21:30 and the Big Bang/expansion theory of the universe ?

Iyyaka

Salam alaykoum,

The passage from Qur'an 2130 must be brought back to the relevance of the thematic set to which it belongs.
It should not be exfiltrated to be put in artificial concordance with the biblical theme of genesis or the modern Big Bang/expansion theory of the universe.
It is the end of the verse on the water that gives life that conditions the understanding of the beginning of the verse, as the two parts form a whole.

To begin with, the two words ratqan and fatqan which designate the closing and opening of the heavens on the one hand, and the earth on the other, correspond grammatically to a state. A state of closure of each follows a state of opening. It is therefore normal that the two words remain invariable.

Then, in Tabari's **commentary, there are three completely different opinions

We have the sky and the earth forming a single block, an understanding that has been retained by the current translators, after a certain number of medieval
Muslim scholars and, today, by the followers of the Big Bang in the Koran.
A second opinion (not currently retained) thinks that it is the deployment of the 7 heavens and the 7 earths that is at issue.
A third opinion is that there are two closed sets, the heavens on the one hand and the earth on the other. These two bodies open up to let the rain fall, which
allows plant growth.

Concerning the first opinion, the historical assessment that can be made leads one to say that, in the society of the 9th century, which counts more and more converts who were bearers of a "biblical" memory, one is in the presence of a "biblicalization" of the understanding of the Koran.

As for the second opinion, we are in the presence of an internal theological reading which follows its own logic and which has lost all vision of the Arabian field.

The third option shows that at the end of the 9th century, some Muslim scholars had kept a vision of the original field on which the Qur'an is anchored and that, at the same time, they continued to take into account the coherence of its thematic corpus.

I give here a translation according to the first opinion whose historical relevance I contest. This translation is representative of the current understanding that I consider erroneous or rather contaminated by the text of the biblical Genesis or the scientific discoveries of the 20th century

"Have those who denied not seen that the heavens and the earth were a compact mass? So We split them apart and that We have made from the water everything that lives.
Will they not believe?" (Qur'an, 2130).

The translation that I propose, which corresponds to the third option of Tabari, and to my own historical analysis, in order to remain consistent with the relevance of the creative register of the Qur'an, and with the verse itself as a whole meaning

"Have not those who deny seen that the heavens and the earth were both in a state of complete closure. We opened them (simultaneously) so that, from the (heavenly) water,
We made everything alive (on earth). Will they not rally (upon seeing what is before their eyes)?" (Qur'an, 2130).

There is obviously no "scientific miracle" in this verse.

** Tabari = https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Tabari

God bless you

jkhan

Salam alaykoum,

The passage from Qur'an 2130 must be brought back to the relevance of the thematic set to which it belongs.
It should not be exfiltrated to be put in artificial concordance with the biblical theme of genesis or the modern Big Bang/expansion theory of the universe.
It is the end of the verse on the water that gives life that conditions the understanding of the beginning of the verse, as the two parts form a whole.

To begin with, the two words ratqan and fatqan which designate the closing and opening of the heavens on the one hand, and the earth on the other, correspond grammatically to a state. A state of closure of each follows a state of opening. It is therefore normal that the two words remain invariable.

Then, in Tabari's **commentary, there are three completely different opinions

We have the sky and the earth forming a single block, an understanding that has been retained by the current translators, after a certain number of medieval
Muslim scholars and, today, by the followers of the Big Bang in the Koran.
A second opinion (not currently retained) thinks that it is the deployment of the 7 heavens and the 7 earths that is at issue.
A third opinion is that there are two closed sets, the heavens on the one hand and the earth on the other. These two bodies open up to let the rain fall, which
allows plant growth.

Concerning the first opinion, the historical assessment that can be made leads one to say that, in the society of the 9th century, which counts more and more converts who were bearers of a "biblical" memory, one is in the presence of a "biblicalization" of the understanding of the Koran.

As for the second opinion, we are in the presence of an internal theological reading which follows its own logic and which has lost all vision of the Arabian field.

The third option shows that at the end of the 9th century, some Muslim scholars had kept a vision of the original field on which the Qur'an is anchored and that, at the same time, they continued to take into account the coherence of its thematic corpus.

I give here a translation according to the first opinion whose historical relevance I contest. This translation is representative of the current understanding that I consider erroneous or rather contaminated by the text of the biblical Genesis or the scientific discoveries of the 20th century

"Have those who denied not seen that the heavens and the earth were a compact mass? So We split them apart and that We have made from the water everything that lives.
Will they not believe?" (Qur'an, 2130).

The translation that I propose, which corresponds to the third option of Tabari, and to my own historical analysis, in order to remain consistent with the relevance of the creative register of the Qur'an, and with the verse itself as a whole meaning

"Have not those who deny seen that the heavens and the earth were both in a state of complete closure. We opened them (simultaneously) so that, from the (heavenly) water,
We made everything alive (on earth). Will they not rally (upon seeing what is before their eyes)?" (Qur'an, 2130).

There is obviously no "scientific miracle" in this verse.

** Tabari = https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Tabari

God bless you

Peace...
Green highlighted translation is more agreeable and makes sense...

But what could be the size of earth and heavens if you translate it in that manner... Obviously it doesn't seems acceptavle according to science... Coz earth is tiny mote..

I wish if you compare 2130 with 4111 and translate within your understanding

jkhan

Peace...

I don't intent or like to divert this beautiful topic to somethung else.. But still hope what I am gonna explain is relevant... Nothing but shape of the earth... Anyhow 2130 us talking about earth and heavens..

As I always debated let me add few more...

Look at this beautiful verse..
It addresses the disbeilivers...what could be the reason... Why God didn't address believers.. Perhaps Believers already knew on what they live... Or God took the responsibility to guide believers with what is truth of Earth and heavens... What ever.. It is interesting...

Secondly.. Look at the dual forms.. Arabic if used dual there must be reason why...
Even the red highlighted translation or green, Earth and heavens (plural) were together..
Suppose if God separated both of them or opened both of them.. Does that become true according to science... No way... Coz earth is still in the universe it is not separated OR opened... It lies well within it.. That's science... But Big Bang is another theory...

This verse with dual forms applied and the meaning of the verse and addressing disblievers makes much sense that this earth is identical size to heavens... How come the tiny mote earth and the immeasurable universe be put in dual form?

How come true believers don't understand this manifest verse and still believe that earth is tiny mote and insignificant and spinning... God I am sure you will definitely expose what you created to the whole world.. Why to hide toll the day of ressurection.. No point. So believers wait..

tlihawa

This translation is representative of the current understanding that I consider erroneous or rather contaminated by the text of the biblical Genesis or the scientific discoveries of the 20th century

Salaam,
I do believe that the Quran confirms the previous books.

Sura 2130 confirms the story of the creation of the universe in the Book of Genesis, and Allah created a mechanism in the Qur'an so that 2130 is not used to justify theories other than those told in the book of Genesis, such as the Big Bang Theory.

548 And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, confirming what was before between your hands of the Book and a guardian over it.

As usual, a confirmation is never more detailed than what is confirmed. For example, when we confirm a story, we may just say. "yes that's right,.."
and we might add a little information to explain more.

The Qur'an did not come down to recount all the events that have been narrated in the previous books, but just to confirm with some additional information that will strengthen what has been told previously.

Let me show you what I mean, started with this challenge,

754 Your Lord is God who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne. The night runs away from the day, which seeks it continually; and the sun and the moon and the stars are commissioned by His command; to Him is the creation and the command. Glory to God, Lord of the worlds.

Exodus 20 KJV
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is,

So it is clear that the creation of the heavens and the earth was in six days or six thousand years in our calculations.

Verses 419-12 is a snapshot of Genesis I 1-31 and The Book of Jubilee Chapter II 1-16 which tells the steps of the creation process, which we can see, how the earth was created, the sky was formed and decorated, water and creation of life, plants and animals that will become "food" and water that sustains life.

Let me show you the summary of these two books regarding the creation of the heaven and earth,

Day 1

Jubilee version

Creation of Earth and sky, water, light-dark, snow ice thunder, in preparation

Genesis version

Creation of Heaven Earth, Water

Day 2

Jubilee version

Firmament divides the water above and below from the sky

Genesis version

Firmament divides the water above and below from the sky

Day 3

Jubilee version

Separation of water, creation of trees, rivers, land, etc.

Genesis version

Separation of water, creation of trees, rivers, land, etc.

Day 4

Jubilee version

celestial bodies, calendars, food sprout and grow

Genesis version

celestial bodies, calendars, living things (animals)

Day 5

Jubilee version

Deep sea monsters, fish, birds, fruit-bearing trees

Genesis version

Depth sea monsters, fish, birds

Day 6

Jubilee version

Land animals, humans

Genesis version

Land animals, humans, plant foods

So now let see the Quran,

419 Say "You are rejecting the One who has created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. That is the Lord of the worlds."

This verse confirms the 1st and 2nd day of creation of the Genesis and Jubilee versions

4110 And He placed in it anchor <rawasiya> from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in proportion in four days, to satisfy those who ask.

This verse can be seen spreading from the 3rd to the 6th day, where the life support system for humans, namely food and drink was created (established).

4111 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still inclining to blackness <dukhanun>, and He said to it, and to the earth "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said "We come willingly."

Dal-Kha-Nun = inclining to blackness

4112 Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days, and He inspired to every heaven its affair. And We adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

After the creation of the 1st day of heaven,..the sky still tends to be dark <dukhan>,..then on the 4th day, Allah detailed the sky,..with "lamps" (4112). The sky is still dark given lamps, "two great lights" and decorated with stars..

After making the heaven, on the 1st day,.. God then only detailed it on the 4th day, by making celestial lights that rule the night and day,.. and also as a year or calendar calculation... a total of 2 days .

Why is it made like this?

So that we always refer to the information of Allah's books and not to the fantasy. Al-Quran is more appropriate to support the Torah and the Bible than the theories developed by scientists, such as the big bang theory for example.

This method of confirmation would explain that the Qur'an refers to the Bible, and not to the "scientific journals" of scientists which are completely baseless.

Scientific journals will try to carry our fantasies about an explosion without a cause "billions of years ago" while the Bible all agrees that it is only a matter of "thousands of years ago". Six days with Allah is Six thousand years in human terms, let's see how the three books tell us the same thing,

Psalms 90
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2247 And they seek you to hasten the retribution; and God will not break His promise. And a day with your Lord is like one thousand of the years which you count.

Peace

Iyyaka

Peace...
Green highlighted translation is more agreeable and makes sense...
But what could be the size of earth and heavens if you translate it in that manner... Obviously it doesn't seems acceptavle according to science... Coz earth is tiny mote..

Peace Jhkan.

The Qur'an is not a treatise on Science. It aims at guiding and convincing the unbelievers to rally to God alone as their deity (described as the all merciful benefactor).
To do this, it does not hesitate to draw from known stories (religious or not) and from the collective representation of the time of its descent (beginning of the 7th century).

With verse 21,30 taken as an example here, one must realize the operative character of this representation and the power of this image for the men of the time and place, in the 7th century, in arid Arabia. And even if we no longer live in such conditions, it is important to understand what was represented (first step) and to learn from it for today (second step).

So if modern science describes our near and far universe/environment in a way that is quite far from what is in the Qur'an this is not ("more"!) a problem for me.

God bless you all.

jkhan

Peace Jhkan.

The Qur'an is not a treatise on Science. It aims at guiding and convincing the unbelievers to rally to God alone as their deity (described as the all merciful benefactor).
To do this, it does not hesitate to draw from known stories (religious or not) and from the collective representation of the time of its descent (beginning of the 7th century).

With verse 21,30 taken as an example here, one must realize the operative character of this representation and the power of this image for the men of the time and place, in the 7th century, in arid Arabia. And even if we no longer live in such conditions, it is important to understand what was represented (first step) and to learn from it for today (second step).

So if modern science describes our near and far universe/environment in a way that is quite far from what is in the Qur'an this is not ("more"!) a problem for me.

God bless you all.

Thank you..

I or you or anyone knows that QURAN is not a treatise on science ... But look at the verse.. Such similar verses are there in Quran addressing disbelievers to convince... Can we think that disbelievers get convinced by this verse if they compare it with science which is basically for everyone far from truth... How do they perceive which one is truth, the verse in Quran or what is researched and proved by science as they claim? So how can God say " are they still disbelive" and say what He said... God is giving His signs in manifest manner to those who disbelieve that this is the truth of Earth and heavens... So what is the truth?

jkhan

Salaam,
I do believe that the Quran confirms the previous books.

Sura 2130 confirms the story of the creation of the universe in the Book of Genesis, and Allah created a mechanism in the Qur'an so that 2130 is not used to justify theories other than those told in the book of Genesis, such as the Big Bang Theory.

548 And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, confirming what was before between your hands of the Book and a guardian over it.

As usual, a confirmation is never more detailed than what is confirmed. For example, when we confirm a story, we may just say. "yes that's right,.."
and we might add a little information to explain more.

The Qur'an did not come down to recount all the events that have been narrated in the previous books, but just to confirm with some additional information that will strengthen what has been told previously.

Let me show you what I mean, started with this challenge,

754 Your Lord is God who has created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He settled upon the Throne. The night runs away from the day, which seeks it continually; and the sun and the moon and the stars are commissioned by His command; to Him is the creation and the command. Glory to God, Lord of the worlds.

Exodus 20 KJV
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is,

So it is clear that the creation of the heavens and the earth was in six days or six thousand years in our calculations.

Verses 419-12 is a snapshot of Genesis I 1-31 and The Book of Jubilee Chapter II 1-16 which tells the steps of the creation process, which we can see, how the earth was created, the sky was formed and decorated, water and creation of life, plants and animals that will become "food" and water that sustains life.

Let me show you the summary of these two books regarding the creation of the heaven and earth,

Day 1

Jubilee version

Creation of Earth and sky, water, light-dark, snow ice thunder, in preparation

Genesis version

Creation of Heaven Earth, Water

Day 2

Jubilee version

Firmament divides the water above and below from the sky

Genesis version

Firmament divides the water above and below from the sky

Day 3

Jubilee version

Separation of water, creation of trees, rivers, land, etc.

Genesis version

Separation of water, creation of trees, rivers, land, etc.

Day 4

Jubilee version

celestial bodies, calendars, food sprout and grow

Genesis version

celestial bodies, calendars, living things (animals)

Day 5

Jubilee version

Deep sea monsters, fish, birds, fruit-bearing trees

Genesis version

Depth sea monsters, fish, birds

Day 6

Jubilee version

Land animals, humans

Genesis version

Land animals, humans, plant foods

So now let see the Quran,

419 Say "You are rejecting the One who has created the earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. That is the Lord of the worlds."

This verse confirms the 1st and 2nd day of creation of the Genesis and Jubilee versions

4110 And He placed in it anchor <rawasiya> from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in proportion in four days, to satisfy those who ask.

This verse can be seen spreading from the 3rd to the 6th day, where the life support system for humans, namely food and drink was created (established).

4111 Then He settled to the heaven, while it was still inclining to blackness <dukhanun>, and He said to it, and to the earth "Come willingly or unwillingly." They said "We come willingly."

Dal-Kha-Nun = inclining to blackness

4112 Thus, He then made them into seven heavens in two days, and He inspired to every heaven its affair. And We adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

After the creation of the 1st day of heaven,..the sky still tends to be dark <dukhan>,..then on the 4th day, Allah detailed the sky,..with "lamps" (4112). The sky is still dark given lamps, "two great lights" and decorated with stars..

After making the heaven, on the 1st day,.. God then only detailed it on the 4th day, by making celestial lights that rule the night and day,.. and also as a year or calendar calculation... a total of 2 days .

Why is it made like this?

So that we always refer to the information of Allah's books and not to the fantasy. Al-Quran is more appropriate to support the Torah and the Bible than the theories developed by scientists, such as the big bang theory for example.

This method of confirmation would explain that the Qur'an refers to the Bible, and not to the "scientific journals" of scientists which are completely baseless.

Scientific journals will try to carry our fantasies about an explosion without a cause "billions of years ago" while the Bible all agrees that it is only a matter of "thousands of years ago". Six days with Allah is Six thousand years in human terms, let's see how the three books tell us the same thing,

Psalms 90
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2247 And they seek you to hasten the retribution; and God will not break His promise. And a day with your Lord is like one thousand of the years which you count.

Peace

I appreciate you say that you believe that Quran confirms previous books and it is over them a guardian.... Yes that's what Quran says...
But point to note is.. It may well be right when the Quran was revealed... Coz Torah or Injeel was there in tact at least with the believing christian and jews..
But God doesn't confirm anythjng which is corrupted... If you bring total bible and says that Quran confirms it that whatever written in it is true then I will never believe it.. Quran confirms what actually God revealed and Quran never confirms what God never revealed... The book that you bring for reference here Haa many weaknesses ... Something may be right comparing to Quran... But we cannot unfortunately take those books for guidance...
But we do believe in all books that was revealed by God... But honestly I don't think none of the books are available in its true form now except quran... Muhamed said bring Torah and read it to me... So it is clear Torah was not corrupted at the time of Mohamed... Unless he won't say so... Some copies people might have infused.. But still believers of jews and Christian at that time would have had the true Torah and Injeel..

By the way your comparison of Quran and other books doesn't conclude whether six days or eight days...

My understanding is 6 complete days of what God's recognition of days.. It is very clear from 419-12 that First God created the empty Earth in two days... Then He created and completed the earth how it looks now in another two days. Complete four days... So earth comes first of God's creation... Then earth and heaven(singular) were together and separated the single heaven and made it seven heavens and created all what heaven do possess in two days... So sun moon all creation later to earth... When God called Earth and heaven 4111 earth was complete but not heaven(dukhan)... In that manner God completed both of them in 6 days. 754

Since God created earth and its sustenance first before heavens.. It never matches with science its billions of years... Lol

Take it or leave it.. That's what Quran depicts. And God questions do you still not believe... So amazing... I wonder who actually are disbelievers if we not understand the verse..

Iyyaka

To be honest there is an another possibility

"Did not those who denied see that the heavens and the earth were joined and We then separated them?..."
After the separation, water is therefore the element that connects heaven and earth and allows it to be reborn.

=> (1) "joined", not in a state of original chaos, like two entities stuck together but not mixed. Then
=> (2) "disjointed" as explained elsewhere in the text

God is the One who raised the heavens without pillars that you may see..

a descent from Him who created the earth and the heavens high.

And the heavens He has raised up. And He established the scales,

Are you more difficult to create than the sky, which He has built?
And He raised up its vault and gave it form.

And the sky, how it was raised,

jkhan

To be honest there is an another possibility

"Did not those who denied see that the heavens and the earth were joined and We then separated them?..."
After the separation, water is therefore the element that connects heaven and earth and allows it to be reborn.

=> (1) "joined", not in a state of original chaos, like two entities stuck together but not mixed. Then
=> (2) "disjointed" as explained elsewhere in the text

God is the One who raised the heavens without pillars that you may see..

a descent from Him who created the earth and the heavens high.

And the heavens He has raised up. And He established the scales,

Are you more difficult to create than the sky, which He has built?
And He raised up its vault and gave it form.

And the sky, how it was raised,

Peace everyone...

One shouldn't misunderstand the plural and singular heaven mention in 2130 and 4111 respectively ... It is perfect what God has indicated in plural and singular ..

2130 it is plural coz it is explanation of the past with what is as of now. Past with current look.. But God can call all the heavens as single heaven coz heaven is one though its assigned functions are seven.

In 4111 God called it singular heaven coz it was singular and never extended to 7 functional heavens.

Note all verses brother Iyykaka brought forth...
Heaven high ... Isn't earth high without pillars to be honest? That's science. For example.. What is the difference between alleged Mars and Earth.. Both rotating the same Sun.. Is Mars in raised high heavens while Earth not? What actually raised high compared to the height of Earth? Four days creation was Earth and two days creation was rest of the entire heavens... God must be kidding.. Right. Science and QURAN explanation of creation never tally even one tries to prove trillions of time... Don't those disbelive see? See what? Science or God's explanation...

tlihawa

Salaam jkhan,

I appreciate you say that you believe that Quran confirms previous books and it is over them a guardian.... Yes that's what Quran says...
But point to note is.. It may well be right when the Quran was revealed... Coz Torah or Injeel was there in tact at least with the believing christian and jews..

I'm afraid that's not true, Taurat and Injil had been corrupted long before the Quran was revealed. I was told by the Quran, that there had been attempts to write verses of the book with their own hands. And they had hidden the truth, confound the truth with falsehood. So there is no difference between the Taurat and the Injil today and when the Quran was revealed.

275 Did you expect that they would believe with you, when a group of them had heard the words of God then altered them knowingly after having understood?

279 So woe to those who write the Book with their hands then say "This is from God," so that they can purchase with it a cheap price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.

371 "O people of the Book, why do you confound the truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?"

I ever thought, is God unfair to the people of the book who came later?

In the same Quran, Allah recounts how the previous Books have been altered and partially hidden, or mixed with false verses, and on the other hand Allah still commands the people of the book to stick to what has been given to them.

568 Say "O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Taurat and the Injil and what was sent down to you from your Lord." And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.

And when they asked Prophet Muhammad to be the judge in their case, and Allah rebuked them, because they already have the Taurat, which is also guidance and light.

543 And how can they make you their judge when they have the Taurat, in which there is the judgment of God; then they turn away after that. Those are not believers.

Allah did not ask them to use the Quran to judge in their case.

Do you know why?

Because of this,

159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.

Al Quran is not the only reminder. Taurat, Injil, and the hidden books are also reminder.

Allah will preserve reminder in Quran even though there are Hafs and Warsh version, and protect the true meaning even though the world is ruled by interpretations influenced by hadiths.

And the same thing happened with the Taurat and Injil,

I have a friend who claims to be "bible only", and is not influenced by the interpretations of his religious leaders. With the Bible that exists today, he can find that there is no god but Allah, and Jesus is only his messenger. He also believes in the last day, doing good as taught in the "books that are considered corrupted".

Because of this I truly believe in God's justice. I don't like the way of thinking that there is only one way to reach heaven, only through the "best book".

What if I wasn't born into an ummah with the best book given by the God?

How can I accept the fact that there is a group of people who have inherited a book that has been corrupted and are still forced to take guidance from it?

Alhamdulillah, The God I know through the Quran is very fair. He gave the same guidance to each people through their respective books and preserve the reminder in them.

548 And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, affirming what is between your hands of the Book and guardian it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made law, and a well defined way; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so race to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.

I never worry about anything that has been changed in the previous books, because I have the Quran as guardian.

2137 So, if they believe exactly as you have believed, then they are guided; but if they turn away, then they are in opposition and God will suffice you against them, and He is the Hearer, the Knower.

As far as I know, my "bible only" friend believe the same thing as I do. So I never worry about that.

And my faith in God is increasing because I can witness how God's justice is implemented.

Peace

jkhan

Salaam jkhan,
I'm afraid that's not true, Taurat and Injil had been corrupted long before the Quran was revealed. I was told by the Quran, that there had been attempts to write verses of the book with their own hands. And they had hidden the truth, confound the truth with falsehood. So there is no difference between the Taurat and the Injil today and when the Quran was revealed.