what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?
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peace GL,
I'm not sure what you're going on about. The article is short and clear.peace Houriya,
Is part of your argument no two words can have the same (or similar) meaning? If so, I hope you appreciate this is a baseless theory until proven otherwise. You can see a previous discussion on this
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604103.msg302404#msg302404The change of qibla (new qibla) is not difficult but great / very important for the people whom God has guided.
You refuted yourself when you cited 245. If we insert your view in there it fails
And seek help through patience and through the allegiance. It is a great / very important thing / kabeeratun, but not so / except for the humble.
In other words, the humble do not consider "seek help through patience and through the allegiance" an important thing!
peace tf,
Thanks for sharing your view however you did not address any of the problems I highlighted. Neither did Layth, neither did GL, neither did Houriya..... anyone else noticing a pattern?
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Peace Wakas.
You say you are asking a simple question, here,quote"These verses discuss a change in "qiblah". My question is simple
what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?It turns out you know the answer and no one else has a clue,at least according to you.
Why don t you summarise your understanding in few sentences, of the story of the verses, to clear the issue for us.
Or is your aim also a "test" for folks?If your 1st Qiblah is one out 2, there there was only 1 change. Or is there many changes of Qiblahs?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Wakas,
You refuted yourself when you cited 245. If we insert your view in there it fails
And seek help through patience and through the allegiance. It is a great / very important thing / kabeeratun, but not so / except for the humble.
In other words, the humble do not consider "seek help through patience and through the allegiance" an important thing!
you understood the opposite of what I said.
Great / kabeeratun has the same meaning in the 2 verses about qibla and salat.
Great / very important for whom?
Except / illa specifies the people who are concerned by the sentence of before
Great / very important for those whom God had guided (qibla) and for the humble (salat).
The error comes from a misunderstanding of the word Except / illa
Salam
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I think its a general verse that speaks of different communities following the different Qiblahs of their messengers, and Quran do agree to the way people followed different messengers at different times in the past.
So Christians and other communities following Jerusalem or the other sects following other places, so these Qiblaswhich thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels.
here the messenger refers to the past messengers then.
And indeed it was certainly a great (thing/test) except for those whom God guided; And not was God to let go waste your belief.
the guided ones follow, pleased by the messenger, for others its difficult.
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It seems you do not even understand the word "illa". Each to their own.
Illa doesn't mean except for this verse, illa = "only for those whom God had guide".
“But if you turn away, then I have not asked you for any wage, for my wage illa 'ala / is with God. And I have been commanded to be of those who have submitted.”
illa does not automatically mean except, it depends on the meaning of the preceding sentence.
139 The Knower of the unseen and the seen, the Great / alkabeer, the Most High.
kabeer / kabeeratun = great.
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amin, you never answered any of the problems in the article.
which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels.
here the messenger refers to the past messengers then.
Unfortunately for you the part you quoted is in the singular address, and "messenger" is singular also.
My preference is to have an understanding that fits the Arabic.
I find it interesting people can read a simple phrase "which thou were on it" and come up with all sorts of baseless/concocted ideas.
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salaam Wakas,
From your article
2) It is clear from 2144 that the change in qiblah (or the 2nd qiblah) will please the messenger.
Agree. The 2nd qiblah and hence the change in qiblah will please the messenger.Therefore if you think that the change in qiblah was the difficult thing (as is traditionally discussed) then this will conflict with the messenger being pleased about it. Is he pleased for him (and his community) to undergo a great difficulty?
How this will conflict?
The Qur'an does not say that the prophet and his followers were in difficulty. The difficulty was Only for SOME PEOPLE.
It seems a group of people (among the community) opposed the change in qibla and these are the people verse 2143 is talking about
...And indeed it was certainly a great/difficult (thing) EXCEPT FOR THOSE WHOM GOD GUIDED;...i.e. the difficulty was NOT for the prophet and his followers (because they were the guided ones!)
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peace,
How this will conflict?
Because it was a great/big (thing/difficulty) for the believers to experience except for those whom God guided, so yes a subset of them may not have found it a great/big (thing/difficulty) but that doesn't mean they never experienced it. It is confirmed they experienced it when it says " And not was God to let go waste your belief/faith/trust/conviction".
It seems a group of people (among the community) opposed the change in qibla and these are the people verse 2143 is talking about
The above is not in the Arabic. There is no talk of anyone opposing the change in qiblah. It will please the messenger and result in less/no argument. If anything, implies less opposition.
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it says " And not was God to let go waste your belief/faith/trust/conviction".
The believers weren't on the right qiblah(2nd qiblah) before. (hence God says "And not was God to let go waste your belief."
When God's guidance came, they followed the prophet. -
This is what I understood,
2/142 says east or west doesn't matter,
2/143 brings in the reason why a Qibla in general came, the "messenger" can not be plural with reference to a community following a messenger's Qiblah,
here the verse addresses the then community following the messenger in general saying, you the just community are a good proof to other people and "your messenger" whoever is good proof for you.we have not made the Qibla which you used to face (the past qiblah and even will be true for any qibla)
except, we make evident who would follow the messenger from who would turn back his heels, ( without following. )
And Indeed its difficult. to following the messenger except for ones whom Allah has not guided.....2/144 Prophet Mohammed's Qibla change,
as "certainly seen the turning of your face, , toward the sky"here Masjid-al-haram is referred the truth, as the sacredness of God cannot be negated by anyone, better than any other of His other signs.
2/150 As there will be never an argument against , as this Masjid-al-Haram, is a better sign, and other signs whatever be it, will bring in arguments like, why, what, how etc.
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peace,
The believers weren't on the right qiblah(2nd qiblah) before.
"right" is not a good choice of word. As in there is no "right" or "wrong" IF you were implying that.
"And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels."
It is abundantly clear that the correct response of the believers was to follow the messenger when he was on the 1st qiblah. It was a great/big (thing/test) but not for those whom God guided.
If you/anyone implies the 1st qiblah was the "wrong" one this will conflict with the part of 2143 I cited above, i.e. it will imply the correct response was to follow the messenger on a wrong qiblah.
we have not made the Qibla which you used to face (the past qiblah and even will be true for any qibla)
except, we make evident who would follow the messenger from who would turn back his heels, ( without following. )
And Indeed its difficult. to following the messenger except for ones whom Allah has not guided.....So you have changed your mind now? (to my view, which is being on the 1st/prior qiblah was the big/great (thing/test).
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Peace Wakas..
There is no indication to say that the first Qiblah was the one the prophet was on. He may have been instructed to a different one/chosen a different one to start with. But I agreed that this was the difficulty with some. They may have prefered the prophet to be on the one they were on in the first place..
I.e the one the prophet was one before he was refered back was the difficulty or test as you would call it.
After the referal back, there does not seem to be an issue for them.
GOD bless you.
Peace.. -
Peace Wakas.
The prophet was on a Qiblah, that tested /was difficult for others, but it must have been a different one from what the others knew/were on..
i.e not the first Qiblah they knew.It makes sense why the change after did not create a psroblem. This is what the context of the verses put together indicate to me.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Some things you say imply you're agreeing with me, and some things you say imply you're not.
2142 ......."What has turned them from the qiblah/focal-point which they were on it?.........
2143 ........And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it......... -
Peace Wakas.
Those"Sufaha from the people- are questioning the messenger s qiblah ,why do the believers follow the messenger s qiblah instead of the original/the one they knew before...
i.e why the change to this Qiblah that "Though were on it" instead of the one that some followers "were on it" before they followed..
Otherwise there would have been no difficulty or test like you put it.
My understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace,
it will imply the correct response was to follow the messenger on a wrong qiblah.
First of all don't forget the fact that guidance is a GRADUAL process, the whole Qur'an didn't reveal in a single day.
The prophet didn't born as a prophet /guided human, e.g. 937.If the first qiblah was the right one, why the prophet didn't please with that?
He knew some problems with their current qiblah, that's why it(qibla1) was not pleasing/ less pleasingAnd when God says "We made the qiblah" (جَعَلْنَا الْقِبْلَةَ)
do you think that the prophet /they were on the 1st qiblah because God ordered them to do so?
If it was by God's order, then why the prophet was not pleased being on that qiblah.in my understanding, "We made (جَعَلْنَا)" here means they were on the 1st qiblah because they choosed it by some reason (e.g. tradition/circumstances etc) and God made things so for some reason ("that We make evident he who follows the messenger...".
But the prophet knew some problems with their qiblah/ it was less pleasing/ not satisfying for him. -
Salam,
I will re-post my views here as the topic was discussed in another thread
- Qibla 1 (no issue, this was what the prophet was following)
- Qibla 2 (the reverse of Qibla-1, creates confusion, stress to the believers as well as makes non-believers question them)
- Qibla 3 (the restricted Temple, given to the Prophet after he showed discomfort with Qibla 2).
My personal view there should have been a return to Qibla 1 after the death of Mohammed (as Qibla 3 was given to him personally and would end with him),
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peace all,
It seems to me you are all dancing around the issue, avoiding addressing the problems the article raises.
Mohammed, if you're claiming "And We made..." refers to something not from God then at least provide evidence from Quran.
If it was by God's order, then why the prophet was not pleased being on that qiblah.
It's a decent question and traditional interpretations sometimes make reference to this with some variation in explanations. Almost all of which are not Quran based.
In my view, the answer is simple, Quran tells us why, it is because being on the 1st qiblah was a great/big (thing/test) ~difficulty, and obviously this is not a pleasant experience, doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just a struggle, hence the messenger was seeking guidance , a way forward, and he was given one, in my view in a very astute way. One of the results would be less/no argument from the people, which is obviously a more pleasant experience to have.
I discuss this in more detail in the article.Here is the take home message, even if you all dance around the issues raised in the article and come up with your own interpretation, ignoring the Arabic etc, the understanding presented in the article is the ONLY self-contained explanation as per Quran that I'm aware of. It doesn't really matter if one disagrees with it, the point is we potentially have self-contained explanations (or as good as) for verses 171, 177, 1760, 4827, 2142-150. I've personally never seen that before hence the challenge I set.
