Can we be misguided and how?
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Hello Idris,
How is that a wierd interpretation? Personally I see the sun, moon, and planets physically prostrating as not only physically impossible but absurd. Seeing them submit to him makes much more sense.
Ok if it makes sense to you, no problem.
You need to begin quoting verses because it never said he SAW his family do "sujood", they submitted or heard and obeyed to his authority as king, confirming his vision that had shown such, there is no proof in either verses that "sujood" is physical
I think that I said in the beginning of my post that it is my personal view, so its me who knows what I need and what I don't need ) But anyway I see from verse 12100 that what he saw in the dream was seen in the scene, and that's why he said to his father "that" is the interpretation of what I SAW. Again its my personal view, so peace )
Best regards,
sabo -
Peace servant, all.
I kinda liked your previous name, lol, at least it wasnt in capitals or anything, but oh well.
Back on topic, hlatif if you continue to do the traditional salat, do you still face in the 'direction' of Mecca? Because like I said above, it seems to be a major factor in the traditional method, unless you've chosen to do it any random direction?
For a while I was confused and not sure about this method of salat, I didnt know what verses to recite, to bow or not, which direction, I tried them all, and in the end I decided my actions in life were more important than phsyical prostations, and that my intent towards other people, animals and the land around me is what I would be judged on. I still do dua, I read the Quran online/offline whenever I have spare time, and mostly every night before I go to bed, and 'la illaha il Allah' and 'bismilahi rahmani rahim' is on my breath nearly every second of my day, I make a conscious effort to not associate anything with the abstract concept of my Creator, and pray to be guided to the straight path.
Thats all I can do for now, until I learn more knowledge. I'm at peace now, with one book as my reminder and God as my guide, even if there are still a few concepts that are debatable right now, I still feel much more free than before I stumbled onto FM last year, when I was found myself slowly becoming a sunni after years of non-interest in my family's faith. Now I've introduced my parents to the idea of God alone, and that nearly everything they believed in was false, and am pleased to say that their reaction was very positive, they're open minded people (logic thankfully works, i.e - God is not in a cube, our wardrobe does not make us muslims, etc), and I think eventually they will believe fully in what I believe.
God guides whom He will, the Most Merciful.
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Not sure yet, but it could be equated with when you wash yourself before you leave the house, a simply practical thing before you begin to 'salat' whatever the term may really be, obligations, commitments, etc. A main term I think that is derived from the word 'salat' is to 'follow behind' as in follow Islam, etc. And washing your face, arms and feet everyday makes you clean and presentable so you can go about doing that.
Like Natu I'm still not sure if we're to do salat through sunup to sundown or at sunup and at sundown, etc. The learning process continues...
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Salam All, beatnik,
I thank you for asking me your question. I will start by saying that the debate over SALAT was very healthy to me in many ways. The questions that were raised were all thought provoking. I was distressed by how easily some people labelled traditional SALAT as idol worship. This struck me as a form of fundamentalism, and was not productive to the debate.
I do like how you described the way you live your life. I think that it is beautiful and rewarding as you seem to feel. I try to do the same, as well as pray in a physical manner. I feel that the Prayer is the time when I separate myself from everything and have my personal meeting with GOD.
What do I face when I pray. I will answer by addressing two very important words (to me). the first is QIBLA. Literally speaking it means a front of someone or something is facing a front of someone or something. So, when I face a QIBLA, I am trying to be facing GOD, and that is the direction of gaining GOD's acceptance (traditionally in Arabic, what you accept you face and what you refuse, you turn your back to). Other AYAT talk about the WAJH (front/face) of GOD and how people try to face. To me, the front of GOD is the QIBLA and what people are aiming for, is the acceptance of GOD.
2115To Allah belong the east and the West Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.
Here, the translater used presence for WAJH. To me, I would use the word Acceptance for WAJH is the FRONT and is the sign of acceptance.The other word is SHATR. This word is the derivative of the root SH-T-R and it means Divide something in Half. So SHATR, although meaning direction, it really means facing the half of the earth where the MASJID HARAM 2144 is located and not really facing the MASJID itself, nor the KAABA. I live in the US so I face east. When I visit a mosque, I pray with the people in it and when I don't know where the east is, I face any direction, for GOD is all accepting.
That is what I do. I also like what you do. I am not here to judge anyone and I hope that no one, but GOD will judge me. I understand that we are all humans and therefore will make mistakes. I do believe that GOD will forgive those who make honest mistakes (me or others), as long as they are honest with themselves and with GOD and as long as they are open to his words.
Salam
Hussein
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Salaam Hussein,
What you wrote regarding Al Qiblah is really nice. I never gave it a thought! In my mind it has always been a synonym to Kaaba and that's all. Regarding Shadtra, personally, I use my compass wherever I go. Only last Friday I learned from our teacher in the Quran study group that as long as you are facing the right direction towards Mecca then that should be enough as that is what Shadtra means. It doesn?t have to be by the millimetre (the way I usually do it!)!
Although it is simple language I don't know why I never thought of it!?
So thank you for sharing that.Salaams
Taj
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peace be upon you All,
On the salat (slw) issue, I think its important not to go to extremes and end up missing the point.
Some extreme views might include
to think it must be completely non-physical,
to think it must be completely physical,
to think everyone must uphold slw in exactly the same way,
to believe they must face the "Kabba" in "Mecca" to the mm (if one performs the traditional interpretation of slw)**in truth, they will be facing space and not the "Kabba" in "Mecca". Also, basic pythagoras tells us that if one is off by one degree they can end up over a hundred miles off depending on where they are.
The basic meaning of slw is to go/turn towards in a positive/close manner. When one calls/petitions The God, it can be described as slw , just as non-believers can uphold slw by obeying the law of the reading/system , and lastly The God can send many slw upon us .
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
Thank you for your considered reply and hlatif's description of their salat.
I personally don't connect the qibla with salat per se as there is no direct connection anywhere. The qibla is in my view faced always at all times and in any place by a believer.
For physical salat the form is not as important as content. Using compasses to find a global direction is wildly innacurate; there are localised magnetic deviation differences and also geodesic considerations to take into account. The Earth is not the flat place that a Mercator projection makes it out to be.
What is important is that God says that to Him belongs the East and the West (and all directions between for that matter) but as they are the two that are mentioned then it is quite straightforward to face either east or west wherever one is. The exact direction is not important in my opinion only.
Peace.
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Peace TAJ n all,
Only last Friday I learned from our teacher in the Quran study group that as long as you are facing the right direction towards Mecca then that should be enough as that is what Shadtra means. It doesn?t have to be by the millimetre (the way I usually do it!)!
Forget millimetres, it's almost impossible to set yourself to face the whole city let alone the rock, especially if you're in a country as far as say, U.S. Example, in a mosque, none of the people in a straight line are facing the same point. And this is all, if the earth was flat to begin with! idea Just thought I'd mention this point.On the other hand, in regard to the heading of this thread... we are misguided in more ways than one. If we think we have the power to guide ourselves or each other... think again.
Peace.
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Peace be upon you Servant,
I also experienced the WITHDRAWAL, but that is over. Do not concentrate on your FEELINGS, they will mislead you, just like a drug addict who FEELS loss after not taking a hit.
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Do not concentrate on your FEELINGS, they will mislead you, just like a drug addict who FEELS loss after not taking a hit.
Good example! D Emotions can be misleading. Satan may inspire some fancy words, and we may take a liking to them, it does not mean that it's right. wink
- Warfare has been decreed for you while you hate it; and perhaps you may hate something while it is good for you, and perhaps you may love something while it is bad for you; God knows while you do not know.
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Peace All!
This is a very interesting thread and i find people go through the same questionnings as they progress (inchallah)
SalikaDC wrote
In the past, I conducted it the sunni way (without offering prayers to Rasulallah) and followed the prostration with study of the Qur'an. Since I have no proof that the WAY sunnis pray in Salaat contradict the Qur'an, i decided to do so
That's also what i used to do for about 15 years but wondering so often why i didn't "feel" it brought me something. Also, i used to get upset at my kids when they disturbed me, hide someplace in order to pray at my workplace aso...
About 6 months ago, thanks to free-minds, my understanding changed, and i passed from 5 to 3 and very soon 2 "salat" - and as long as i can do them in tranquility, i really feel they bring me a lot of strenghth and peace.
Now, i don't even do these regularly, but only if i can make my sessions in tranquility, no kids disturbing the concentration, no work obligations aso. Because if not, my salat would become again as mechanical as it used to be...and i now consider that the "rest" kids, work aso, is salat "commitments" too. These are obligations i have to respect and if the god does not need my salat, my kids need my attention and i need my job....
Truth/servant asked
Can I ask how many people still perform physical salat and whether it brings you too the peace that I feel in doing it. Please share as this is an important issue to me right now. Thank you all in advance.So yes, i still do physical salat when possible and it brings me peace. Prostrating, even if it can be understood in different manners, is not prohibited.
The qibla i try to establish before i pray is "inner peace", i use a technique making me feel how small i actually am in order to humble myself and try to feel part of the whole - physical direction is no issue any longer.
Never prayed in a "official" mosque though - too much idol worship. There is a sura in quran saying "do not pray in such a mosque" ! (Zenje or Marie please, your idea
hlatif said above
I understand that we are all humans and therefore will make mistakes. I do believe that GOD will forgive those who make honest mistakes (me or others), as long as they are honest with themselves and with GOD and as long as they are open to his words.
That's all i hope for!
Elke
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Salaam Zein,
Peace TAJ n all,
Only last Friday I learned from our teacher in the Quran study group that as long as you are facing the right direction towards Mecca then that should be enough as that is what Shadtra means. It doesn?t have to be by the millimetre (the way I usually do it!)!
Forget millimetres.I guess I should ?
On the other hand, in regard to the heading of this thread... we are misguided in more ways than one. If we think we have the power to guide ourselves or each other... think again.
But we never doubt ourselves. We always think that we are on the right track even if that track differed from the previous one!
Taj
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Never prayed in a "official" mosque though - too much idol worship. There is a sura in quran saying "do not pray in such a mosque" ! (Zenje or Marie please, your idea
7218 And know that all Masjids are for Allah. (Adoration, prostration, submission is due to Allah alone). Hence, invoke not anyone along with Allah. (917). (?Masjid? = Mosque = Places of worship = Collective acts of Prostration = Ways of Adoration = Obedience of Divine Commands = Centers of administering the Divine System).
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Peace again everyone,
I thought about the misguidance angle on this one and the responses from Zein, Kyle and mz357 regarding salat being a drug are interesting. I will start a new thread on it as I feel I have some important statements against such thinking.
Regards.
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Salaamun alaikum all,
My 2 cents on the subject
The purpose of Aqeemu Salat is remembrance and glorification of Allah
?I am God, there is no god but Me, so serve Me and hold the Salat for My remembrance.? (2014)
?Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in your Salat, nor too quite; but seek a path in between. And Say ?Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.? (The Message 17110-111)Salat is both physical and non-physical and is for the purpose of turning/ going towards Allah for His remembrance and glorification so that we can bring forth the purification within ourselves and be righteous.
THE PHYSICAL PARTS OF SALAT
IMO Salat especially when it is mentioned as "Aqeemu Salat" is definitely a physical act in addition to the non-physical aspect. Following are my different proofs from Al-Quran
- Even if Salat is considered to be "only" oration of Al-Quran, "oration" is a physical act. Especially when Allah has asked us to do it in a moderate tone thereby making it definitely "physical"
?Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in your Salat nor too quite; but seek a path in between.? (17110) .......... definitely "physical"
- We are supposed to "stand" for Salat, which is another physical act
?And if thou are with them and you hold the Salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet ?Yusaloo? come and ?Yusaloo? with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. ( 4102)
?The Angels called to him while he was standing 'Yusali' in the temple enclosure ?God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright.?? (340)
?Preserve the Salawat, and the balanced Salat, and stand devoutly for God. But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.? (2237-23
And those who stay awake for their Lord, in prostration and standing. (2564)
As for one who is meditating in the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord. Say "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only those who possess understanding will remember. (399)
The hypocrites seek to deceive God, while He is deceiving them; and if they stand up to salat, they do so lazily, only to show the people; they do not remember God except very little. (4142) ........ all definitely physical acts
- During Salat we are supposed to face the Qiblah which makes it a physical act as "facing" a certain "physical" direction is "physical"
?And We inspired to Moses and his brother 'Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point and hold the Salat. And give good news to the believers.'? (1088 )
Now that the above ayat establishes that "Qiblah" is for the purpose of Salat, the following ayat is another proof of Salat being a physical act
?We see the shifting of your face towards the sky, We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you ?You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.? Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.? (2144)
In the light of 1088 the highlated parts of 2144 are "physical" acts
- Prostration as is mentioned in the following ayat is definitely physical
Say "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating, and they Say "Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled." (1710
In the light of 17108 when we look at the following ayat it is obvious that the prostration in the following ayat is part of Salat making it a physical act
?And if you are with them and you hold the Salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet ?Yusaloo? come and ?Yusaloo? with you (4102)
- Ruku' as mentioned in Al-Quran is a physical act
And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling (raki'an), and repented. (3824)
and this act of ruku' is part of Salat as per the following ayat
But your ally is God, His messenger, and those who believed who keep up the ?salat?, and give the ?zakat?, while they are ?raki?oun.? (555)
- Salat requires cleanliness.......why would a "non-physical process" require "physical" cleanliness?
?O you who believe, if you rise to attend the Salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. (58 ) ........... sounds as "physical" as "physical" can be !!
Some say that the following ayat is against a "physical" Salat
?Preserve the places of support, and the balanced Salat, and stand devoutly for God. But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.? (The Message 2237-23
They say that how can you establish a "physical" Salat when you are walking or riding. What they forget is that the "physical" act of oration of Al-Quran can be done while walking or riding. All this ayat means IMO is that in state of worry we dont have to stand stationary, or do ruku' or sujud but we can only recite from Al-Quran to remember and glorify Allah which is the main purpose of Salat.
THE NON-PHYSICAL PARTS OF SALAT
However I do believe in the non-physical aspect of Salat also which is to think and ponder and meditate on Allah's Words and to submit to them in our daily lives (the abstract meaning of sujud). So in my opinion the whole process of Salat is a combination of physical and non-physical.
THE INNOVATIONS AND FABRICATIONS
We are to definitely refrain from mentioning anyone other than Allah in our Salat or using phrases or words not prescribed in Al-Quran by the Great Teacher Himself (example the phrases "Allahu Akbar", "Ameen", "Assalamu alaikum" are nowhere in Al-Quran) as well as the folding of hands, and the traditional "bowing down" version of ruku' as well as many raka' and facing Makkah.
LETS NOT DIVIDE AMONGST OURSELVES
We should accept our individual differences of opinion of the exact interpretations of the different concepts in Al-Quran as long as we do not indulge in idol worship and remain sincere and open minded to the truth and remain united and not divide ourselves into sects. The minimum requirement to be successful is as following and as long as we all uphold that we belong to the same Deen
"Those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes; whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works, then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve." (569)
Any comments and criticisms from the learned and the knowledgable would be highly appreciated. I just discovered God Alone about 2 months ago and am still in state of shock and repenting that I was misguided all my previous life. May Allah guide all of us.
Peace,
Tanveer
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peace be upon you tanveer,
Firstly, welcome to the forum.
I agree that slw has physical and non-physical elements.
I liked your analysis but I felt points 3, 4 and 5 were weak. I feel you cannot conclusively deduce what you deduced based on the evidence you provided.
In brief
3) if there is unity in direction, it doesn't necessarily have to be physical.
4) sjd = acknowledge
5) people give zakat while bowing? rk3 = incline/humbleMy view can be found on my site.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum brother Wakas,
Thank you for your excellent comments. I am a big fan of your analysis of Al-Quran. I had already read your views on SLW before and your understanding of SLW is closest to my understanding on this forum. However a few points
- I agree that SJD can mean acknowledgement/submission and some ayat in Al-Quran support that meaning clearly
2219 Did you not see that to God submit what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees and what moves, and many of mankind, and many who have deserved the retribution
However the meaning of a word in a book depends on its context and its usage in other places which support that meaning. In 17108 Allah is clearly describing a physical SJD in which when Al-Quran is recited to the people with knowledge, they fall to their chins SJD. The ayat following also clearly means a physical SJD
17109 And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
Falling on chins and crying are clearly physical acts. The 2 ayat following are clearly about SLW
17110 Say "Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names." And do not be too loud in thy contact-method, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 And Say "Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness." And glorify Him greatly.and in SLW we are required to recite Al-Quran which can lead to a Mumin falling on the chin crying with humility while holding SLW which is a strong proof that a physical SJD can be part of SLW.
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Ruku' in 3824 is definitely physical and is a physical act of falling down kneeling that a Mumin can perform while seeking forgiveness from Allah and repenting. 555 shows that a Mumin can hold SLW and bring forth Zakat while raki'oun. Here I agree that Ruku' could mean being humble also but my point is that a Mumin can also fall down kneeling to seek forgiveness from Allah and repent while holding SLW thereby proving that a physical Ruku' can be part of SLW. This clearly is a strong proof that if we do a physical ruku' while holding SLW it cannot be against Al-Quran, provided it is "falling down kneeling" and not the traditional "bowing".
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I agree that my Qiblah argument is weak as Qiblah can be non physical also as proved by excellent arguments by brother Ayman on a thread elsewhere, however brother Hlatif has an excellent argument on another thread based on the meaning of "SHATR" that we can face towards the half of the Earth containg the Qiblah thereby implying a physical Qiblah. However that would not explain which way to face if someone is on Earth exactly opposite the location of Qiblah whether to face East or West, or if someone is in outer space or another planet. IMHO the direction to face is not that important according to Allah
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and he gives money out of love to the near relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves, and he holds the Salat, and brings forth Zakat; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.
Interestingly 2177 could be another argument in favor of non physical Qiblah as it clearly says that holding Salat is part of piety but facing east or west is not piety thereby proving that facing east or west cannot be part of holding Salat !!!!
Peace,
Tanveer
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peace be upon you brother tanveer,
Ahh, I see what you are saying a physical SJD can be part of slw. I cant really argue against that. I thought you were implying its obligatory.
i should have said the core of SJD is to acknowledge, its not equal to it. i apologise, i was being brief because i had little time when making that post.
Whilst 3824 may be a physical RK3. I see no such indication from 555, especially not while in the act of slw (if you feel in this sign its an act). This to me is extremely clear, unless I'm missing something.
I cant recall the shatr argument by brother hussein. I am studying the term bayt at the moment, and I guess I will cover qibla in that. 2177 is pretty explicit in stating a specific direction is irrelevant.
on a side note, im not a big fan of 'aqimoo' being translated as 'hold' (normally used in front of slw). it is a very interesting word and i believe the connotation is uphold/maintain, i.e. its an ongoing thing, 'hold' to me seems to imply a one off event. Brother Anwar wrote a nice bit about it, in which he included the meaning 'vivify'.
Wakas
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Salaamun alaikum brother Wakas,
Thank you for your enlightening comments and clarifications. You are right with aqimoo meaning uphold. That is what I meant to write but in my hurry overlooked it and thank you for bringing that to my attention. It should be UPHOLD Salat instead of hold in my post.
You are also right that the Ruku' in 555 is not necessarily physical. My point is that while upholding Salat a Mumin can do the physical Ruku' of 3824 and fall down kneeling to seek forgiveness from Allah and repent, or uphold Salat while in a kneeling position and I dont think Allah will get upset over that and theoretically that will not contradict 555 either.
Finally 4102 is about upholding Salat and the words "and when they have prostrated" seem to imply that SJD is an obligatory part of Salat
?And if thou are with them and you hold the Salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard behind you; and let a group who has not yet ?Yusaloo? come and ?Yusaloo? with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. ( 4102)
Thank you once again and God bless,
Tanveer
