Argument against Quran Only Islam
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Hello,
I was in a discussion with a Sunni today about, guess what, Quran alone muslims which I am. His arguments made little sense to me and we were going around in circles until he came up with following argument in response to me saying the Quran is complete, as is said in 638 "We did not leave anything out of this book".
He said that it is complete but came up with following analogy If a bucket is filled with water and this represents being complete, and then said bucket is emptied there will always remain a drop or some remnant of water in it, in other words there may always remain some knowledge in it that I did not understand due to my own wrongdoing. After all, I am not perfect, only God is. So I would take in other sources to complete my knowledge, this may in some cases be a dictionary to understand a word, historical sources or the Hadith.
In that way the Hadith are nothing other than an additional resource to extract knowledge from it and would not mean it is an additional source of Islamic law. Considering I would give it the same scrutiny as any other source and do NOT regard it as an additional source of law but rather as a resource to extract further meaning that I did not first understand from the Quran (which could potentially result in further law that was not immediately understandable), would there be anything wrong with that?
Of course God says that the Quran is the best explanation and asks us which other Hadith we want to use other than the Quran, obviously the answer is none. However, in that case we wouldn't be following the Hadith but use it as a resource to extract meaning, similarly to when we look up words in dictionaries to understand their meaning.
I feel like I might have went wrong somewhere in this logic but I cannot find a problem with this argument. What do you think?Also, if you have time, what do you think about this? https//primaquran.com/2020/09/17/nothing-left-out-of-this-book-the-manipulation-of-the-quran-only-religion/
Thanks
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Peace,
The best way to handle a ‘hadeether’ is to ask them firstly whether they believe in the punishment of stoning an adulterer to death. Make sure they answer that question clearly.
If they say yes they believe it, then they are accepting hadeeth as law. If they say no, then they are disbelievers of the hadeeth and if they can ditch the stoning, they can ditch the entire compendium like a rock.
As for using anything as a reference, the problem with using Classical Arabic dictionaries or millenia old stories is like consulting the books of Galen for information on treatment of medical disease today. Or consulting the manuals for COBOL or Fortran when faced with a modern web application.
It is outdated and represents the tradition of forefathers.
The Koran is a live text for humanity. Let those who wish to advance study it for themselves in the context of their time rather than their forefathers.
So the question for you is, what do you think about stoning an adulterer to death?
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The verse youre referring to does not use the word "this book" it says 'Al kitab' or 'The Book' which is not equivalent to Al Quran/ The Recital.
Al Quran is described as a tafseel of Al Kitab so I don't think it's accurate to equate the two though it is a common mistake made in both traditional and modern interpretations.
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Peace,
The best way to handle a ‘hadeether’ is to ask them firstly whether they believe in the punishment of stoning an adulterer to death. Make sure they answer that question clearly.
If they say yes they believe it, then they are accepting hadeeth as law. If they say no, then they are disbelievers of the hadeeth and if they can ditch the stoning, they can ditch the entire compendium like a rock.
As for using anything as a reference, the problem with using Classical Arabic dictionaries or millenia old stories is like consulting the books of Galen for information on treatment of medical disease today. Or consulting the manuals for COBOL or Fortran when faced with a modern web application.
It is outdated and represents the tradition of forefathers.
The Koran is a live text for humanity. Let those who wish to advance study it for themselves in the context of their time rather than their forefathers.
So the question for you is, what do you think about stoning an adulterer to death?
Thanks. Unfortunately, sometimes they will come up with a million ways to not see the point you are making, completely ignoring your arguments, e.g. Him "You agree the prophet was perfect, the best human?"
Me "I don't know that"
Him "How can you say that?"
Me "The Quran doesn't say he's the best human but it says that there is no difference between prophets"
Him "We're talking about God's prophet, do you think God would choose someone who isn't perfect?
Me brickwall
I know there's no malice involved but it is hilarious how some take the role of a missionary while completely rejecting any rationalism with regards to the one (and in their opinion main) text of islam. -
The verse youre referring to does not use the word "this book" it says 'Al kitab' or 'The Book' which is not equivalent to Al Quran/ The Recital.
Al Quran is described as a tafseel of Al Kitab so I don't think it's accurate to equate the two though it is a common mistake made in both traditional and modern interpretations.
Thank you too! So does that mean the Quran is complete or not? Is there any other verse referring to this or the message?
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GOD would have clearly told us if other than Qoran was needed for our salvation.
But the fact is Qoran alone and GOD s words alone are the only authority and means to salvation
619
Say, "Whose testimony is the greatest?" Say, "God's. He is the witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preach it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that there are other gods* beside God." Say, "I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry."6;51
And preach with this (Quran) to those who reverence the summoning before their Lord - they have none beside Him as a Lord and Master, nor an intercessor - that they may attain salvation.6114
Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.6115
The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.5045
We are fully aware of everything they utter, while you have no power over them. Therefore, remind with this Quran, those who reverence My warnings.Has GOD forgotten hadiths and sunna or any other man made words that helps our salvation? No,,because there is none that can except GOD s words -Qoran-.
And GOD did not forget to tell us that His words can never run out . and Qoran contains all the words we need.18109
Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."3127
If all the trees on earth were made into pens, and the ocean supplied the ink, augmented by seven more oceans, the words of God would not run out. God is Almighty, Most Wise.Up to us whether we listen to GOD s words or men s words. GOD has closed that argument 100%,. Whoever brings the argument to follow any other source besides Qoran is ignoring GOD completely.and have gone for another authority/source .i.e idols/men s words.
GOD bless.
Peace. -
Thanks. Unfortunately, sometimes they will come up with a million ways to not see the point you are making, completely ignoring your arguments, e.g. Him "You agree the prophet was perfect, the best human?"
Me "I don't know that"
Him "How can you say that?"
Me "The Quran doesn't say he's the best human but it says that there is no difference between prophets"
Him "We're talking about God's prophet, do you think God would choose someone who isn't perfect?
Me brickwallBut God chose someone who was not perfect, this is clearly stated by Qur'an itself
3164 God has bestowed grace upon the believers by sending them a messenger from among themselves (ba'atha fihim rasulan min anfusihim) reciting His revelations and purifying them and teaching them the Book and the wisdom, and they were before in manifest darkness.
So the believers were before receiving guidance in manifest error, and the messenger was among themselves, he didn't come from outside.
Therefore he was also in manifest error like them before being chosen by God.
How then the messenger could have been perfect if he was in error as well ? -
He said that it is complete but came up with following analogy If a bucket is filled with water and this represents being complete, and then said bucket is emptied there will always remain a drop or some remnant of water in it, in other words there may always remain some knowledge in it that I did not understand due to my own wrongdoing. After all, I am not perfect, only God is. So I would take in other sources to complete my knowledge, this may in some cases be a dictionary to understand a word, historical sources or the Hadith.
This explanation would be rejected by the majority of traditionalists. This can be seen with the simple example of solat (prayer). The Quran only specifies 2 or 3 (depending how you translate) daily prayers, and most of the ritualistic movements that most muslims carry out is not there at all. How muslims pray today is almost entirely taken from the hadith. So this is a clear case of the hadith providing standalone, additional knowledge that muslims then take to be divine revelation - on a par with Quranic revelation.
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This explanation would be rejected by the majority of traditionalists. This can be seen with the simple example of solat (prayer). The Quran only specifies 2 or 3 (depending how you translate) daily prayers, and most of the ritualistic movements that most muslims carry out is not there at all. How muslims pray today is almost entirely taken from the hadith. So this is a clear case of the hadith providing standalone, additional knowledge that muslims then take to be divine revelation - on a par with Quranic revelation.
They have stages. Typically it starts with "we found no one in history who rejected hadiths". Then they will tell you you might be missing out at least something by rejecting hadiths. After that they will tell you to go for those that dont contradict the Quran. Then comes " just do chain research if you want to be careful". Next is how it is important to go for sahih hadiths. After that you must accept Bukhari to be above God. Then the other 5 and that is followed by others like ibn hanbal. Lastly, every single weak hadith. Doesnt matter if it was made in Australia some 3 years ago! This is called atheism gone wild.
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Do not worry.
GOD Alone and scripture only guidance will prevail. We all get tried equallyYou will certainly be tested, through your money and your lives, and you will hear from those who received the scripture, and from the idol worshipers, a lot of insult. If you steadfastly persevere and lead a righteous life, this will prove the strength of your faith.
لَتُبلَوُنَّ فى أَموٰلِكُم وَأَنفُسِكُم وَلَتَسمَعُنَّ مِنَ الَّذينَ أوتُوا الكِتٰبَ مِن قَبلِكُم وَمِنَ الَّذينَ أَشرَكوا أَذًى كَثيرًا وَإِن تَصبِروا وَتَتَّقوا فَإِنَّ ذٰلِكَ مِن عَزمِ الأُمورِWe need to pass GOD s admission test after all!
God took a covenant from those who received the scripture "You shall proclaim it to the people, and never conceal it." But they disregarded it behind their backs, and traded it away for a cheap price. What a miserable trade.
وَإِذ أَخَذَ اللَّهُ ميثٰقَ الَّذينَ أوتُوا الكِتٰبَ لَتُبَيِّنُنَّهُ لِلنّاسِ وَلا تَكتُمونَهُ فَنَبَذوهُ وَراءَ ظُهورِهِم وَاشتَرَوا بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَليلًا فَبِئسَ ما يَشتَرونَThey conceal Qoran and proclaim hadiths and nonsense to the people? If you say there is a verse that contradicts your hadith ,they say that verse is "Mnsoukh! disregard it. Well discard GOD s authority then?
However some followers of the previous scriptures do believe in God, and in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed to them. They reverence God, and they never trade away God's revelations for a cheap price. These will receive their recompense from their Lord. God is the most efficient in reckoning.
So why trade GOD s revelations with any other man s books/hadiths/source?
GOD bless you all.
Peace.
