what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?

amin

This is what I understood,

2/142 says east or west doesn't matter,

2/143 brings in the reason why a Qibla in general came, the "messenger" can not be plural with reference to a community following a messenger's Qiblah,
here the verse addresses the then community following the messenger in general saying, you the just community are a good proof to other people and "your messenger" whoever is good proof for you.

we have not made the Qibla which you used to face (the past qiblah and even will be true for any qibla)
except, we make evident who would follow the messenger from who would turn back his heels, ( without following. )
And Indeed its difficult. to following the messenger except for ones whom Allah has not guided.....

2/144 Prophet Mohammed's Qibla change,
as "certainly seen the turning of your face, , toward the sky"

here Masjid-al-haram is referred the truth, as the sacredness of God cannot be negated by anyone, better than any other of His other signs.

2/150 As there will be never an argument against , as this Masjid-al-Haram, is a better sign, and other signs whatever be it, will bring in arguments like, why, what, how etc.

Wakas

peace,

The believers weren't on the right qiblah(2nd qiblah) before.

"right" is not a good choice of word. As in there is no "right" or "wrong" IF you were implying that.

"And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it except that We make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels."

It is abundantly clear that the correct response of the believers was to follow the messenger when he was on the 1st qiblah. It was a great/big (thing/test) but not for those whom God guided.

If you/anyone implies the 1st qiblah was the "wrong" one this will conflict with the part of 2143 I cited above, i.e. it will imply the correct response was to follow the messenger on a wrong qiblah.

we have not made the Qibla which you used to face (the past qiblah and even will be true for any qibla)
except, we make evident who would follow the messenger from who would turn back his heels, ( without following. )
And Indeed its difficult. to following the messenger except for ones whom Allah has not guided.....

So you have changed your mind now? (to my view, which is being on the 1st/prior qiblah was the big/great (thing/test).

good_logic

Peace Wakas..
There is no indication to say that the first Qiblah was the one the prophet was on. He may have been instructed to a different one/chosen a different one to start with. But I agreed that this was the difficulty with some. They may have prefered the prophet to be on the one they were on in the first place..
I.e the one the prophet was one before he was refered back was the difficulty or test as you would call it.
After the referal back, there does not seem to be an issue for them.
GOD bless you.
Peace..

Wakas

There is no indication to say that the first Qiblah was the one the prophet was on.

...And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it...

Clearly, he was on it.

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
The prophet was on a Qiblah, that tested /was difficult for others, but it must have been a different one from what the others knew/were on..
i.e not the first Qiblah they knew.

It makes sense why the change after did not create a psroblem. This is what the context of the verses put together indicate to me.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

Some things you say imply you're agreeing with me, and some things you say imply you're not.

2142 ......."What has turned them from the qiblah/focal-point which they were on it?.........
2143 ........And not We made the qiblah/focal-point which thou were on it.........

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
Those"Sufaha from the people- are questioning the messenger s qiblah ,why do the believers follow the messenger s qiblah instead of the original/the one they knew before...
i.e why the change to this Qiblah that "Though were on it" instead of the one that some followers "were on it" before they followed..
Otherwise there would have been no difficulty or test like you put it.
My understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Mohammed_

peace,

it will imply the correct response was to follow the messenger on a wrong qiblah.

First of all don't forget the fact that guidance is a GRADUAL process, the whole Qur'an didn't reveal in a single day.
The prophet didn't born as a prophet /guided human, e.g. 937.

If the first qiblah was the right one, why the prophet didn't please with that?
He knew some problems with their current qiblah, that's why it(qibla1) was not pleasing/ less pleasing

And when God says "We made the qiblah" (جَعَلْنَا الْقِبْلَةَ)
do you think that the prophet /they were on the 1st qiblah because God ordered them to do so?
If it was by God's order, then why the prophet was not pleased being on that qiblah.

in my understanding, "We made (جَعَلْنَا)" here means they were on the 1st qiblah because they choosed it by some reason (e.g. tradition/circumstances etc) and God made things so for some reason ("that We make evident he who follows the messenger...&quot.
But the prophet knew some problems with their qiblah/ it was less pleasing/ not satisfying for him.

Layth

Salam,

I will re-post my views here as the topic was discussed in another thread

Qibla 1 (no issue, this was what the prophet was following)
Qibla 2 (the reverse of Qibla-1, creates confusion, stress to the believers as well as makes non-believers question them)
Qibla 3 (the restricted Temple, given to the Prophet after he showed discomfort with Qibla 2).

My personal view there should have been a return to Qibla 1 after the death of Mohammed (as Qibla 3 was given to him personally and would end with him),

Wakas

peace all,

It seems to me you are all dancing around the issue, avoiding addressing the problems the article raises.

Mohammed, if you're claiming "And We made..." refers to something not from God then at least provide evidence from Quran.

If it was by God's order, then why the prophet was not pleased being on that qiblah.

It's a decent question and traditional interpretations sometimes make reference to this with some variation in explanations. Almost all of which are not Quran based.
In my view, the answer is simple, Quran tells us why, it is because being on the 1st qiblah was a great/big (thing/test) ~difficulty, and obviously this is not a pleasant experience, doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just a struggle, hence the messenger was seeking guidance , a way forward, and he was given one, in my view in a very astute way. One of the results would be less/no argument from the people, which is obviously a more pleasant experience to have.
I discuss this in more detail in the article.

Here is the take home message, even if you all dance around the issues raised in the article and come up with your own interpretation, ignoring the Arabic etc, the understanding presented in the article is the ONLY self-contained explanation as per Quran that I'm aware of. It doesn't really matter if one disagrees with it, the point is we potentially have self-contained explanations (or as good as) for verses 171, 177, 1760, 4827, 2142-150. I've personally never seen that before hence the challenge I set.

Mohammed_

peace Wakas,

To my knowledge, there is no any verse that says to the prophet to turn towards 1st qiblah. Hence it's evident that God did not order it.

But if you are claiming that the prophet and his followers were on the 1st qiblah because God instructed/ordered him/them to do so, Where did God gave such an instruction in the Qur'an?
(i.e. to turn towards the 1st qiblah. Like in 2144,149-150 -where God says to turn towards almasjid alharam).

Wakas

peace Mohammed,

You have made a bold claim, i.e. when Quran uses "We made...", "God guided" etc it doesn't necessarily mean it's something from God or God wanted. Since you never brought any evidence from Quran you have defaulted to the following line of argument command to follow 1st qiblah is not explicitly stated thus it's not from God. This will raise a few theological/conceptual issues for you to reconcile e.g. if it was not from God then from where did the messenger and his community get the authority/guidance to follow such a qiblah? Did the messenger just make it up? You believe it means "prayer direction" so if it was not from God, who decided upon the direction if it was not God? Interestingly this issue came up recently in a debate with Edip Yuksel. Long story short, there are explanations but it depends on which viewpoint you want to go with and if you find them acceptable or not.

Perhaps you should ask yourself, what if you cannot find any example in Quran wherein it uses "And We made..." etc and it's not from God. Will you still hold your view?

In any case, let's examine your line of argument. On the surface it seems reasonable but I recommend you read (and re-read) my article in which this is discussed
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html

It is discussed therein.

It is not explicit in Quran what the "1st qiblah" was but as I have mentioned I'm only using the terms "1st qiblah", "2nd qiblah" to make the article easier to follow. In reality this wording is impractical (and somewhat stupid) as there can be many qiblah, each person can have their own qiblah, and one's qiblah could change even in the same day. Why is that? Well the word is tied to "wijhatun" which means "course/goal/motive/direction" and obviously this can change frequently for people. So it's not quite fitting to make explicit a "1st qiblah", it wouldn't sound right, although it is obvious for any reader of Quran what the messenger community at the time focussed on, i.e. what their course/goal/motive/direction was.

However, we can glean lots of info about it in the verses, as discussed in the article.

But let's get back to basics. If you are among a nascent messenger community, and the people around you have differing beliefs, when you spread your message you will get opposition, argument, hostility. This is clear from Quran this is what happened. The message (and thus you) are antagonistic to them. This was the 1st phase (or qiblah/focus if you will) of the messenger community. This was over years and naturally this takes it toll on a person, just like I'm sure it did on the messenger and some of his community. After years their numbers grew but they still needed to progress, it was still a struggle. The messenger was seeking guidance , on the next step, and he received it. God commanded him and his followers to utilise a vehicle through which would complete God's favour upon them and it did this perfectly. It was actually ingenious in my opinion.

Many people cannot answer so many issues raised in the article, they cannot connect the dots and realise "al masjid al haram" and "hajj" etc are only mentioned in the latter chapters (after these change of qiblah verses), a mere coincidence, they cannot answer why does Quran say "from wherever thou depart/exit..." as if to imply travelling to another location, why does it talk about uniting people, they have no clue as to why it will result in no debate, what the big test was in 2143, why the change pleases the messenger, why is shatra used here and nowhere else, why is there a fear of monetary loss in excluding people from AMAH, what does 4827 mean, what does 171 mean, why is 1760 a trial for others etc etc etc. In the dedicated discussion thread you will find not one person came up answers, but dont take my word for it, read the entire thread for yourself. It's only been 7 years maybe they need more time?

good_logic

Peace Wakas.
It seems you do not need any answer as you have a good idea of what went on regarding the verses.
Then you say this, quote
"you will find not one person came up answers, but dont take my word for it, read the entire thread for yourself. It's only been 7 years maybe they need more time?".

Why are you even relying on answers from others? Or is this not the case?
Are you satisfied with your understanding? That should be the only concern really.

While I appreciate reading your views, I do not see what others deduce or explain as an issue, if one is satisfied with their own understanding..
You shared your view and asked the difficult and easy questions and that is all you can do.
When others give you their views,then you reply like you are doing .
And so far you have done by not accepting their answers which is fair enough.
The issues that I see is what are
Hajj.
Masjid Al Haram.
Qiblah.
The Salat.
... and many more .
What is the relationship with these ? And what is Qoran instructing?
And this is where more questions arise, but at the end of the day, each will have to satisfy their own side /enquiry. This is where I see the main.problem.
But like Qoran says-Each follows the direction they choose-. So in reality it is not really a problem if one is continuing their research.
Thanks for your threads that at least ask so many questions.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Wakas

peace GL,

Why are you even relying on answers from others? Or is this not the case?
Are you satisfied with your understanding? That should be the only concern really.

I am fairly satisfied with my understanding however in an ideal world I'd like to see discussion with actual evidence being put on the table (for the various views), including addressing issues raised and then weighing up which view is strongest. This is what advances the learning process (for myself and others).

And of course I agree we are ultimately only responsible for our own self.

Mohammed_

peace Wakas,

Everything is from God only, He is the ultimate controller, EVERYTHING is a result of His judgement/will.

what if you cannot find any example in Quran wherein it uses "And We made..." etc and it's not from God.

I did not say it's not from God. I said

...and God made things so..

I.e., God let things happen in this way/ God let them choose the 1st qiblah (but they choosed it by their own) just for the purpose that, at the time of change, God make evident he who follows the messenger from he who will turn back on his heels.

Some examples for "We made"

368
"Surely We (have) made on their necks iron collars, and it's (up) to the chins, so they (are with) heads raised up."

369
"And We (have) made before them a barrier and behind them a barrier. and We covered them, so they (do) not see/understand."

Here "We made" doesn't mean God simply made these people in that state because He wanted them to be so. It's these people (their own decisions/actions/deeds) only made them in that state/condition. Only they are responsible for that. I.e., it's actually they choosed their state/condition, still it says "We made" (since ultimately God is the controller/judge). So here, "We made" refers "they choosed"

3634
"And We (have) made therein gardens of date-palms and grapes..."
Does "We made" here means, God simply commanded the earth/land to produce a Garden?
No, it's actually human decisions/actions/ their efforts made the garden, but it says "We made".

Further more, If God willed, He would have given the messenger the knowledge of 2nd qiblah in the beginning itself i.e., at the time the messenger choosed/started to follow 1st qiblah. But God didn't give that knowledge.
In other words, "God made" the 1st qiblah for them until a certain time.

1st qiblah = qiblah which they followed prior to God's command
2nd qiblah = qiblah in God's command -2144,149,150 (the sacred/Restricted temple)

Everything ultimately is from God only, everything happens because God wanted it to happen. And God is just.

Wakas

peace Mohammed,

Even if we accept that "we made" may mean similar to what you are proposing BUT that is not the only words used, and I mentioned some, e.g. "God guided", "he who follows the messenger", "so We make evident..."God was not to let your iman/faith go to waste..."

However, it does not change the main point of the article and that is determining what was the great/big (thing) in 2143. All evidence points to being on the 1st qiblah.

ayman

Peace brother Wakas,

Could you please clarify a few points for me? It has been a while since we discussed this issue.

What is your interpretation of the 1st focal point/target?
How was making/allowing this 1st focal point/target a test? How is this test applicable today?
I think you are still interpreting the 2nd focal as "the inviolable time of submission" and I think that this is further interpreted by you as the inviolable full-moons where hunting is restricted. Could you clarify how this reconciles with the change of the focal point. Is the 2nd focal point only during this time or is it permanent?
How do the people of the book know that "the inviolable time of submission" is the truth from their lord? How do they know it as they know their own children?

Peace,

Ayman

Enquiry

Salam Wakas,

Although many people aren't sure about the 1st Qibla, however there are some indicators on where it could have been. Dan Gibson's video on this issue is interesting. Please see this video (from 6.30 min onwards)

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=shlQIAnMEdA&list=PLCy1hElGB7JFO_btWjf1QeEyoD1mlb1hG&index=2

Peace

P.S

Sorry I didnt consider your question

These verses discuss a change in "qiblah". My question is simple
what was the test The Quran speaks of in these verses?

No evidence on my part except conjecture If Mohammed believed in other prophets and messengers, then he must have seen no reason (at first) to not face the 1st Qibla. Overtime however he must have see the diffulty in compromising with other religions and etc.and must have understood it was time to change their entrie course (as not to be confused with other religions) and see who was faithful (and not "inbetween&quot him and other religions (Jews, Christians, etc). This final turning might have meant cutting ties with all they knew from their previous religions and or families.

God knows best.

Peace

Wakas

peace Enquiry,

By asking "what was the test...." it is referring to the poll options

being on the 1st qiblah
being on the 2nd qiblah
changing from 1st to 2nd qiblah
unsure
other

The poll doesn't require anyone to explain what they think what 1st qiblah was, but that may prove helpful in further discussion. Perhaps I could have been clearer.
In any case you seem to imply the difficulty was the change of the qiblah. This fails according to the issues highlighted in the article. e.g. you have to claim the messenger was pleased for him/community to undergo a testing change, and "cutting ties with all they knew from their previous religions and or families" will lead to less argument, bring you all together etc.

peace Ayman,
Answering those Qs will not affect your answer to the poll question, which is... ?
In any case, most of those Qs are answered in this thread and the linked article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
When I have some more time I will give summarised answers.