QUESTION FOR THOSE WHO USE THE TRANSLATIONS
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HOW CAN THE PEOPLE WHO USE THE TRANSLATIONS AND DON'T KNOW QURAN IN ORGINAL SAY THIS TRANSLATION IS BETTER THAN THIS ONE? WHERE DO THEY GET THEIR PROOF FROM? PLUS HOW DO THEY KNOW WHAT THEIR READING IN THE TRANSLATION IS REALLY WHAT GOD IS SAYING? BY PICKING AND FOLLOWING A CERTAIN TRANSLATION BLINDLY UNLESS ITS PERFECT ARE YOU REALLY FOLLOWING GOD ALONE?? ISN'T THIS COMMON SENCE?
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Well for me if the style is not over-complex it's a good translation ) . And there are widely recognised translations around, so I trust other people's opinions about them.
But really most of the time I study with at least 3 different english versions; and sometimes i use a french Qu'ran too. If you have many versions you can compare them and then it's easy to spot a bad translation. Many translations are also biased that's why it's important to know who the author is and his influences.
it's not that difficult to spot a biased translation. I refuse to think that God revealed to Qu'ran for a limited number of people. The Qu'ran is for everyone. Of course not reading the Qu'ran in Arabic is a limitation, but what really matters is to understand the Message and to make the distinction between what is right and what is wrong. that's it.
I hope this makes sense.
sorry I haven't slept this night. -
Good question kb2531 and good answer zenje!
I work mostly with translations English (2 versions),French (2)and now also German (thanks Warda! ) ). Whenever having a doubt about a verse or when i just don't grasp something i check the different translations and sometimes they're really worlds apart. That's when i take the original version and very often find out that one or the other translation actually translated the (hadith "infested") interpretation and not the actual text of the original quran....
Peace all, Elke -
Well for me if the style is not over-complex it's a good translation ) . And there are widely recognised translations around, so I trust other people's opinions about them.
But really most of the time I study with at least 3 different english versions; and sometimes i use a french Qu'ran too. If you have many versions you can compare them and then it's easy to spot a bad translation. Many translations are also biased that's why it's important to know who the author is and his influences.
it's not that difficult to spot a biased translation. I refuse to think that God revealed to Qu'ran for a limited number of people. The Qu'ran is for everyone. Of course not reading the Qu'ran in Arabic is a limitation, but what really matters is to understand the Message and to make the distinction between what is right and what is wrong. that's it.
I hope this makes sense.
sorry I haven't slept this night.how can you trust other people's opinions about translations? why not seek the truth for yourself? just because something is widely recognized doesn't make it right. I don't think the method of picking out a certain number of translations and studying them will work because all the translations could of translated a verse the same and yet all be wrong, I don't think there is a sure way of knowing except going to the source.
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Peace KB,
You stated
I don't think there is a sure way of knowing except going to the source.
Where is this source?
One must understand that verification comes from within. You cannot verify the validity of the source through research methods. There are too many pitfalls and what-ifs to build a concrete case for something that occurred 1400 years ago, especially considering that all languages are dynamic. This is why languages are considered alive, as they evolve in tune with mankind.
I don't think the method of picking out a certain number of translations and studying them will work because all the translations could of translated a verse the same and yet all be wrong
This argument does not work because it is understood that translators learned Arabic at some point in their lives. These translators then interpreted words from Arabic to English. For me to go and learn Arabic the same way the translators learned Arabic gives me no advantage whatsoever. The language is what it is a symbolic representation of thoughts. Those symbols don't offer me a different concept than they did the translators.
If learning Arabic and reading the Qur'an in Arabic was the only way to understand the Qur'an perfectly, there would be no conflicting opinions about what words mean.
One must read and verify with an open mind and heart, in whatever langauge it is offered.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Salaamun alaikum,
KB
HOW CAN THE PEOPLE WHO USE THE TRANSLATIONS AND DON'T KNOW QURAN IN ORGINAL SAY THIS TRANSLATION IS BETTER THAN THIS ONE? WHERE DO THEY GET THEIR PROOF FROM? PLUS HOW DO THEY KNOW WHAT THEIR READING IN THE TRANSLATION IS REALLY WHAT GOD IS SAYING? BY PICKING AND FOLLOWING A CERTAIN TRANSLATION BLINDLY UNLESS ITS PERFECT ARE YOU REALLY FOLLOWING GOD ALONE?? ISN'T THIS COMMON SENCE?Then Zenje responded
Same question applies to 'arabic speakers'.Imho, KB asked a very pertinent question and Zenje , as usual
, incised the matter by mentinoing Arabic speakers.Lets consider the communicative process
The words we read (a)-------> Translations (b)--------> our understanding of the translated verses (c)------> non-verbal meaning in our minds (d)
Note that (b) ISN'T (c). Let say Yusuf Ali translates it '. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them' (2/3), he may have understood 'steadfast in prayer' differently that how his readers do. So the medium of english ITSELF becomes a field of subjectivity. (b) isn't (c)
And what of Arabic speakers ? All that's different is there's no (b). Parts (a), (c) and (d) remain. After having asked about 30 Arabic speakers whom I kmow, not one of them defined 'ibada' as anything other than 'worship' and 'deen' as anything other than religion.
Imho, it's not possible to get 100% understanding at point (d) because the points before that compromise things unless of course we are inspired by Allah Himself. Language is merely a medium to approximate meaning although imho, learning Arabic helps this approximation a lot.
KB, I would advise you to learn the language and see how the Quran itself uses a particular word. This would help greatly.
thanks and peace.
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Peace.
Brother KB has raised a very good point for non-arab seekers of the truth. The way I see it KB, Translations are not the Quran, so we can never take them as the Quran. What we can do with them is use them to understand the Quran, and ask the God for help at the same time. God himself has said that he will explain the revelations to those who believe, and the way it is explained is personal to each individual, it is not a universal method of transmission that applies to all, some may look up at the sky, think about how the clouds got up there and suddenly find understanding of a verse which they wanted to know more about. Some would be given the guidance directly through by discussing the verse with somebody else who is also looking for greater understanding, like we do on this forum.
The translations only give us a base for understaning, the structure of knowledge is built by God himself thropugh inspiration. As far as knowing which translation is right goes, I would say that I have never come across a translation that is 'correct', becuase no matter how much effort is put in to prevent mistranslation/conveyance of an unjust message, personal interpretation will always be involved, if not, then incorrect synonyms could still be used.
The best way to go about it all, as seen in posts previous to this is to look at a variety of translations, not just one thinking it is reliable, no matter how modern or controversial it may be. Personally, I trend to read the Quran using 2 or 3 translations, but when I come to something that I need to go over for clarification, I use upto 3 different arabic dictionaries and I ask for God's help, saying 'unzurna' (I can't remember exactly which verse tells us to do this, but it is definitely there). Even arabic dictionaries aren't neccessarily the ones that give the proper meaning of verses, it is God that does, so we should ask him for help, and not rely on arab's to give us an understanding of the quran. Hope this helps.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
Peace to all,
zenje, the answer to that may be the 19 sign, I havent verified everything about the 19 sign but from what i seen so far there does seem to be a 19 pattern in quran.
I'm not sure I understood ur point here. ?Imho, KB asked a very pertinent question and Zenje , as usual
, incised the matter by mentinoing Arabic speakers.
As usual? ? Notice I only quoted one question from kb's post. My point - if one's language is arabic, cl. arabic if you will... does this person automatically 'understand' the quran? If the answer is no, then we are in agreement. If you answered yes, then please explain, because I think we're probably talking about 2 (or more) different things. )I echo Tay's question - Where is the source? Or here's a different angle - WHO is the source?
Think about it. idea
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Salaamun alaikum Zenje,
As usual? Notice I only quoted one question from kb's post. My point - if one's language is arabic, cl. arabic if you will... does this person automatically 'understand' the quran? If the answer is no, then we are in agreement. If you answered yes, then please explain, because I think we're probably talking about 2 (or more) different things.
'As usual' here points to your 2000 plus posts in Free-minds, not just this thread )
We're in agreement, but also, I'm trying to make a point with respect to what 'understanding' is. Just because you can read a word, doesn't mean it has STRUCK you. I'm constantly amazed how the weight of the word 'ibada' hasn't hit the Arabic-speaking world despite the clarity of its usage in the book. Some other ingredients are needed before the word is inspired on you, I think.
I echo Tay's question - Where is the source? Or here's a different angle - WHO is the source?
Well precisely. I then ask, how do you get in touch with the source ?
thanks and peace.
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Peace KB,
You stated
I don't think there is a sure way of knowing except going to the source.
Where is this source?
One must understand that verification comes from within. You cannot verify the validity of the source through research methods. There are too many pitfalls and what-ifs to build a concrete case for something that occurred 1400 years ago, especially considering that all languages are dynamic. This is why languages are considered alive, as they evolve in tune with mankind.
I don't think the method of picking out a certain number of translations and studying them will work because all the translations could of translated a verse the same and yet all be wrong
This argument does not work because it is understood that translators learned Arabic at some point in their lives. These translators then interpreted words from Arabic to English. For me to go and learn Arabic the same way the translators learned Arabic gives me no advantage whatsoever. The language is what it is a symbolic representation of thoughts. Those symbols don't offer me a different concept than they did the translators.
If learning Arabic and reading the Qur'an in Arabic was the only way to understand the Qur'an perfectly, there would be no conflicting opinions about what words mean.
One must read and verify with an open mind and heart, in whatever langauge it is offered.
May peace be upon you,
Taythe source is the quran, the orginal word of god, all I meant was to be sure a verse is translated correctly it would make sence to study god's words , take this verse for example "Forbidden unto you are carrion and blood and swine-flesh.... (Al Ma' idah 3). tell me what is your way of verifying that verse is translated correctly if it's not going to the arabic quran?
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Peace to all,
zenje, the answer to that may be the 19 sign, I havent verified everything about the 19 sign but from what i seen so far there does seem to be a 19 pattern in quran.
I'm not sure I understood ur point here. ?my point is that if the 19 sign is really proven to guard every letter and word of the quran then you would know everything you are reading from the quran is from god and that nothing has been added or altered because the errors would stand out.
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Peace KB,
You stated
the source is the quran, the orginal word of god
Indeed it is, but how can this be verified?
all I meant was to be sure a verse is translated correctly it would make sence to study god's words
I do not disagree. What I disagree with is that God's words do not permeate all languages.
take this verse for example "Forbidden unto you are carrion and blood and swine-flesh.... (Al Ma' idah 3). tell me what is your way of verifying that verse is translated correctly if it's not going to the arabic quran?
I cross-reference multiple translations and find the common ground. If the common ground makes sense to me, in my heart, and in my mind, I am confident that the message has gotten through the translation. If it doesn't make sense, I keep at it until it does make sense, and if that fails, I make a note of it to come back and try to understand at a different time, in a different frame of mind.
This is what God will hold me accountable for.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace KB,
You stated
the source is the quran, the orginal word of god
Indeed it is, but how can this be verified?
all I meant was to be sure a verse is translated correctly it would make sence to study god's words
I do not disagree. What I disagree with is that God's words do not permeate all languages.
take this verse for example "Forbidden unto you are carrion and blood and swine-flesh.... (Al Ma' idah 3). tell me what is your way of verifying that verse is translated correctly if it's not going to the arabic quran?
I cross-reference multiple translations and find the common ground. If the common ground makes sense to me, in my heart, and in my mind, I am confident that the message has gotten through the translation. If it doesn't make sense, I keep at it until it does make sense, and if that fails, I make a note of it to come back and try to understand at a different time, in a different frame of mind.
This is what God will hold me accountable for.
Peace,
Taythe problem i see with that is what if the common ground is wrong? I don't quite understand what you mean by god's words do not premeate all languages.
peace
kb -
Peace KB,
You stated,
the problem i see with that is what if the common ground is wrong?
This same problem exists in understanding Arabic. What if the definition of a word in Arabic is not the same as it was 1400 years ago?
Or what if I studied Arabic in college and the professor could not atriculate the definition of a word in it's proper light? Am I not in the same situation as I would be using translations? I'd still have to cross-reference various sources to reach the truth, including of course the tasreef of the Qur'an itself.The only way to verify is from within. And that's what we're accountable for. See how that ties together?
I don't quite understand what you mean by god's words do not premeate all languages.
I mean the message of the Qur'an comes through whether it is in Arabic or in English, French or Hebrew. The truth is the truth no matter what language it's spoken in.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace KB,
You stated,
the problem i see with that is what if the common ground is wrong?
This same problem exists in understanding Arabic. What if the definition of a word in Arabic is not the same as it was 1400 years ago?
Or what if I studied Arabic in college and the professor could not atriculate the definition of a word in it's proper light? Am I not in the same situation as I would be using translations? I'd still have to cross-reference various sources to reach the truth, including of course the tasreef of the Qur'an itself.The only way to verify is from within. And that's what we're accountable for. See how that ties together?
I don't quite understand what you mean by god's words do not premeate all languages.
I mean the message of the Qur'an comes through whether it is in Arabic or in English, French or Hebrew. The truth is the truth no matter what language it's spoken in.
Peace,
TayIf god said that there is complete details to everything in quran, I would think that the quran is self-explanotory. I agree with you that the truth can be in any language but just because majority of translators translate a certain verse the same doesn't automatically make the verse correct, I would want to verify what is being said by going to the actual word of god.
peace
kb -
Peace mquran,
Just because you can read a word, doesn't mean it has STRUCK you.
Okay, we're on the same page ) . Same applies to the whole book. One could be a linguistics proffesor specializing in cl. arabic and not 'get' the message.Some other ingredients are needed before the word is inspired on you, I think.
Would be interested to hear your views on this. )I echo Tay's question - Where is the source? Or here's a different angle - WHO is the source?
Well precisely. I then ask, how do you get in touch with the source ?
This is the point, right here... we can concern ourselves with a bunch of dots, letters or even numbers... in the end it means nothing. Put your trust in HIM, and ask HIM for help and guidance, it's the only way. ideaWithout the GOD's guidance we have nothing.
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It really doesn't matter if you are reading the translations. You will get the clear understanding of message which ofcourse is for guidance.
Look at Layth. He is Saudi with perfect Arabic still he has trouble understanding the message. He is not sure about anything now. Why the person with command on Arabic is unable to understand the message? According to Qur'an, he do not have the "faith" and Allah (SWT) is putting screens before his eyes, deafness in his ears.
I know you all guys hate me for saying all this but sorry this is my honest analysis.
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Look at Layth. He is Saudi with perfect Arabic still he has trouble understanding the message. He is not sure about anything now. Why the person with command on Arabic is unable to understand the message? According to Qur'an, he do not have the "faith" and Allah (SWT) is putting screens before his eyes, deafness in his ears.
I know you all guys hate me for saying all this but sorry this is my honest analysis.
Peace KGB,
Does the description of "screens before his eyes, deafness in his ears" apply on you aswell? or are you out of the lot, and thus error-free?
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