The original Masjid al-Haram and the Bakkah (Ghods) are all in Petra, Jordan!
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Dear Brothers and Sisters sun
The current mosque in Saudi Arabia can NOT possibly be the true and original Masjid al-Haram mentioned in the Quran because the Safa, the Marwah and Arafat do NOT fit the Quranic description of Hajj. However, the city of Petra in Jordan fits the Quranic description of the Masjid al-Haram in the Quran, in the Torah and in the book of Psalm. The Torah also tells us that the last prophet was from EDOM, which is in the south of current country of Jordan including Petra.
All symbols of Hajj are still standing in the true Sacred Mosque (Al-Masjid Al-Haram) at Petra, Jordan as they were at the time of prophet Muhammad.
- Al-Bab (The Safa Gate)
- The Safa
- The Marwah
- The Ka'ba
- The Mosque behind the Ka'ba
- Hijr Ismail (Hateem)
- Arafat
They are all there in Petra and still standing. I have several videos on this topic that I highly encourage those who seek Allah and His Truth to watch. In these videos, I demonstrate to you through the Quranic verses, Biblical verses, pictures, videos and a video of myself when I performed the Hajj in Petra a few years ago that Bakkah is actually located in Jordan not Saudi Arabia. Not only the current mosque in Saudi Arabia does not fit the Quranic description of hajj but also it is in fact a very poor copy of the true Masjid al-Haram in Petra Jordan.
Brothers and sisters, my vision and dream is to hopefully one day perform the Hajj in the original Bakkah, which is the true Ghods, together with all the true believers who genuinely believe in Allah and do not commit "shirk" by associating the fake hadith and traditions with Allah and His verses. Please watch these videos and let me know if you have any questions. As I said, Allah gave me the opportunity a few years ago and I did perform Hajj in there. I have a short summary of all elements of hajj in my video that I hope you will all enjoy watching
My personal Video
https//youtu.be/CB-cVztCfycGoogle Earth Tour of all of the Hajj Symbols and their locations
https//youtu.be/wkSrr43i3wMHere are three (3) short videos that you might find interesting
https//youtu.be/m-JE-bSK3Es
https//youtu.be/ZAfEEr1bFoI
https//youtu.be/Qe03Bqu11pkHere is a playlist of all the videos I have made about this topic if you were interested
https//www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC6vaZeXRBeyTdWXAlS9OSrX9H_-Mwo7eI hope you keep an open mind and enjoy watching these videos. Hopefully, one day we can all perform hajj just like Ibrahim, Ishmael, Moses, Aaron, David and prophet Muhammad did. Definitely, Allah is able to do ALL THINGS and He is All Knowing and All Wise.
Peace and Blessings from Allah to all of you,
Mahdi ) -
Peace All.
I agree with this statement that should follow any view /take on all subjects of Qoran
"My view to the best of my knowledge is my understanding and interpretations /agreement with others interpretation of the verses of Qoran"
So in reality we are following our own logic and understanding that could be right or wrong.How can we be sure that it is right 100%? This to me is a question that is troublesome ,why?
First 100% means the evidence is clear to everyone and a certainty. Is this the case with !Al Masjid Al Haram" views here?
One can say to me and rightly so" Well good logic, what is your evidence that the views here are not right and what is your take?
A sensible and appropriate question
LET ME ELABORATE FURTHER1- If the views are different ,then they cannot all be right.
2- I am not satisfied with the evidence I have seen.
3- I am not clear in my mind about the understanding in them as I see different understanding possible.
4-A very good reason that needs explaining below
GOD s logic , arrangement of verses and role in Qoran that I will put as questions1- Why did GOD not collect all the verses of each subject together and made the meaning 100% clear to all of us?
2- Is collecting individual verses without others in the same context the right thing to do? For example can we collect only verses with "Masjid" and leave those about "Al Beyt"? etc...
3-Where did Abraham live and where did he call for"Al Hajj"?
4- Did the other two Abrahamic religions have the same focal point? Where? Or did they not?
5- Can the focal point only be abstract or physical place or both? Can it change according to where the believers gather and where they live?
6- Why to each congregation there are different "manasiq" and "Shaaire"?...
I can ask many other questions depending on my line of thought in this subject and my own understanding.Therefore my view ,yes like all the other views,will be based according to my best knowledge on my own understanding and interpretation of the verse of Qoran.
My best advice to readrs is to seek their best understanding by their own study and comparison and context of "all Qoran" as a whole on this subject.
Someone may come back to me here and challenge the validity of their view and why I did not answer their "logical and difficult questions" .
My answer is very simple and very logical to me
" i DO NOT HAVE THE SAME UNDERSTANDING OR INTERPRETATIONS AS YOU AND YOUR" LOGICAL" QUESTIONS DO NOT RISE IN MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE VERSES IN QUESTION."
Again this is my view to the best of my knowledge. GOD has deliberately allowed us to ponder and search our own understanding and explained why GOD s role in sending messengers is vital and ongoing.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Does your understanding pass The Quran's criteria?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.htmlPeace,
I believe it does pass the Quranic criteria in the sense that the Quran makes it very clear that the sacred mosque was a physical location towards which mankind were performing hajj (pilgrimage) for thousands of years since prophet Ibrahim. The Quran also makes it quite clear that within the sacred mosque existed the Ka'ba, the Safa, the Marwah, Arafat and that it had a gate through which people entered and exited. People were also performing physical tawaf in there.
Additionally, when I look at the book of Psalms, I see the exact same sacred mosque mentioned where prophet David used to perform Hajj therein https//youtu.be/RB_ABCUXFVQ
I also know that the Quran has "Muhkamat" and "Muteshabihat" (The Quran 37). However, the sacred mosque of Bakkah in Petra, Jordan is definitely a "Muhkam" as evidenced by the Quran, the Torah, Psalms and also other historical evidence that we have https//youtu.be/iy8JUeQnt3U
The Syrian State Sponsored Version of Islam (SSSVI), which was propagated by the Umayyads, eventually won the civil war against the Meccan/Medinan version of Islam during the 2nd fitnah, and that's when we ended up with a new Mecca and a new Ka'ba in 70 AH not to mention a fully new version of Islam completely based on the hadith and traditions propagated by the Umayyads.
And who dared opposing it and risked being cut into pieces like Abdullah ibn Zubair and his son did? Obviously no one. All the brave ones amongst the family of the prophet and his disciples had either already passed away or had their heads chopped off by the Umayyads. Study what the Umayyads did in the city of Medina when they captured it raping the mothers, sisters, daughters and the wives of the families of the Sahabi of the prophet. What a wickedly evil and ungrateful generation...! Allah granted them power and wealth but look how they paid Him back and demonstrated their gratitude...by massacring the family of our prophet and his disciples and raping their women...!
My blood pressure was raised after that last paragraph and I need to cool down a little bit. Peace and blessings to you!
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peace,
I believe it does pass the Quranic criteria in the sense that the Quran makes it very clear that the sacred mosque was a physical location towards which mankind were performing hajj (pilgrimage) for thousands of years since prophet Ibrahim. The Quran also makes it quite clear that within the sacred mosque existed the Ka'ba, the Safa, the Marwah, Arafat and that it had a gate through which people entered and exited. People were also performing physical tawaf in there.
The above reply implies to me you have very little idea about what The Quran says.
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salam wakas
hope all is well
may i ask, are you saying that the Sacred Temple is not physical? (unless i am mistaken, i remember a discussion a whilst back where you had mentioned that it was not physical)
i am still not sure about its location, but the Sacred Temple is most definately a physical place and we should all perform hajj there )
peace
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peace tf,
I referenced the articles wherein it is discussed above. I even provide a short summary at the end, and a two sentence conclusion, quote
Conclusion of parts 1, 2, 3
The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SJD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect", "masjid" meaning "time of SJD", "al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months). This understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout, and helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 171-8, 1760, 4827, 2142-150).As I mentioned previously many people claim X about Quran but I'm not interested in claims, only evidence. In the article I provide the verses which seemingly cause an issue for each understanding. A common response to this is "Yeh it means place......." (with silence on the issues raised).
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peace tf,
I referenced the articles wherein it is discussed above. I even provide a short summary at the end, and a two sentence conclusion, quote
As I mentioned previously many people claim X about Quran but I'm not interested in claims, only evidence. In the article I provide the verses which seemingly cause an issue for each understanding. A common response to this is "Yeh it means place......." (with silence on the issues raised).
Brother,
We have to follow the "Muhkamat" in the Quran not the "Mutishabihat". The Quran is a book of prophecies and is timeless. Not everything in the Quran has already happened such as the events related to hell or paradise.
In 4829, Allah says "on their faces from the effect of Sujud (prostration)". Prostration is real and physical.
Having said that, those articles and your reasonings are beautiful. They were so well written. Ma'shaAllah, I truly enjoyed reading them. You just have to consider that you are dealing with a timeless book filled with prophecies, which was sent down by a Creator whose Will is to test the mankind in order to weed out those who think (ponder, contemplate and meditate, Ya'agheloon) from those who don't. Trust me on one thing, if it was simple, Israelites would not have disbelieved in so many prophets. After all, they were the children of so many generations of prophets but yet they lost their path.
May Allah guide us all to what is closer, than our current state, in guidance.Peace and blessings to you,
Mahdi -
peace,
We have to follow the "Muhkamat" in the Quran not the "Mutishabihat".
It's funny you bring that up considering everyone I have read who claims it means prostration struggles to come up with a definitive Quran verse proving so, whereas I can reference several where it definitely doesn't, quote from article
258, 4154, 7161 ...enter the gate SuJuD
Clearly they cannot enter the gate prostrating. Since entering a gate is a physical act, it is possible SJD can be demonstrated in a physical act but not in a prostration manner. It more likely refers to attitude/mindset/disposition. If taken metaphorically, as in embracing/entering a new system, to do so with SJD.In 4829, Allah says "on their faces from the effect of Sujud (prostration)". Prostration is real and physical.
Already covered in the articles, quote
4829 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a seed/crop which sends forth its shoot then strengthened it then becomes thick then stands upon its stem, pleasing to the sowers. That He may enrage the rejecters/concealers with them. God promises those who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.
It is interesting to note the preposition "fi" (in) not "ala" (on), making it "their distinction/mark is IN their faces/wills/purposes/considerations". Minority usage of "fi" can mean on/at however.
The word "athar" (root Alif-Tha-Ra) basically means "that which is left behind from something" hence its meanings such as trace/mark/impression/teaching/influence and is not necessarily a physical thing, see 546, 186, 2096, 3050.
The word "seema" (root Siin-Waw-Miim) means an identifying feature (e.g. could be the way someone looks or acts) see 2273, 746, 748, 4730, 5541. Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short. Some translators, e.g. Asad, do not take it to mean a physical mark on one's face.
It should be noted that "inclining and SJD" seems to relate to "seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval" whose other occurrences relate to worldly benefits/provisions.
It should be noted that in the prior context, 4825, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face.
The "them" refers to the believers undergoing such growth. It may also imply that actualising oneself under the guidance of God's system leads to self-growth and benefits. There is an implication that the act of SJD can function as a catalyst to such growth, as it leaves an impression/influence upon such a person, thus the demeanor stems from that act/mindset, and results in fruitful growth and reward, and this is the message encapsulated in the example at the end. To achieve such effective growth, one's will/consideration/purpose/attention should be traceable back to the act of SJD.Reference
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html -
salam
if i may, my understanding as follows
i believe sujud and ruku are physical
to me that The God is very clear that we see the mark on their faces FROM sujud/prostration ... why interpret?
if people claim that prostration is not physical but to “obey” then what is meaning of ruku?? to obey^2?
also i understand in 3824 that when david knew he was tested he fell in ruku .. so to me it is obvious ruku is physical and i understand it means to fall on one’s knees
also when we are told in 6842 that those in the hereafter will be asked to do sujud but will be unable ... is that to mentally obey as welll? on judgement day they will be asled to obey and wont be able?? i very much think it is not the meaning but rather they will be told to prostrate physically but they will not be able to
my advice to people is to prostrate and kneel (unless one understands ruku as bowing) to The Lord and for extended hours
i understand prayers are definately physical
He is our Lord and we should definately fall to the ground and supplicate Him
regarding petra as where muhammed lived ... i am not sure but did muhammed and his people not live in a land of streams with all kinds of fruits and gardens? The God also mentions about bodies of water one salty one fresh so perhaps He is telling them about rivers? (2553, 3921, 699, 8025-32, 3633-36, 3527 etc) unless one understands that the verses are in general and not specifically about the place where muhammed lived or perhaps that petra used to have gardens and rivers/streams before
peace
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peace,
to me that The God is very clear that we see the mark on their faces FROM sujud/prostration ... why interpret?
Like you interpreted it to mean "on" ? What is the Arabic for "on"?
How many of those who prostrate multiple times daily have this alleged mark on their face? 1%? 2%?It's all in the article.
Perhaps I can help you, and others, out. This is the kind of response I'd expect from someone who has studied this issue
"Here are the strongest verses I have as my evidence for it meaning a physical prostration
X
Y
ZYou raised the following issues with X meaning prostration, here is my evidence-based reply to each point
- ...
- ...
- ..."
Not "I think it means prostration and I will ignore the issues you (and others) raise...."
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salam wakas
my understanding
the word used is “fi” ... would that not mean “a location” or at least “in”? and the location being “their faces”
The God tells us the muhammed and people with him do ruku and sujud and the mark is on their faces from sujud (note He does not say from ruku as well but uses only sujud to denote the cause of the mark on the faces)
are we told “light on their faces form their belief”? no we are told “mark on their faces from sujud” ... why start to interpret?
also before the word sujud in 4829 there is the word “athari” which is translated as “trace” .. so the mark is form the traces of prostration perhaps?
may i ask ... what do you think salat is? how do you do your salat if i may also ask that? and what is this mark then?
i am not ignoring the issues you raise .. for me sujud is definately prostration and ruku is kneeling ..
and what is the sujud the disbelievers will be told to perform on judgement day?what about david when he “fell” in ruku? (unless you think the correct translation of the word used before ruku is not “fell”)
and btw it is not because there are people do not have this mark that it means it is not a physical mark
anyways that is my understanding ... and just my personal opinion, i think it’s better to prostrate and be on safe side rather than not prostrating and being told sujud was actually a physical prostration ...
thank you for the article ill check it out
peace
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peace,
Yes I realised from your reply you had not read the article. Almost all of the issues you raise are already discussed in it.
For my articles on salat see here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Peace brother,
The Salat has a very specific order that needs to be followed very closely or the order of the Salat will be corrupted. The Quran details that order and the number of the rak'as/standings for us
https//youtu.be/s1UtRkLX9q4
https//youtu.be/PSRHb8CavgwThe examples brother tutti_frutti mentioned could not be any clearer about the Sujud. They leave no doubt that sujud is physical just like hajj and the sacred mosque are physical. But here is another example for you
17107 Say, "Believe it or do not believe it; when it is recited to those who were given knowledge before it, they fall down on their faces in prostration
Also, the Salat performed currently is a very watered down salat. I call it "fast food version" of Salat where you do couple of quick rukus and prostrations and call it a Salat. The true believers' Salat and prostrations were much longer and involved long periods of Quran recitations in qiyam, ruku and especially sujud.
My brother, you can't use ONLY the meaning of a word such as the Salat to infer the action. The meanings that you see in the dictionaries were ALL written by a man like you and I. By only believing in the meanings in the dictionaries, you are technically believing in a "hadith/saying", which was written by a human being like us (the writer of the dictionary). Technically, Sahih Al Bukhari (i.e., Kizb al Bukhari) and Sahih Muslim (i.e., Sahih Mushrik) are two dictionaries as well. That's all they are.
You must look at the whole concept and the specific examples the Quran gives us to determine what The Gracious Allah, our creator, had in mind for us. For example, "Zakat" means purity and becoming clean. If you go by the meaning of the word alone, you have to take a shower and wash yourself to do Zakat but we know that's not the case. The Salat is very clear in the Quran when you consider the whole story of it. There is no question about it.
Please don't miss your salat brother. You will thank me for it in the day of judgement.
Peace and blessings to you,
Mahdi -
peace,
I appreciate your kind advice.
This is a discussion forum. In such discussion I prefer evidence-based discussion. For example in both of the verses cited by you and tf (to imply sujud=prostration, 4827, 17107) you both have had to interpret them in your favour despite what the Arabic says.
If you do not know what I'm referring to in your example of 17107 then you haven't really studied this topic in detail.
As I said before it's in the article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html -
The Claim
The original Masjid al-Haram and the Bakkah (Ghods) are all in Petra, Jordan!
OR (in other words for more precise)
The original Masjid al-Haram and the Bakkah (Ghods) are all in "Petra, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" and not in "Makkah al-Mukarramah, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia"!I look at various videos furnished by the thread starter
(https//www.youtube.com/playlistlist=PLC6vaZeXRBeyTdWXAlS9OSrX9H_-Mwo7e)
AND then the historian Dan Gibson
(https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WIHbY98kYU)
Very interesting indeed and disturbs me a lot!Al-Quran I believe is mathematically composed* whereby certain knowledge can be derived from the digit of the surah and the verse. Thus I used this method to further prove to myself that the facts given in the videos are very real!
AND then I found this technique of verification also supports the claim!
Very amazing!*111 A.L.R. This is a scripture whose verses have been perfected/tightened, then elucidated. It comes from a Most Wise, Most Cognizant.
To be continued!
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Fact 1
396 The first shrine established for the people is the one in Becca (بَكَّةَ); a blessed beacon for all the people (The only word of Becca mentioned in the Quran)
396 --> 3+9+6 = 184824 He is the One who withheld their hands of aggression against you, and withheld your hands of aggression against them inside (in the valley / in the midst / in the interior) of Mecca (مَكَّةَ), after He had granted you victory over them. God is Seer of everything you do (The only word of Mecca mentioned in the Quran)
4824 --> 4+8+2+4 = 18(Indication The "Becca" and "Mecca" are the same place with different names)
Fact 2
Total gv for Petra, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (البتراء المملكة الأردنية الهاشمية) = 1494
1494 --> 1+4+9+4 = 18Total gv for "Makkah al-Mukarramah, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (مكة المكرمة المملكة العربية السعودية" = 1071
1071 --> 1+0+7+1 = 9 (Not digit of 18)(Indication The "Petra, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" is the same place with "Becca" and "Mecca" mentioned in verse 396 and 4824)
Note
(1) On-line calculator determine arabic gv https//www.abjadcalc.com
(2) The gematrical value for alone hamza "ء" is 1, equal to gv for alif "ا" AND The gematrical value of "ة" is 5 (These gv values normally used by Rashad Khalifa).Fact 3
GPS Coordinate
(1) Petra ... 30.3285° N, 35.4444° E --> 30.3° N, 35.4° E (one decimal place) = (3+0+3) + (3+5+4) = 18
(2) Makkah al-Mukarramah ... 21.3891° N, 39.8579° E --> (any decimal place) --> cannot get digit 18(Indication Since GPS's add-up digit for "Petra" equivalent to add-up digit for verses mentioning words "Becca" and "Mecca" i.e. digit of 18, we can assume that the current location of Petra is the right place for the ancient names of "Becca" and "Mecca"
To be continued
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Fact 4
The shifting of the original Masjidil Haram to unauthorised location is prophesied in the Quran!9107 And there are those who have taken a temple/masjid to do harm and cause rejection, and to divide between the believers, and as an outpost for those who fought God and His messenger before. They will swear that they only wanted to do good, and God bears witness that they are liars.
9108 Do not stand in it ever. A temple/masjid that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you stand in it; in it are men who love to purify themselves. And God loves the purified.
9109 Is he who founds his building on obtaining righteousness from God and His acceptance better, or he who founds his building on the edge of a cliff which is about to crumble, so that it crumbled with him into the fires of Hell? And God does not guide the wicked people.
9110 Their buildings that they built continue to cause doubt in their hearts, until their hearts are severed. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.(1) Now we take verse 9108 as our reference since the add-up digit equal to 18
9108 --> 9+1+0+8 = 18(Indication The site/location of the two temples/masjids mentioned in verse 9108 are interrelated to Becca & Mecca where the authorised Masjidil Haram is located)
(2) Types of temples mentioned in verses 9108
9108 Do not stand in it ever. A temple/masjid that is founded on righteousness from the first day is more worthy that you stand in it; in it are men who love to purify themselves. And God loves the purified.(a) Total gv for "Petra, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" (البتراء المملكة الأردنية الهاشمية) = 1494
(b) Total gv for "Makkah al-Mukarramah, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" (مكة المكرمة المملكة العربية السعودية" = 1071Combination of (a) & (b) = 1494 + 1071 = 2565
AND 2565 --> 2+5+6+5 = 18(Indication The combination of total gv for both places of "Petra, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" and "Makkah al-Mukarramah, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" have an add-up digit of 18 shows that the prophecy of verse 9108 is referring to these two places, one represents by a word "it" (the prohibited temple) and second represents by words "A temple" (the blessed temple) AND if we go back to the "Fact 2" above we can come to the conclusion that the word "it" (the prohibited temple) is meant for the one situated at "Makkah al-Mukarramah, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" and the words "A temple" (the blessed temple) is meant for the one situated at "Petra, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan"
Ends.
Thank you. -
I have revisited Fact 4 above and found out something very interesting!
This time, I try to use "Total GPS Coordinate" instead of "Total gv" as a new parameter
(a) Petra ... 30.3285° N, 35.4444° E --> 30° N, 35° E (without decimal place)
(b) Makkah al-Mukarramah ... 21.3891° N, 39.8579° E --> 21° N, 40° E (without decimal place and for 39.8579° E, we round-up to 40° E)Combination of (a) & (b) = (30+21)° N + (35+40)° E = (51)° N + (75)° E
AND (51)° N + (75)° E --> 5+1+7+5 = 18(Indication The combination of "Total GPS Coordinate" for both places of "Petra, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan" and "Makkah al-Mukarramah, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" have an add-up digit of 18 shows that the prophecy of verse 9108 is referring to these two places, one represents by a word "it" (the prohibited temple) and second represents by words "A temple" (the blessed temple) AND if we go back to the "Fact 3" above we can come to the conclusion that the word "it" (the prohibited temple) is meant for the one situated at "Makkah al-Mukarramah, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia" and the words "A temple" (the blessed temple) is meant for the one situated at "Petra, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan"
This is the additional proof that the original/authorised Masjidil Haram is located at "Petra, Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan"
Glory be to GOD!Thank you.
