When were we dead as per 2:28?

Anoushirvan

Salam,

Since Qur'an addresses numerous times to the "Children of Israel", verse 2.28 should be understood in a way that appeals to Jewish tradition and thought.

In ancient Jewish thought, death is a metaphor of idolatry and exile of the people of Israel in connection to the destruction of the Temple (hence the expression "Masjid al-Haram" in Qur'an, haram meaning also destroyed and not only sacred).

In ancient Jewish thought, there was this pattern

First Temple (of Salomon) -> destruction of the First Temple and Exile, i.e. first death -> return from Exile and construction of the Second Temple, i.e. resurrection -> destruction of the Second Temple and Exile, i.e. second death, waiting for the Messiah and the new resurrection.

Surah 2, and in particular verse 2.28, is related to the foundation of the Jewish Arab kingdom of 620/621 J.C., which event was reinterpreted three hundred year later as the "Hijra" by the Islamic tradition.

The foundation of this Jewish Arab kingdom is to be deemed as the equivalent of the new resurrection. And in effect, when 20 years later, Umar took Jerusalem, one very early chronicle (Sebeos) credits him to have rebuilt the Temple on the current Temple Mount.
Umar was also called al-Faruq in the Islamic tradition, but the origin of this name has nothing to do with discerning truth from lie the word Faruq comes from Syriac Paroqa which means the Redeemer, i.e. the Messiah.

The problem was that the Messenger of Qur'an was strongly opposed to the modalities of foundations of this kingdom, blaming the founders for their chaos strategy. This chaos strategy is called al-Fassad in Qur'an, and it has very little to do with a mere question of morals.
The chaos strategy is still in use today by some terrorist groups hoping to hasten the coming of the end of times, which is exactly what the ancient Jewish tradition called resurrection and coming of the Messiah.

In the ancient Jewish tradition, the Messiah (the Redeemer) must come at the height of the tribulations of Israel. And if the Messiah doesn't come, it means that we are not quiet yet at the height of the tribulations, hence spreading chaos would surely help a bit the Messiah to come...

Tribulations is called "fitna" in the context of Qur'an.

There could be also some connections between al-Fassad and some Gnostic beliefs, as suggested by verse 2.30 but this would be too long to explain.

Verse 2.28 actually shifts the traditional pattern of the Jewish tradition in that way

Second Temple time, i.e. first life -> Fitna of the Second Temple destruction and Exile, i.e. first death, Kuntum 'Amwātāan -> Foundation of the Jewish Arab kingdom of 620 / 621, i.e., new life, Fa'aĥyākum -> Future Fitna and destruction of this kingdom because it spreads Fassad, i.e. new death, Thumma Yumītukum -> A new State based on ethical basis according to Qur'an message, i.e. new life, Thumma Yuĥyīkum, and return to God.

imrankhawaja

4011 They will say, "Our Lord, You have made us die twice, and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this path?"

consider this one as well, perhaps hinting towards multiple lives and deaths = re-incarnation.

Houriya

Peace,

4011 They will say, "Our Lord, You have made us die twice, and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this path?"

consider this one as well, perhaps hinting towards multiple lives and deaths = re-incarnation.

If the prophet would fabricate something different against God, God threatened him to taste twice live and twice death.

1773 And they nearly diverted you from what We inspired to you so that you would fabricate something different against Us, and then they would have taken you as a friend!
1774 And if We had not made you stand firm, you were about to side with them a little bit.
1775 Then, We would have made you taste twice life / di'fa alhayati and twice death / di'fa alamamat. And then you would not find for yourself any victor against Us.

Peace

jkhan

Peace,

If the prophet would fabricate something different against God, God threatened him to taste twice live and twice death.

1773 And they nearly diverted you from what We inspired to you so that you would fabricate something different against Us, and then they would have taken you as a friend!
1774 And if We had not made you stand firm, you were about to side with them a little bit.
1775 Then, We would have made you taste twice life / di'fa alhayati and twice death / di'fa alamamat. And then you would not find for yourself any victor against Us.

Peace

Exactly sister Houriya.... i don't know you believe in reincarnation but it seems it happens...
Why prophet was threatened is coz he would end up as a rejector / disbeliever by fabricating against God... Disbelievers will go through two lives and that also seems bizzare... Having a life and go through is not an easy task ... to have it second time is horrible.. but we can't ensure whether all who got second chance failed.. God knows

Houriya

Those who had rejected ,They had a 2nd chance / 2nd life, they failed twice. Do they go other lives to repent of their disbelief, God only knows.

4010 Those who had rejected will be told "The abhorrence of God towards you is greater than your abhorrence of yourselves, for you were invited to believe, but you chose to reject."

4011 They will say "Our Lord, You have made us die twice, and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this state?"

good_logic

Peace All.
Two oints first
1-Verse 228 is not addressing the Childeren of Israel, it is addressing those from 226 and 227-everyone-

How can you disbelieve in God when you were dead and He gave you life, then He puts you to death, then He brings you back to life, then to Him you ultimately return?
كَيفَ تَكفُرونَ بِاللَّهِ وَكُنتُم أَموٰتًا فَأَحيٰكُم ثُمَّ يُميتُكُم ثُمَّ يُحييكُم ثُمَّ إِلَيهِ تُرجَعونَ

2- It-Amwatan/dead- cannot mean we were nothing, if GOD chose the word "Amwatan"- Dead- it can only mean that we were alive before that

GOD has already chosen "we were nothing- before," at the beginning of our first life
"Awa Lam Yara Al Insan Anna Khalaknahu Min Kablu Wa Lam Yukun SHaiian"
"Does the human not realise that we created him before when he was NOTHING"- i.e first creation.

The indication from Qoran is that this "human stage" is our second life.
As for believers and disbelievers, their life and death are not the same.
"Do you think the lives and deaths of these two types of people are the same?

For example the believers at the end of their life as humans , their soul will be welcomed by the Angel of death and given the good news ,while awaiting the judgement somewhere confortable
The angels terminate their lives in a state of righteousness, saying, "Peace be upon you. Enter Paradise (now, awaiting) as a reward for your works."
الَّذينَ تَتَوَفّىٰهُمُ المَلٰئِكَةُ طَيِّبينَ يَقولونَ سَلٰمٌ عَلَيكُمُ ادخُلُوا الجَنَّةَ بِما كُنتُم تَعمَلونَ
. .
On the other hand, the soul of the disbelievers will be snatched from them and kept awaiting its judgement -Death is like sleep- with the continuous nightmare of this bad news
The angels put them to death in a state of wronging their souls. That is when they finally submit, and say, "We did not do anything wrong!" Yes indeed. God is fully aware of everything you have done.
الَّذينَ تَتَوَفّىٰهُمُ المَلٰئِكَةُ ظالِمى أَنفُسِهِم فَأَلقَوُا السَّلَمَ ما كُنّا نَعمَلُ مِن سوءٍ بَلىٰ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَليمٌ بِما كُنتُم تَعمَلونَ
The Hell will be shown to them day and night, and on the Day of Resurrection "Admit Pharaoh's people into the worst retribution."
النّارُ يُعرَضونَ عَلَيها غُدُوًّا وَعَشِيًّا وَيَومَ تَقومُ السّاعَةُ أَدخِلوا ءالَ فِرعَونَ أَشَدَّ العَذابِ

Basically , according to what happened in our first life, we are here out of mercy from the creator to either redeem ourselves back or put ourselves further away from GOD s kingdom
Should we just ignore the fact that you have transgressed the limits?
أَفَنَضرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكرَ صَفحًا أَن كُنتُم قَومًا مُسرِفينَ
This is the reason ,our "original sin" from our past life has led us here.

GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Houriya

7172
And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.

7173
Nor can you say "It was our fathers who set up partners before and we were simply a progeny who came after them. Would You destroy us for what the innovators did?"

7174
It is such that We explain the revelations, perhaps they will return / repent.

4627
And We destroyed the towns around you and We had dispatched the signs, perhaps they would return / repent.

26208
And We have not destroyed any town except after having warners.

2194
So whoever does good works and he is a believer, then his efforts will not be rejected and We will record it for him.

It was their last chance

2195
And it is forbidden for a town that We destroy, that they will not return!

6158
Do they wait until the angels come to them, or your Lord comes, or certain signs come from your Lord? The Day certain signs come from your Lord, it will do no good for any soul to believe if it did not believe before, or it gained good through its belief. Say "Wait, for we are waiting."

seekingtruth1111

7172
And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.

7173
Nor can you say "It was our fathers who set up partners before and we were simply a progeny who came after them. Would You destroy us for what the innovators did?"

7174
It is such that We explain the revelations, perhaps they will return / repent.

4627
And We destroyed the towns around you and We had dispatched the signs, perhaps they would return / repent.

26208
And We have not destroyed any town except after having warners.

2194
So whoever does good works and he is a believer, then his efforts will not be rejected and We will record it for him.

It was their last chance

2195
And it is forbidden for a town that We destroy, that they will not return!

6158
Do they wait until the angels come to them, or your Lord comes, or certain signs come from your Lord? The Day certain signs come from your Lord, it will do no good for any soul to believe if it did not believe before, or it gained good through its belief. Say "Wait, for we are waiting."

Peace Houriya

So disbelievers will be given two chances on this earth?

When a baby is born it may be getting 2nd chance or second life?

If that is the case then after the second death when they are resurrected for the day of judgement that will be 3rd life?

Sorry I am not getting your point here.

jkhan

Peace Houriya

So disbelievers will be given two chances on this earth?

When a baby is born it may be getting 2nd chance or second life?

If that is the case then after the second death when they are resurrected for the day of judgement that will be 3rd life?

Sorry I am not getting your point here.

Don't confuse brother...

After the second death of disbelievers, there is no more coming to this world... All will be resurrected...
Once resurrected and destined for hell it is not third life.. Hell is No life ...its suffering mere suffering a punishment and no freedom... No escape... But in real life they had freedom.. That's life... Two times life given and two times death fallen... After that only punishment...

When a baby is born second time it is second chance to the same soul but it is life after all..

imrankhawaja

Look in to it i already mentioned it here with equation.

https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610350.msg419285#msg419285

Houriya

Peace,

Knowing that this is our second life and that we have already transgressed during our first life, it shocked me, my flesh bristled, at the same time, I am not surprised. Human beings are unjust and ignorant.

Don't confuse brother...

After the second death of disbelievers, there is no more coming to this world... All will be resurrected...
Once resurrected and destined for hell it is not third life.. Hell is No life ...its suffering mere suffering a punishment and no freedom... No escape... But in real life they had freedom.. That's life... Two times life given and two times death fallen... After that only punishment...

When a baby is born second time it is second chance to the same soul but it is life after all..

Peace

ade_cool

Salam all,

O people, serve your Lord who has created you and those before you that you may be righteous.
The One who has made the earth a resting place, and the sky a shelter, and He sent down from the sky water with which He brought out fruits as a gift to you. So do not set up any equals with God while you know.
And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.
And if you cannot do this; and you will not be able to do this; then beware the Fire whose fuel is people and rocks, it has been prepared for the rejecters.
And give good news to those who believe and do good works that they will have estates with rivers flowing beneath them. Every time they receive a provision of its fruit, they say “This is what we have been provisioned before,” and they are given its likeness. And there they will have pure mates, and in it they will abide.
God does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say “What does God intend with this example?” He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
The ones who break the pledge to God after making its covenant, and they sever what God had ordered to be delivered, and they make corruption on the earth; these are the losers.
How can you reject God when you were lifeless and He brought you to life? Then He makes you lifeless, then He brings you to life, then to Him you will be returned.

...

O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I had bestowed upon you, and fulfill your pledge to Me that I may fulfill My pledge to you, and reverence Me alone.
And believe in what I have sent down, affirming what is with you, and do not be the first to disbelieve in it! And do not purchase with My revelations a cheap gain, and of Me you shall be aware.

The ones being addressed in 228 is An-Nas which started in 221. They are people in general who are being exposed to Kitab that God sent down. The logic employed when addressing them is that if they have doubt, then why they don't take the challenge etc. These An-Nas is being contrasted with Bani Israel which are addressed starting 240. Bani Israel is given Kitab (see 4516), that is why the logic employed when addressing them is different, i.e. don't be the first to disbelieve, don't exchange for small gain, etc.

Now back to 228

How can you reject God when you were lifeless and He brought you to life ? Then He makes you lifeless , then He brings you to life , then to Him you will be returned .

First lifeless => completed/done (when we were nothing, we were lifeless)
First life => completed/done (our current life)
Second lifeless => not yet completed/to be done (we will die)
Second life => not yet completed/to be done (we will be brought to life)

Wassalam,
Ade

seekingtruth1111

Don't confuse brother...

After the second death of disbelievers, there is no more coming to this world... All will be resurrected...
Once resurrected and destined for hell it is not third life.. Hell is No life ...its suffering mere suffering a punishment and no freedom... No escape... But in real life they had freedom.. That's life... Two times life given and two times death fallen... After that only punishment...

When a baby is born second time it is second chance to the same soul but it is life after all..

Peace jkhan

The question is when is the second life and second death if the first death is as follows?

3758 "Are we then not going to die,"
3759 "Except for our first death, and we will not be punished?"

4434 These people now are saying
4435 "There is nothing but our first death; and we will never be resurrected!"

4456 They do not taste death therein except for the first death, and He has spared them the retribution of hell.

seekingtruth1111

Now back to 228

How can you reject God when you were lifeless and He brought you to life ? Then He makes you lifeless , then He brings you to life , then to Him you will be returned .

First lifeless => completed/done (when we were nothing, we were lifeless)
First life => completed/done (our current life)
Second lifeless => not yet completed/to be done (we will die)
Second life => not yet completed/to be done (we will be brought to life)

Wassalam,
Ade

Peace Ade

Then how do we explain 4011 if the first Lifeless/dead state was not by causing death.

4011 They will say, "Our Lord, You have made us die twice, and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this path?"

ade_cool

Peace Ade

Then how do we explain 4011 if the first Lifeless/dead state was not by causing death.

4011 They will say, "Our Lord, You have made us die twice, and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this path?"

Salam seekingtruth1111,

How can you reject God when you were lifeless and He brought you to life ? Then He makes you lifeless , then He brings you to life , then to Him you will be returned .

Context in this life
First lifeless => completed/done (when we were nothing, we were lifeless)
First life => completed/done (our current life)
Second lifeless => not yet completed/to be done (we will be lifeless)
Second life => not yet completed/to be done (we will be brought to life)

They will say “Our Lord, You have made us lifeless twice , and You have given us life twice . Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this state?”

Context in the hereafter
lifeless twice => completed/done (when we were nothing + when we were lifeless after first life)
life twice => completed/done (first life + brought to life in hereafter)

Wassalam,
Ade

jkhan

Peace jkhan

The question is when is the second life and second death if the first death is as follows?

3758 "Are we then not going to die,"
3759 "Except for our first death, and we will not be punished?"

4434 These people now are saying
4435 "There is nothing but our first death; and we will never be resurrected!"

4456 They do not taste death therein except for the first death, and He has spared them the retribution of hell.

Peace brother ST111

Verses are absolutely manifest and no need confuse over it… That’s why God orders us to explore the book… with exploration we get certain knowledge of what we not in fact needed for our salvation… That’s for knowledge and satisfaction..
4456 is addressed to those who live in Janna… Here God confirms they won’t taste Second death… First death of their entire life is the only death… Suppose if you are a believer accepted by God then you will definitely die one time on this earth and that is your first death and to have a death you need live life…So you experienced your death before you were resurrected and destined to live in Janna… You lived as human once that is your current life … before creation there is no life…. God confirms those in janna(true believers) only have one death and those in janna also confirms that they won’t die apart from their first death… Death is very clear according Quran.. Angels do come and take the soul and bring it to Lord.. Believers will only experience that only ONE TIME…

But those who ended as disbelievers on their first death after having life will have another life within this current world and die.. that’s incontrovertible… God is Most Merciful… Probably God shown mercy when they pleaded send us back that we will do righteous with what we left.. but it seems it has become a habit on every time they die…
Ponder the below verses..
2399-100 “until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back, that I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected.

No believer will ever ask the above from God when death falls to them, coz if they are true believers they will find how pleasant they will be treated by angels and by what angels talk to them at the time of death they will leave happily and not beg like above.. So above verses definitely pertaining to disbelievers… But this verse seems request of those disbelievers who are about to die second time for third life… God replies it is only a word he is saying… God knows he was given two lives and not reformed.. from that moment there will be a Barrier (Barzakh) to such until the day they are resurrected..

In verse 4435 definitely they can’t accept the truth and adamant and denying that they will only die their current life being disbelievers and further deny the Resurrection (the final)… challenging if in case after first death there is another life then prove to us by bringing their ancestors back to life…they are in astray…total astray…

To Summarize…
Believers Life + Death + Life (life of Janna) … No death.. but perish when earth and heaven perish.. to nothing
Disbelievers Life+ Death + life + Death + Punishment (Jahanna..not living there and not dying) … but perish when earth and heavens perish or God’s will … to nothing..

Since God and the people of blessed Janna confirmed that They won’t taste the death apart from their first death, it is much evident that those who were given two lives and two deaths never enter Janna… Two lives and two deaths not taught them anything and never reformed..

tutti_frutti

salam jkhan

you do not know if the people in paradise will perish and be reduced to nothing

you have also not completed the verse (surah 11, verse 10

As for those who are glad, they will be in paradise; abiding therein as long as the heavens and the earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes, a giving without end/uninterrupted (please verify the arabic text)

also, given the people of paradise will only experience the first death, my understanding is that they will not experience a second death and so The God perhaps permits them to be eternally in paradise

the counter argument though is in surah 28 verse 88

Do not worship anything besides God. He is the only God. Everything will be destroyed except God. To Him belongs Judgment and to Him you will all return.

i do not know if The God is telling us that all will perish in this life or in general He will remove everything from existence and bring the next life to an end
but as after we are told that everything wil be destroyed then The God mentions judgement belongs to Him and that we will return to Him, i understand the sequence of events that everything will perish in this life and we will return to Him (maybe i am wrong)

i do not agree with you regarding your interpretation of surah 57, verse 3

i understand that
The God is THE Eternal
He who has no beginning and no end
He is the Truth, The One
He is the Creator of existence
The Owner of existence
alllll glory is to Him

peace

jkhan

salam jkhan

you do not know if the people in paradise will perish and be reduced to nothing

you have also not completed the verse (surah 11, verse 10

As for those who are glad, they will be in paradise; abiding therein as long as the heavens and the earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes, a giving without end/uninterrupted (please verify the arabic text)

also, given the people of paradise will only experience the first death, my understanding is that they will not experience a second death and so The God perhaps permits them to be eternally in paradise

the counter argument though is in surah 28 verse 88

Do not worship anything besides God. He is the only God. Everything will be destroyed except God. To Him belongs Judgment and to Him you will all return.

i do not know if The God is telling us that all will perish in this life or in general He will remove everything from existence and bring the next life to an end
but as after we are told that everything wil be destroyed then The God mentions judgement belongs to Him and that we will return to Him, i understand the sequence of events that everything will perish in this life and we will return to Him (maybe i am wrong)

Dear TF..
I have given my explanation about Jahanna and Janna.. wish you read correctly what I wrote by not missing… for both time span is identical as long as Earth and Heavens last… But No one knows the WILL of God which is an additional phrase in the verse… But promises of God everyone knows.. He won’t break His promise… God can do better for those in Hell by His Will.. God won’t punish them beyond what is promised… that is not breaking promise… that’s Mercy… But God cannot take away anything what is promised for those in Janna… If God said as long as Earth and heavens last, then it should be accomplished, that is keeping the promise… What happens after Earth and Heavens perished is within God’s will.. That we don’t know.. But nothing is like God and nothing can last like God… There is no promise of creating the third earth and heavens and make us live on it and on and on…. No.. We are creature and bound to extinct / nonexistent at certain time when God will or as He promised… We are not First and we are not Last… Can’t expect to have the qualities of God for Human or any of His creature…

i do not agree with you regarding your interpretation of surah 57, verse 3

i understand that
The God is THE Eternal
He who has no beginning and no end
He is the Truth, The One
He is the Creator of existence
The Owner of existence
alllll glory is to Him

peace

It is absolutely fine what you understand about God… But my understanding remain with me… And what I understood about God differs to you in relation to verse 5703…
2888 is within context… It never used the Word GOD but His Wajha..That You try to find meaning and open a new topic…or if you already know explain if you wish…
2888 When everything is perished There is No Lord, No Creator, No Mercy, No Mighty…. Nothing is meaningful…. Unless He repeats what He did… Once He established in His Arsh He became Rabb Al Alamin… Alamin is over… No Rabb…. He cannot call He is God without a single living creature of His… He is empty then…. He created well before Jinns and assigned malaika so He has authority over them… Then later created the Earth and heavens and placed all living creature and more authority.. Rabb ala alamin…. But when nothing All His attributes are nothing…
For me God is not Eternal
He has No beginning and No End is nowhere God indicated for us to claim it so…
Rest is okay and agree..

5703 He is FIRST (Awwal) He never said He has No Beginning but instead said He is First…He is Last (Akhir) He never said Has No End but instead said He is Last… Don’t take these two words metaphor… But they are literal…
First means nothing before…. No. 01… nothing before it…then came the creations…. Then ends of creations… Then literally He becomes Last….

tutti_frutti

salam jkhan

in the verse about hell The God says “EXCEPT as your Lord wishes” .. so hell does not necessarily exist as long as the heavens and earth exist... but perhaps The God will make hell perish but keep the heavens and earth and as such perhaps paradise still in existence

in the verse about paradise The God says “a giving uninterrupted/without end” (please verify the arabic original)

The God tells us those in paradise will only experience the first death so my understanding is that they will not die or vanish or perish (or whatever synonym you wish to choose) after the first death... however if The God wants everything to perish then He does whatever He wants (He is the Truth and He told us those in paradise experience only the first death so i understand no second death or vanishing to those in paradise)

in any case He is the Eternal who has always been and will always be

The God says He IS the First and the Last and NOT He WAS the First and WILL BE the Last

He IS the first meaning nothing preceded Him as He was always, there is nothing before Him - He has always been

and He IS the last as He will always be, there is nothing after Him ... there is The God and there will always be just The God

very big diffrence between “He IS the First and the Last” and “He WAS the first and WILL BE the last”

peace

jkhan