The fuel of hell and the new life forms of heaven
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"The fantasy and the human are indeed two different creations that are bonded together. While the human is a living creature, the fantasy is not a living creature since it is not made of water but of fire."
Peace brother Ayman ..
Above is your quote.. You have completely derailed from Quran to give such assumptions... In fact you are in a fantasy world.
Jinn is fantasy? And not a living creature? And hell is not literal?
God was literally communicating with malaika (creature Jinn but status)... Was God talking to fantasy and unreal?.. What was it that Mariam and Ibrahim and his wife saw and communicated? Were they real or fantasy? Aren't the malaika Jinns? And created of fire? for you not... Okay..
What was that great dialogue between God and Iblees? Was it real? Why iblees claimed he was created by fire while still he was in the status of malaika and why iblees said he is better than Adam just giving the reason of created by fire? All what iblees talked is fantasy ?You got completely wrong to say human was created by water and jinn is by fire.. Brother all living creature was created by water... Human by clay and jinn by fire... But water is the main source of creation.. Did iblees said he was created by fire and Adam was by water?
According to 2285 .... We need to believe in Malaika.. Who are they? Are they fantasy and unreal? Weren't they part and parcel of creation of this earth and heavens?
Who is Gibreal who is Micheal ? Are they fantasy?
Who are those who come to take our soul and beat on the faces? Are they fantasy? Aren't they real? Who are they who beg for pardon of us from God? Who are they who goes up until the nearest heaven to steal the hearing and they were chased by fire? Are these human fantasy? What relation with them to human?
Who are those virgins whome no men or Jinn touched? Is it unreal fantasy not touched those virgins?
They all Jinn... Once again they all Jinn created by God by fire not by clay...How can hell is not literal? Why God need to replace the skin when it is burned? Why there need guards of 19 in hell. Is this imagination?
What is day of ressurection if hell is imagination and unreal? Why God says day and night hell is shown to pharoa untill day of ressurection? 4046.. why they wish to ransom earth full of gold to deliver them from hell...With whome God was furious in verse 711-18? So what was that promise to fill hell whoever followed Iblees? What is the respite iblees got until day of ressurection? So God ordered all the non existing fantasy of human to sujud Adam and one fantasy(iblees) denied? What a joke? Is hell unreal after reading all this?
To say jinn is fantasy of human and hell is not a place but a state of no life no death, you need to deny the day of ressurection and you need to make it unreal...
On that day God questions.. And witnesses are brought and all our records are given to read... Even messengers are questioned.. 5116"And when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."Is the above verse imagination? Or Isa in a real day communicating to God infront of everyone saying that he never said to take him as God.. What a shame on those who said Jesus was God... So hell is no place but state and probably heaven also and day of ressurection also.. All just imagination.. Aren't they? Is that what you want to say? Is that what you understood what Quran says?
Better be with you that understanding.. May God save others from this misguiding.. -
Peace everyone,
Shaytan / jinn has no power over the believers. The angels bowed down to Adam except Iblee refused. It is an enemy to human beings. Submit it to us, I don't think it's our mission, don't follow it, yes we can.
When submitted to God alone, satan / jinn has no power over us.1422 And the devil said when the matter was complete "God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise. And I had no power over you except that I invited you and you responded to me. So do not blame me, but blame yourselves; I cannot help you nor can you help me. I reject that you have set me up as a partner before this; the wicked will have a painful retribution."
Peace
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"The fantasy and the human are indeed two different creations that are bonded together. While the human is a living creature, the fantasy is not a living creature since it is not made of water but of fire."
Peace brother Ayman ..
Above is your quote.. You have completely derailed from Quran to give such assumptions... In fact you are in a fantasy world.
Jinn is fantasy? And not a living creature?Peace dear brother Jkhan,
According to the great reading every living thing is made of water. The "jinn" is made of fire. So according to the great reading the "jinn" are not a living thing.
And hell is not literal?
Hell is literal but its descriptions are allegorical. This is just like "pain" is literal but how you feel pain is through electrical pulses transmitted to your brain cells through your nervous system. If your nervous system goes out of control and spontaneously transmits the worst pain that it can transmit then this would be the worst torture.
God was literally communicating with malaika (creature Jinn but status)... Was God talking to fantasy and unreal?.. What was hat Mariam and Ibrahim and his wife saw and communicated? Were they real or fantasy? Aren't the malaika Jinns? And created of fire? for you not... Okay..
The controllers aren't "jinn"/fantasy. Controller is just a role/status that the god appoints to any creature, living or not.
What was that great dialogue between God and Iblees? Was it real? Why iblees claimed he was created by fire while still he was in the status of malaika and why iblees said he is better than Adam just giving the reason of created by fire? All what iblees talked is fantasy ?
The dialogue is real but Iblees certainly didn't speak it in Arabic. So the dialogue in the great reading is allegorical and this is why it is told in different words every time it is recounted in the great reading.
You got completely wrong to say human was created by water and jinn is by fire.. Brother all living creature was created by water... Human by clay and jinn by fire... But water is the main source of creation.. Did iblees said he was created by fire and Adam was by water?
Living creatures are created from water. Clay/mud has water. Iblis is created from fire, so it is not a living thing. Simple.
According to 2285 .... We need to believe in Malaika.. Who are they? Are they fantasy and unreal? Weren't they part and parcel of creation of this earth and heavens?
They are controllers. They are any creature (living or not) who the god decides to give the status/role of controller to. You could become a controller if the god decides to appoint you as one. The god can also take away this appointment/status like what happened with Iblis. Unlike "jinn"/fantasies, the controllers are part of the hidden. So if you were appointed as a controller by the god, that side of you would be hidden and to us you would still seem like a regular human being.
Who is Gibreal who is Micheal ? Are they fantasy?
Who are those who come to take our soul and beat on the faces? Are they fantasy? Aren't they real? Who are they who beg for pardon of us from God? Who are they who goes up until the nearest heaven to steal the hearing and they were chased by fire? Are these human fantasy? What relation with them to human?They are controllers. Not all controllers are fantasy. Only Iblis was a fantasy (jinn) which was given the status of controller and then he lost this status when he disobeyed the god.
Who are those virgins whome no men or Jinn touched? Is it unreal fantasy not touched those virgins?
They all Jinn... Once again they all Jinn created by God by fire not by clay...No such thing as virgins. Those are things that humans and the fantasies cannot grasp. This means that those things in heaven are better than anything you can fantasize. It is not all about sex.
How can hell is not literal? Why God need to replace the skin when it is burned? Why there need guards of 19 in hell. Is this imagination?
What is day of ressurection if hell is imagination and unreal? Why God says day and night hell is shown to pharoa untill day of ressurection? 4046.. why they wish to ransom earth full of gold to deliver them from hell...
With whome God was furious in verse 711-18? So what was that promise to fill hell whoever followed Iblees? What is the respite iblees got until day of ressurection? So God ordered all the non existing fantasy of human to sujud Adam and one fantasy(iblees) denied? What a joke? Is hell unreal after reading all this?
To say jinn is fantasy of human and hell is not a place but a state of no life no death, you need to deny the day of ressurection and you need to make it unreal...
On that day God questions.. And witnesses are brought and all our records are given to read... Even messengers are questioned.. 5116"And when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."Hell is literal. What is the worse thing you can imagine? This is hell.
Is the above verse imagination? Or Isa in a real day communicating to God infront of everyone saying that he never said to take him as God.. What a shame on those who said Jesus was God... So hell is no place but state and probably heaven also and day of ressurection also.. All just imagination.. Aren't they? Is that what you want to say? Is that what you understood what Quran says?
Better be with you that understanding.. May God save others from this misguiding..I hope I clarified for you.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
You did not give your own understanding without interpretation or assumption the verses that I quoted before.
we can start with these 2 verses
721
Say "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said "We have heard a magnificent Qur'an!"7179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.Thanks.
Peace,
From the following verses, I understand Aljinn et aljinns. As two different creations.
Like human beings, Aljinn have feet, hearts, eyes, ears, offspring, soldiers, nations, they speak, warn, think, create and have received messengers among them.721
Say "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said "We have heard a magnificent Qur'an!"
722
"It guides to what is correct, so we believed in it, and we will not set up anyone with our Lord."
723
"And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord, He has not taken a wife nor a son."
724
"And the foolish one among us used to say lies about God."
725
"And we had thought that neither mankind nor the Jinn would ever utter a lie against God."
726
"And there were men from among mankind who used to seek help from the men among the Jinn, but they only increased them in sin / rahaqan /fatigue, exhaustion."6112
And as such, We have permitted the enemies of every prophet-human and Jinn devils-to inspire each other with fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.6128
And the Day We gather them all "O assembly of Jinn, you have managed to take many from mankind." Their supporters from mankind said "Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us." He said "The Fire is your dwelling, abiding therein, except as your Lord wishes." Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.6130
"O assembly of Jinn and mankind, did not messengers come to you from amongst you and narrate to you My revelations, and warn you of the meeting of this Day?" They said "Yes, we bear witness upon ourselves;" and the worldly life deceived them, and they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters.738
He said "Enter with the multitude of nations before you from mankind and Jinn to the Fire!" Every time a nation entered, it cursed its sister nation, until they are all gathered inside it; then the last of them says to the first "Our Lord, these are the ones who have misguided us, so give them double the retribution of the Fire!" He replied "Each will receive double, but you do not know."7179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.1850
And We said to the angels "Yield to Adam." So they all yielded except for Satan. He was of the Jinn, he disobeyed the order of his Lord. Will you take him and his progeny as allies besides Me, while they are your enemy? Miserable for the transgressors is the substitute!2717
And the soldiers of Solomon were gathered, comprising of mankind and Jinn and birds, for they were to be spread out.2739
A powerful being from among the Jinn said "I will bring it to you before you rise from your station. For I am strong and trustworthy."3412
And for Solomon the wind was given, traveling one month coming and one month going, and We caused a spring of tar to flow for him. And from among the Jinn are those that worked for him with the permission of his Lord; and any one of them who turns from Our commands, We shall cause him to taste the retribution of the Fire.4125
And We assigned to them associates who adorned their present and past actions-and the sentence was deserved by them-as it was for the nations before them of Jinn and mankind; they were losers.4129
And those who have rejected will say "Our Lord, show us those who have misled us from among the Jinn and mankind so we can trample them under our feet, so that they would be the lowest."4618
These are the ones against whom the sentence has been deserved in nations who had come before them of mankind and Jinn; they are the losers.4629
And We dispatched to you a company of Jinn, in order to let them listen to the Qur'an. So when they arrived there, they said "Pay attention." Then, when it was finished, they returned to their people, to warn them.5533
O assembly of Jinn and mankind, if you can penetrate the boundaries of the heavens and the earth, then go ahead and penetrate. You will not penetrate without might.Peace
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Shaytan / jinn has no power over the believers. The angels bowed down to Adam except Iblee refused. It is an enemy to human beings. Submit it to us, I don't think it's our mission, don't follow it, yes we can.
When submitted to God alone, satan / jinn has no power over us.
1422 And the devil said when the matter was complete "God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise. And I had no power over you except that I invited you and you responded to me. So do not blame me, but blame yourselves; I cannot help you nor can you help me. I reject that you have set me up as a partner before this; the wicked will have a painful retribution."The original command of the god was for the "jinn"/fantasy to submit to us. Accomplishing this original command is what restores balance and makes BOTH "jinn"/fantasy and humans serve the god
- And I did not create the fantasies and the humans except to serve me.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother Ayman..
Below your comment "A"...
"The original command of the god was for the "jinn"/fantasy to submit to us"
So you accepted all who submitted to Adam on that great day are Jinn coz command was not only to Iblees but to entire Jinn who were on the status of Malaika.. Do you agree? You have to.. That's Quran..
So one thing is clear Jinn are another creature who are to obey God... But out of those jins who are elite with the status of malaika almost faultless except Iblees... Not all Jinns are malaika... Malaika are not sent to this earth to be tested, coz they always obey god and surrender and applaud.. Such no need test while they already obeyed...
Every other jinn and new creation of human disobeyed God... So gave a chance to reform...Okay since all the malaika are physical creature called jinn, you have to discard the fantasy... Some of them rounding the Arsh of God... Some of those Jinn come to the earth in the form of human as Messengers.. These are not non existing fantasy.. But real creatures... They can talk, they can feel, they can do whatever human are capable of doing...
Unfortunately, your fantasy doesn't know everything what Adam knew.. When Adam named what he was taught by God, fantasy failed... And withdrew...Below your comment "B"...
"They are controllers. Not all controllers are fantasy. Only Iblis was a fantasy (jinn) "
Do you see how contradictory your comments are... Note comment A with B... You clearly accepted jinn are separate creatures and out of them iblees was different..
Brother when God says He created(khalaq) it means He created a physical tangible creature... Whatever it can be.. be it human or Jin or animal or trees or star or sun or moon or rain or clouds whatever... Human is a full system creature... Not each and every organ of human is separate creature but ONE... With it.. it is called human.. Not for only hand we call human or only for eye OR pain we call human.. All together is human.. Don't separate it to atoms..
God never created anything which doesn't exist..thats so shame to say so... How can one claim that doesn't exist is a creation.. Be visible OR invisible but if it exists that is a creation..
For you fantasy Dosen't exist but still a creation.. What logic is that brother..?
Carefully read jinn verses and surrounding verses...
It's a physical creature... Status of malaika was not given in non existing... But they do live.. They have physics.. Don't you get that within Quran? How can a status be given to non existing..Note below verse..
4629 "And , when We directed to you a few of the jinn, listening to the Qur'an. And when they attended it, they said, "Listen quietly." And when it was concluded, they went back to their people as warners."
In this verse..Are these Jinns seems not existing fantasy to you?
Look at the wording...
Few of the jinn.. Not all it means physical .
They can listen.. Why they listen to QURAN.. They talk... They say to listen with much attention quietly.. When MOHAMED finished reading they left to their men and women to warn them with what they heard.. ... So they carry a message to a community.. Herald.. All these signs are of a physical creature other than human...Are these fantasy? Mohammed even didn't know until God told so... So no connection with those who attended and Muhammad.. It's not Mohamed's fantasy..
Mohammed was the messenger to human of that society.. And who are these Jinns taking the message and going to their own people to spread without even knowing to MOHAMED. .?How do you call just coz jinn are created by fire it is non existing?
Fire is a tangible object.. Out of it if anything is created then it is a physical creature...
Still you are adamant.. God created every living thing with water.. Trees animal birds human jinn.. All with water... So jinn also a living creature that's incontrovertible coz Malika are jinn... And they do exist..
Again I repeat.. God says we created well before jinn by fire and later human by clay... It's more than enough evidence that both are creatures... But God says every living thing is created by water... Note carefully pls.. In the same verse had God stated in this manner "we created before Jinn by fire and human by water" then we can all comprehend that there is a difference.. Coz in other verses God says every living creature was created by water.. So we can differentiate why God said jinn created by fire while every living thing created by water.. Then you can think may be jinn is not a living thing.. But that's not the wording..Iblees's (Jinn) only intention was to divert those who follow God.. Reason is God misguided him.. First of all accept that.. God sent iblees astray that iblees accepted.. That arrogance and the boasting of being higher level creature being created by fire made iblees to request for respite until the day of ressurection... Why? It is coz he wants all to fall in his trap... Did we human requested a respite? No.. Another misled creature did.. Of course we have to overcome iblees and his gang.. But it doesn't mean they are non existing fantasies.. To overcome God sent guidance and guides whom He wills..
Imagination is part and parcel of system.. Without imagination nothing works... To understand the right and wrong imagination play the role.. But making the jinn as imagination and fantasy is completely and manifestly against the teaching of Quran..
But quran is very clear and no doubt...
Brother it is not my imagination or fantasy to go the extreme heaven and listen secretly to what those elite do talk... It is not my fantasy to get chased by fire.. And it is not my fantasy to call it is well gaurded by powerful.. .. That's why they are a creature called mean Jinn trying to listen to other elite jinn..
I would like to add this verse as well..
- And when the god said to the controllers “I am making in the earth a leader”. They said “Do you make in it that who corrupts in it and sheds blood while we exalt with your praise and sanctify for you?” He said “I know what you don’t know.
This was a discourse between malaika and God well before the creation of Human... We don't know with how many malaika God commented this particular dialogue.. Lets hope all of them... That include iblees as well... What their concern was that "were they not enough as creature abd why need human? And they are free of trouble making as well and fully obedient.... So these Jinns in the elite state of malaika are fantasy? Nothing but real... Try to grasp it...
Anyway.. I know people can be trapped with wrong understanding of Quran.. Sometimes it takes time to come to right understanding or perhaps die with wrong understanding... God guides and explains Quran's meaning.. So be patient and research..
May God guide us to right path.. -
Peace Houriya,
we can start with these 2 verses
721
Say "It has been inspired to me that a group of Jinn were listening." They said "We have heard a magnificent Qur'an!"Do you agree that the great reading has allegorical passages?
Do you agree that allegorical passages speak to the imagination?
If your answer is YES to both then this passage describes a group of humans listening with their fantasies to allegorical passages.7179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.This passage makes it clear that humans and their imaginations are tied together. Do people understand with their hearts? How about physically blind people, are they destined to hell? How about physically deaf people, are they destined to hell? The passage is clearly allegorical, addressing the imagination.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace brother JKhan,
So you accepted all who submitted to Adam on that great day are Jinn coz command was not only to Iblees but to entire Jinn who were on the status of Malaika.. Do you agree? You have to.. That's Quran..
So one thing is clear Jinn are another creature who are to obey God... But out of those jins who are elite with the status of malaika almost faultless except Iblees... Not all Jinns are malaika... Malaika are not sent to this earth to be tested, coz they always obey god and surrender and applaud.. Such no need test while they already obeyed...
Every other jinn and new creation of human disobeyed God... So gave a chance to reform...
Okay since all the malaika are physical creature called jinn, you have to discard the fantasy... Some of them rounding the Arsh of God... Some of those Jinn come to the earth in the form of human as Messengers.. These are not non existing fantasy.. But real creatures... They can talk, they can feel, they can do whatever human are capable of doing...
Unfortunately, your fantasy doesn't know everything what Adam knew.. When Adam named what he was taught by God, fantasy failed... And withdrew...No I don't agree. The controllers "malaika" is just a status. If I command all employees that serve a company to submit, then this doesn't mean that they are all engineers. There are engineers, accountants, managers, etc. If the engineers refuse to obey then this has nothing to do with the accountants )
Do you see how contradictory your comments are... Note comment A with B... You clearly accepted jinn are separate creatures and out of them iblees was different..
They are not contradictory if you understand "malaika" to be a status as per 326, which you are not considering.
Brother when God says He created(khalaq) it means He created a physical tangible creature... Whatever it can be.. be it human or Jin or animal or trees or star or sun or moon or rain or clouds whatever... Human is a full system creature... Not each and every organ of human is separate creature but ONE... With it.. it is called human.. Not for only hand we call human or only for eye OR pain we call human.. All together is human.. Don't separate it to atoms..
God never created anything which doesn't exist..thats so shame to say so... How can one claim that doesn't exist is a creation.. Be visible OR invisible but if it exists that is a creation..
For you fantasy Dosen't exist but still a creation.. What logic is that brother..?Do you deny that you have the ability to imagine things? If not then who created that ability and gave it to you?
Carefully read jinn verses and surrounding verses...
It's a physical creature... Status of malaika was not given in non existing... But they do live.. They have physics.. Don't you get that within Quran? How can a status be given to non existing..
Note below verse..
4629 "And , when We directed to you a few of the jinn, listening to the Qur'an. And when they attended it, they said, "Listen quietly." And when it was concluded, they went back to their people as warners."
In this verse..Are these Jinns seems not existing fantasy to you?
Look at the wording...
Few of the jinn.. Not all it means physical .
They can listen.. Why they listen to QURAN.. They talk... They say to listen with much attention quietly.. When MOHAMED finished reading they left to their men and women to warn them with what they heard.. ... So they carry a message to a community.. Herald.. All these signs are of a physical creature other than human...
Are these fantasy? Mohammed even didn't know until God told so... So no connection with those who attended and Muhammad.. It's not Mohamed's fantasy..
Mohammed was the messenger to human of that society.. And who are these Jinns taking the message and going to their own people to spread without even knowing to MOHAMED. .?Please see my explanation to sister Houriya above.
How do you call just coz jinn are created by fire it is non existing?
Fire is a tangible object.. Out of it if anything is created then it is a physical creature...
Still you are adamant.. God created every living thing with water.. Trees animal birds human jinn.. All with water... So jinn also a living creature that's incontrovertible coz Malika are jinn... And they do exist..
Again I repeat.. God says we created well before jinn by fire and later human by clay... It's more than enough evidence that both are creatures... But God says every living thing is created by water... Note carefully pls.. In the same verse had God stated in this manner "we created before Jinn by fire and human by water" then we can all comprehend that there is a difference.. Coz in other verses God says every living creature was created by water.. So we can differentiate why God said jinn created by fire while every living thing created by water.. Then you can think may be jinn is not a living thing.. But that's not the wording..Your ability to imagine things is existing and the brainwaves associated with the imagination are existing. This doesn't mean that when you imagine unicorns or dragons that they will be existing.
The imagination is the humans' creative energy and it is a non living creature but it exists. The products of your imagination don't exist in reality but they do exist in a hidden dimension. Thus your fantasies will be exposed on the day of the account (4016) and everyone will see them (5021-23).
Iblees's (Jinn) only intention was to divert those who follow God.. Reason is God misguided him.. First of all accept that.. God sent iblees astray that iblees accepted.. That arrogance and the boasting of being higher level creature being created by fire made iblees to request for respite until the day of ressurection... Why? It is coz he wants all to fall in his trap... Did we human requested a respite? No.. Another misled creature did.. Of course we have to overcome iblees and his gang.. But it doesn't mean they are non existing fantasies.. To overcome God sent guidance and guides whom He wills..
Imagination is part and parcel of system.. Without imagination nothing works... To understand the right and wrong imagination play the role.. But making the jinn as imagination and fantasy is completely and manifestly against the teaching of Quran..Isn't arrogance the product of the fantasy?
As you said, imagination is part of the human system and without it that system doesn't work. What do you see the role of the imagination in understanding right/truth and wrong/falsehood? If we control our imagination and it submits to us then doesn't this make us more right/truthful? If on the other hand if it controls us then doesn't this make us more wrong/false?
But quran is very clear and no doubt...
Brother it is not my imagination or fantasy to go the extreme heaven and listen secretly to what those elite do talk... It is not my fantasy to get chased by fire.. And it is not my fantasy to call it is well gaurded by powerful.. .. That's why they are a creature called mean Jinn trying to listen to other elite jinn..All human inventions and technology to explore the universe are a result of the imagination.
I would like to add this verse as well..
230. And when the god said to the controllers “I am making in the earth a leader”. They said “Do you make in it that who corrupts in it and sheds blood while we exalt with your praise and sanctify for you?” He said “I know what you don’t know.
This was a discourse between malaika and God well before the creation of Human... We don't know with how many malaika God commented this particular dialogue.. Lets hope all of them... That include iblees as well... What their concern was that "were they not enough as creature abd why need human? And they are free of trouble making as well and fully obedient.... So these Jinns in the elite state of malaika are fantasy? Nothing but real... Try to grasp it...The controllers can see the future. However, the future is not one dimensional so there are many possible futures. Iblees was still a controller at the time so he also saw the future from his point of view. The god knows what the controllers do not know. The controllers are wrong just like they were when they killed the boy in (1874). They were wrong even though they knew the future (1880). Moses was right and this is why we are the leaders of the earth not the controllers.
Anyway.. I know people can be trapped with wrong understanding of Quran.. Sometimes it takes time to come to right understanding or perhaps die with wrong understanding... God guides and explains Quran's meaning.. So be patient and research..
May God guide us to right path..The best way to test one own understanding is to come up with a better interpretation than what is being presented. Out of all the interpretations of "jinn", ghosts, red man with a fork, snakes, reptilians ) ... only fantasy makes sense and is in line with the great reading and with what we know about ourselves. Look inside you. We all know what drives us to invent lies and do wrong. It is our imagination.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman
Peace Houriya,
Do you agree that the great reading has allegorical passages?Agree
Do you agree that allegorical passages speak to the imagination?
There is a word in Arabic to say imaginary khayal, the verb yukhayyalu appears only once in the story of Moses with the magicians.
If your answer is YES to both then this passage describes a group of humans listening with their fantasies to allegorical passages.
For you a group of Jinn were listening means a group of humans listening with their fantasies ?
I do not agree
humans and their imaginations are tied together.
Yes, it's normal the human being is endowed with all the capacities to reason, invent and imagine.
hearts, eyes, ears are not allegories in 7179.
7179
And We have given to Hell many of the Jinn and mankind; they had hearts with which they did not understand, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like hoofed animals; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones.I agree we can see without really seeing, listen without hearing when our mind is elsewhere / unaware, and read the reading without understanding it when the heart is veiled and our senses are sealed.
The veil here is an allegory same for they are like hoofed animals.A deaf mute sees with his eyes and understands with the heart, ditto for the blind, he hears with his ears and understands with the heart.
Understanding is linked to the heart.Peace
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salan ayman
you say “ Out of all the interpretations of "jinn", ghosts, red man with a fork, snakes, reptilians ... only fantasy makes sense and is in line with the great reading and with what we know about ourselves.”
no one said that jinn are ghosts or red men with forks or reptilians etc or that angels have white robes and halos etc ... all we are saying is that jinn are creatures created by The God and definately not human fantasies (i do not even see the logic in “fantasies” lol) ...
it’s quite obvious throughout the Quran that jinn are a separate creature ... and my understanding is that jinn and angels are same creation, but jinn disbelieved whilst angels believed in The God (perhaps i am wrong)
you say “The best way to test one own understanding is to come up with a better interpretation than what is being presented.”
the point is not to develop interpretations just to be different and think that what is already presented must be wrong ...
it is very incorrect to think that mainstream is necessarily wrong just because hadith and sunnah are upheld whilst those who uphold Quran only are necessarily right ...i think the Quran is literal ... and when examples are made, we are explicitly told that they are examples .. but everything is the truth and literal ... i believe no allegory or examples unless stated they are examples or allegories
Except whom your Lord has given mercy, and for that He created them. But the word of your Lord is to be fulfilled that, "I will surely fill Hell with jinn and men all together." (surah 11, verse 119)
.. imagination being burned in hell? hein lol ?
and btw hell is physical and it has been described to us in the Quran ... there is no allegory or metaphoranyways brother ayman jinn are true separate creatures ... and humans who do not submit to The God, invent lies about The God, do not obey The God, do not pray or provide charity etc etc actually took the jinn for allies (that is what is meant by shirk) and on day of judgement humans and jinns will mutually disown each other and start cursing each other ... there is no fantasy here
peace
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salam
regarding the jinn and angels to be of same creation, there is a verse that makes me actually think perhaps no (if anyone can help)
i forgot the verse number but it was when The God tells us He asks the angels if humans took them as allies to which the angels reply no humans took the jinn as allies
does that separate the creations into angels and jinn rather than angels being jinn that were given control or jinn being not achieving rank of angels?
also, why is it thought that “malaika” just means being given control and not a creation?? what makes anyone think that?
yes The God asked the angels to prostrate and iblis refused so i understand iblis was an angel and then fell to being a jinn, but how does the relation go?
jinn are fallen angels? or angels are jinn who were given control so the creation is jinn? or are jinn and angels different creations?
thank uuu
peace
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Brother ayman,
Whats about the personal experience of someone?
Example in my case many years ago i met a person who claimed to have jinn who tell him things and first time he saw me and told me things what really shocked me like, my name, the purpose of my visit, even he tell a thing what really amaze me i was with two of my aunts who were sisters to eachother and also their kids married with eachother and person ask from my aunts whats ur relation to eachother and they said, we are sisters. He laughed and said you have another relation and they both get shocked too.
What i saw as a first hand witness i cant deny how you will see at those events?
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Peace brother JKhan,
No I don't agree. The controllers "malaika" is just a status. If I command all employees that serve a company to submit, then this doesn't mean that they are all engineers. There are engineers, accountants, managers, etc. If the engineers refuse to obey then this has nothing to do with the accountants
They are not contradictory if you understand "malaika" to be a status as per 326, which you are not considering.
Do you deny that you have the ability to imagine things? If not then who created that ability and gave it to you?
Please see my explanation to sister Houriya above.
Your ability to imagine things is existing and the brainwaves associated with the imagination are existing. This doesn't mean that when you imagine unicorns or dragons that they will be existing.
The imagination is the humans' creative energy and it is a non living creature but it exists. The products of your imagination don't exist in reality but they do exist in a hidden dimension. Thus your fantasies will be exposed on the day of the account (4016) and everyone will see them (5021-23).
Isn't arrogance the product of the fantasy?
As you said, imagination is part of the human system and without it that system doesn't work. What do you see the role of the imagination in understanding right/truth and wrong/falsehood? If we control our imagination and it submits to us then doesn't this make us more right/truthful? If on the other hand if it controls us then doesn't this make us more wrong/false?
All human inventions and technology to explore the universe are a result of the imagination.
The controllers can see the future. However, the future is not one dimensional so there are many possible futures. Iblees was still a controller at the time so he also saw the future from his point of view. The god knows what the controllers do not know. The controllers are wrong just like they were when they killed the boy in (1874). They were wrong even though they knew the future (1880). Moses was right and this is why we are the leaders of the earth not the controllers.
The best way to test one own understanding is to come up with a better interpretation than what is being presented. Out of all the interpretations of "jinn", ghosts, red man with a fork, snakes, reptilians ... only fantasy makes sense and is in line with the great reading and with what we know about ourselves. Look inside you. We all know what drives us to invent lies and do wrong. It is our imagination.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman brother..
Unfortunately you are not sticking with Quran... But you respond something else... I don't need fancy answers of engineers bla bla.. Even they engineers or doctors or lawyers, remember order was to employees.. Order was to malaika... Iblees was one of them... If iblees accepted he was created by fire... By what all those who were with iblees were created? Use logic..
Anyhow I would like to tell these two things with verse..
1539-40 Iblis said, "Lord, because you have caused me to go astray, I shall make earthly things attractive to (people) and mislead all of them, except Your sincere servants"
1542 "and you(iblees) have no authority over My servants except the erring ones who follow you."No fantasy dude.. Just look carefully the verses... Iblees or even no power can change the sincere servants of God... Iblees accepted it.. Sincere servants of God will always follow what God ordered to follow... They don't care of the deception of iblees and his gang.. They know what is deception and what is truth... They won't let it near them.. They know how be away from it...
They don't have any connection with fantasy as per you or iblees or his decendants..Second point is sincere followers of God are guided.. Remember God guides whom He wills and God misguides whom He wills... So God does it... Not even iblees... So for sure not fantasy... God knows the soul and let it go astray as per their choice so job of iblees made easy...
Even sincere followers have imagination apart from what they do for their salvation.. That's general life.. I always imagine how to cook a wonderful dish when away from family... It comes really well...
Dude... Note this also... When God sealed the hearts of disbelievers what iblees need to do... Did iblees seal the hearts? Satan doesn't know anything what human thinks and human imagination and human fantasy ... They only keep watching at us... And react and whisper according to what they see.. So human get deceived coz of whisper by not using his own imagination ... Imagination or knowledge and wisdom all from God and not from iblees...Why God says before reading Quran to seek refuge in God from Satan.. Coz reacts by watching not by what we imagine ... God only knows what we think and what is in our hearts which propels for imagination? Iblees has no such capacity ...
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Do you agree that the great reading has allegorical passages?
Do you agree that allegorical passages speak to the imagination?
Peace,
Ayman
Question is not directed me but let me give my response as well...
I never agree that there is allegorical passages in Quran unless and otherwise manifestly stated it is an allegory... Otherwise before every allegory god doesn't need to state allegory... What is stated as allegory is allegory others manifest..
Allegorical passages not speaking to the imagination... What nonsense that is... Allegorical passages speaking to the truth... Allegory is presented based on truth.. To ponder on that allegory and think of reality...
Take any allegory.. Are they imagination to anyone's taste.. No.. They are reality in its own... It is there in reality... Nothing to imagine.. but just to compare ...
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Brother ayman,
Whats about the personal experience of someone?
Example in my case many years ago i met a person who claimed to have jinn who tell him things and first time he saw me and told me things what really shocked me like, my name, the purpose of my visit, even he tell a thing what really amaze me i was with two of my aunts who were sisters to eachother and also their kids married with eachother and person ask from my aunts whats ur relation to eachother and they said, we are sisters. He laughed and said you have another relation and they both get shocked too.
What i saw as a first hand witness i cant deny how you will see at those events?
That's a good story... I think what say is true story... Coz.. Long time back One of our staff lost her valuable diamond studded gold neclace on her way to a wedding.. She was so upset and keep telling to everyone.. It seems so valuable.. But one of the friends told there is a person in a remote village who is good at finding the lost.. But she said.. They will only take our money.. But she is sure she has lost it while entering to wedding reception...
Somehow she went to that person hoping he would find her necklace.. This person is famous calling Jinnwasam..
She has gone to him.. Not told anything.. But this person told you lost your necklace... She asked where is it?.. He told you have not lost.. It's near your courtyard.. She found it in the same place..How he knows... This person is using Men of Jinn for his assistance.. That's what people say..
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"How he knows... This person is using Men of Jinn for his assistance.. That's what people say.. "
most people really looking for miracles and Jinns so they could see and get assistance from them.
In your case I think the real Jinn could be the friend assisting.)long back people believed these Jinn and ghost stories for their unsolvable issues, now people give reasons for most but yet I see belief plays are positive role for many who could not find reasons.
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2275 "Allah chooseth from the angels messengers, and (also) from mankind. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Seer."
1794-95 And what prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them except that they said, "Has Allah sent a human messenger?"
Say, "If there were upon the earth angels walking securely, We would have sent down to them from the heaven an angel messenger...Now by above two verses anyone would understand that Malaika are a creature... By the tone of human in this verse they knew there is a creature other than human... Calling malaika a separate creature is also no harm... Coz while they are in that status we don't know what they are capable of doing with the permission of God and their privileges (for example shape shifting to human, so many vested powers that makes them unique from jinn and human) .. In Yousuf story those ladies called Yousuf.. He is not man but a malak.. Not coz he is attractive but coz no human cannot be like him but beyond human nature.
But the concern here is.. For brother Ayman Jinn is not living creature but fantasy of human...
You would have clearly understood by 1794-95 malaika are a creature... But for sure God created Men and Jinn only for testing..
But with the story of iblees throughout the Quran it is indicated by God that iblees was malak and degraded to mere jinn... But iblees while being a malak did not lie anything .. Whatever iblees told was true.. Iblees told while still being as malak and while being among other malaika that he was created by fire... He exposed what he was created being a malak.. So we can manifestly deduce that malaika are created by fire... And God confirms He created Jinn by fire..
Now.. God degrade all iblees's status of malak to mere jinn.. God never made another creature out of iblees but only deprived all what he was given as malak... So he became mere a jinn... For example.. If a prophet/messenger was deprived all his status to be mere human being or king is deprived all his kingship to be normal human being.. ..Isn't that clear that jinn is a creature other than human..