for you.

we have not made the Qibla which you used to face (the past qiblah and even will be true for any qibla)
except, we make evident who would follow the messenger from who would turn back his heels, ( without following. )
And Indeed its difficult. to following the messenger except for ones whom Allah has not guided.....

2/144 Prophet Mohammed's Qibla change,
as "certainly seen the turning of your face, , toward the sky"

here Masjid-al-haram is referred the truth, as the sacredness of God cannot be negated by anyone, better than any other of His other signs.

2/150 As there will be never an argument against , as this Masjid-al-Haram, is a better sign, and other signs whatever be it, will bring in arguments like, why, what, how etc.