Other Wahi than the quran ?

wildguest1956

Peace everybody,

Are there, according to you, different kinds of wahi ?

The Meaning of Wahy
The word awha, from which 'wahy' (revelation) is derived, occurs in a number of shades of meaning in the Qur'an, each of them indicating the main underlying idea of inspiration directing or guiding someone. In each example below, the italicised words in the translation are forms of the root word wahy in the original text of the Qur'an

Guidance in natural intuition
'so we sent this inspiration to the mother of Moses . . .' (287)
Guidance in natural instinct
'and thy Lord taught the bee to build its cells in hills, on trees and in (man's) habitations' (166
Guidance by signs
'So Zakaria came out to his people from his chamber he told them by signs to celebrate God's praises in the morning and in the evening' (1911)
Guidance from evil
'Likewise did we make for every messenger an enemy evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception ...' (6112)
Guidance from God
'Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message) ...' (812)

Means of Revelation
Wahy in the sense of 'revelation' is guidance from God for His creation, brought by the Prophets, who received the word from God through one of the means mentioned in the following Qur'anic verse
'It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by sending of a messenger to reveal with God's permission what God wills for He is Most High, Most Wise' (4251)
Means of revelation are

Inspiration, e.g. in a dream (see 37102, where it is related that Ibrahim receives guidance in a vision, while asleep, to sacrifice his son).
Speech hidden away (see 278, where it is related that God spoke to Musa from the fire).
Words (speech) sent through a special messenger from God (see 297, where it is related that God sent the Angel Gabriel as the messenger to Muhammad to reveal His message).

http//www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Denffer_uaq/Ch1S3.htm

loli

peace loli.
yes u r right . , Muhammad also recieved revelation other than the koran.

Peace Saladin,

Maybe it helps to notice that even the private conversation between God and Muhammad is recorded in The Reading. Example for the case of the blind man and the prophet's wife giving away "secrets".

This verses are only meant for Muhammad, was it meant for his followers?
But it is still recorded in the Quran, So if the prophet receive anything else other than the Quran, dont you think that it will be recorded in the Quran? even personal wahy?

Peace

Fahad1

Peace Saladin,

Maybe it helps to notice that even the private conversation between God and Muhammad is recorded in The Reading. Example for the case of the blind man and the prophet's wife giving away "secrets".

This verses are only meant for Muhammad, was it meant for his followers?
But it is still recorded in the Quran, So if the prophet receive anything else other than the Quran, dont you think that it will be recorded in the Quran? even personal wahy?

Peace

peace loli.
the personal wahy doesnt necessarily have to be recorded in the koran ,although a number of them have been recorded . yes , the personel revelation was only for the prophet or sometimes for his contemporary people .

some examples

All?h has certainly helped you at Badr while you were weak. So, fear All?h so that you may be grateful. When you (O Prophet) were saying to the believers, ?Shall it not suffice you that your Lord shall aid you with three thousand angels being sent down? Why not? If you observe patience and fear All?h and they come to you in this their heat, your Lord shall aid you with five thousand angels having distinct marks?? And All?h did not make it but a good news for you so that your hearts might be satisfied. And there is no help except from All?h, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (3123-126)

this good news of sending down angels is not given in the koran . koran only tells that God gave the good news .

And when All?h promised you that one of the two groups shall be for you. (87)

the promise is not found in the koran .

When you were saying to the one whom All?h had blessed and whom you had blessed, (i.e. Zaid, before he divorced Zainab), ?Keep to you your wife and fear All?h,? and you were hiding in your heart what All?h was to disclose and you were fearing people, and All?h has more right to be feared by you. So, when Zaid finished with her, We made you marry her, so that there may remain no restriction on the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons when they have finished with them. And the order of All?h had to be done. (3337)

3337 tells that God made Muhammad marry Zaid's former wife . but koran gives no such order to Muhammad . the order was given in some personal revelation .

Those remaining behind will say, when you set forth after spoils to acquire them, ?Let us follow you,?- desiring to change the words of All?h. Say, ?You shall not follow us; so All?h has said earlier.? (4815)

"Allah has said earlier"? where ? not in the koran . but through personal wahy .

peace .
fahad.

loli

arrow Thanx saladin. )

wildguest1956

Peace Saladin,

Maybe it helps to notice that even the private conversation between God and Muhammad is recorded in The Reading. Example for the case of the blind man and the prophet's wife giving away "secrets".

This verses are only meant for Muhammad, was it meant for his followers?
But it is still recorded in the Quran, So if the prophet receive anything else other than the Quran, dont you think that it will be recorded in the Quran? even personal wahy?

Peace

peace loli.
the personal wahy doesnt necessarily have to be recorded in the koran ,although a number of them have been recorded . yes , the personel revelation was only for the prophet or sometimes for his contemporary people .

some examples

All?h has certainly helped you at Badr while you were weak. So, fear All?h so that you may be grateful. When you (O Prophet) were saying to the believers, Shall it not suffice you that your Lord shall aid you with three thousand angels being sent down? Why not? If you observe patience and fear All?h and they come to you in this their heat, your Lord shall aid you with five thousand angels having distinct marks? And All?h did not make it but a good news for you so that your hearts might be satisfied. And there is no help except from All?h, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (3123-126)

this good news of sending down angels is not given in the koran . koran only tells that God gave the good news .

And when All?h promised you that one of the two groups shall be for you. (87)

the promise is not found in the koran .

When you were saying to the one whom All?h had blessed and whom you had blessed, (i.e. Zaid, before he divorced Zainab), Keep to you your wife and fear All?h, and you were hiding in your heart what All?h was to disclose and you were fearing people, and All?h has more right to be feared by you. So, when Zaid finished with her, We made you marry her, so that there may remain no restriction on the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons when they have finished with them. And the order of All?h had to be done. (3337)

3337 tells that God made Muhammad marry Zaid's former wife . but koran gives no such order to Muhammad . the order was given in some personal revelation .

Those remaining behind will say, when you set forth after spoils to acquire them, Let us follow you,- desiring to change the words of All?h. Say, You shall not follow us; so All?h has said earlier. (4815)

"Allah has said earlier"? where ? not in the koran . but through personal wahy .

peace .
fahad.

Peace Saladin,

Do you think hadith qudsi can exist ?

Qudsi means holy, or pure. There are some reports from the Prophet Muhammad where he relates to the people what God has said (says) or did (does), but this information is not part of the Qur'an. Such a report is called hadith qudsi, e.g.

Abu Huraira reported that Allah's messenger said
'Allah, Mighty and Exalted is He, said If My servant likes to meet me, I like to meet him, and if he dislikes to meet Me, I dislike to meet him.'
http//www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Denffer_uaq/Ch1S2.htm

salikahDC

Do you think hadith qudsi can exist ?

Qudsi means holy, or pure. There are some reports from the Prophet Muhammad where he relates to the people what God has said (says) or did (does), but this information is not part of the Qur'an. Such a report is called hadith qudsi

Peace JM, all

Although you asked Saladin, I hope you don't mind me responding oops
First of all, I suppose it comes down to a person's definition and perception of "holy" and "pure". For my arguement's sake

Pure-Free of foreign elements.
Containing nothing inappropriate or extraneous

Holy-Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred

In regards to Hadith Qudsi Before we can attribute anything as being "holy" or "pure", we must first prove that it is TRUE. If you have no proof of its validity, then how can you say that it is "pure" ? Anything (idealogies, rituals, cultural norms) extraneous or contradicting Al Qur'an cannot be "holy" (see above definitions).

Personally, the only sayings and actions of The Prophet that I have proven to be 100% accurate, pure, and holy are the words and actions found in the Qur'an...even when Rasullah makes mistakes in his actions (i.e. Surah 80 and the blind man), the report of these actions and sayings are "pure" and "holy" based on the aforementioned definition of these adjectives.
Today, extra Quranic Hadith cannot be "holy" because it's entire existance is extraneous from Al Qur'an and validity is difficult to prove. However, could Hadith Qudsi have existed back in Rasulallah's time? Very interesting question...

wildguest1956

Do you think hadith qudsi can exist ?

Qudsi means holy, or pure. There are some reports from the Prophet Muhammad where he relates to the people what God has said (says) or did (does), but this information is not part of the Qur'an. Such a report is called hadith qudsi

Peace JM, all

Although you asked Saladin, I hope you don't mind me responding ops
First of all, I suppose it comes down to a person's definition and perception of "holy" and "pure". For my arguement's sake

Pure-Free of foreign elements.
Containing nothing inappropriate or extraneous

Holy-Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred

In regards to Hadith Qudsi Before we can attribute anything as being "holy" or "pure", we must first prove that it is TRUE. If you have no proof of its validity, then how can you say that it is "pure" ? Anything (idealogies, rituals, cultural norms) extraneous or contradicting Al Qur'an cannot be "holy" (see above definitions).

Personally, the only sayings and actions of The Prophet that I have proven to be 100% accurate, pure, and holy are the words and actions found in the Qur'an...even when Rasullah makes mistakes in his actions (i.e. Surah 80 and the blind man), the report of these actions and sayings are "pure" and "holy" based on the aforementioned definition of these adjectives.
Extra Quranic Hadith cannot be "holy" because it's entire existance is extraneous from Al Qur'an.

Peace salikahDC,

I'm agreed with you.

But why would God have revealed something outside the quran, without garanteing its preservation ?

Andya_Primanda

I think we can reverse the question

Why would anyone want to claim that something other than the Qur'an is actually God's word?

Fahad1

Peace Saladin,

Do you think hadith qudsi can exist ?

Qudsi means holy, or pure. There are some reports from the Prophet Muhammad where he relates to the people what God has said (says) or did (does), but this information is not part of the Qur'an. Such a report is called hadith qudsi, e.g.

Abu Huraira reported that Allah's messenger said
'Allah, Mighty and Exalted is He, said If My servant likes to meet me, I like to meet him, and if he dislikes to meet Me, I dislike to meet him.'
http//www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Denffer_uaq/Ch1S2.htm

salam JM.
i dont believe in the "hadith qudsi" contained in the hadith books . there were revelations besides the koran but the "hadith qudsi" are not necessarily true . we have no proof for that . nor are we supposed to uphold other teachings besides the koran .

But why would God have revealed something outside the quran, without garanteing its preservation ?

God did send revelations outside the koran as we have seen in the verses . but why do u think it is necessary to guarantee its preservation ?! that shouldnt be a question . God also revealed other books before the koran , but did not preserve them . only koran's preservation was guaranteed , because only koran is to be followed for all times , not other hadiths besides it .

salam.

loli

Peace Saladin

you wrote

All?h has certainly helped you at Badr while you were weak. So, fear All?h so that you may be grateful. When you (O Prophet) were saying to the believers, ?Shall it not suffice you that your Lord shall aid you with three thousand angels being sent down? Why not? If you observe patience and fear All?h and they come to you in this their heat, your Lord shall aid you with five thousand angels having distinct marks?? And All?h did not make it but a good news for you so that your hearts might be satisfied. And there is no help except from All?h, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (3123-126)

this good news of sending down angels is not given in the koran . koran only tells that God gave the good news .

By the wordings in this ayat, it can be said that this ayat was sent down after the Badr.
I think the Good news is the angels coming to help the Prophet itself in the war. As far i can see the "IT" in the ayat refers to the angels coming down helping the Prophet. what do you think?

peace.

jonny_k

By the wordings in this ayat, it can be said that this ayat was sent down after the Badr.
I think the Good news is the angels coming to help the Prophet itself in the war. As far i can see the "IT" in the ayat refers to the angels coming down helping the Prophet. what do you think?

peace.

Khi- The verse talks in past tense indicating tht the Prophet ALREADY delivered tht message be4 it came into Quran. Look at tht verse again
GOD has GRANTED you victory at Badr, despite your weakness. Therefore, you shall observe GOD, to show your appreciation.
When you told the believers, "Is it not enough that your Lord supports you with three thousand angels, sent down?"
So this shows tht this was uttered by the Prophet be4 this very verse was revealed 2 him. I agree tht the Prophet Muhammad received personal revelation/inspiratiion as 2 deliever some good news etc but i dont agree tht Muhammad delievered a command out of Quran. Even if he did
those wld ONLY be 4 his time n location n thts y GOD didnt preserve them but mentioned the important statements in Quran. RK also received personal isnpiration like the miraaj event where he saw Abraham in his dream. But tht is his personal experience n is NOT important 4 us now. GOD Bless!

wildguest1956

Today, extra Quranic Hadith cannot be "holy" because it's entire existance is extraneous from Al Qur'an and validity is difficult to prove. However, could Hadith Qudsi have existed back in Rasulallah's time? Very interesting question...

That's a very good question, indeed...

Does the word qudsi appear in the Quran ?
Maybe studying the usage of the word qudsi in the Quran would help us answer that question...

Peace

wildguest1956

Thanks to all for your answers,

First, I agree with Loli (and disagree with Zenje ans Zlatan) about the understanding of verse

From what i understand from the context,661-5. The prophet tells something to one of his wife(maybe a secret about another wife;664). Then she spread the "secret". She shouldnt do that, so Allah tells the prophet( by wahy?) about his wife spreading the "Secret". Then the prophet recognized part of it and denied part(does this means that the prophet tell his wife part of it and keep it to himself part of it?). His wife felt weird on how the prophet know that she is spreding the "secret", so she asked him.

So it is said that God has given an information to the prophet ; and that information is not to be found in the Quran.
Was this information given by wahi ?

In order to understand to this question we have to define what is wahi, and what was the way the prophet received the revelation of the quran.
As we can see in the verses Zenje and Marie have quoted, wahi has a broader meaning than revelation. It means inspiration, and can be used for describing influence between humans (like in ).

As Idolfree has pointed, God uses the term "ruh" (spirit) to describe the way he communicates his revelations to the prophets.

And We gave Moses the Scripture, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear proofs, and We supported Him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny, and a group of them you kill!

Such messengers, We have preferred some over others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in rank, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the holy spirit. And had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes.

She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human in all similarity.

Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into her from Our spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures; and she was of those who were obedient.

Say ?The holy Spirit has sent it down from your Lord with truth, so that those who believe will be strengthened, and as a guidance and good news for those who have surrendered.?

Possessor of the highest ranks, the One with the Throne. He sends the Spirit with His command upon whom He wills from His servants, that they may warn of the Day of Summoning.

And this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. It was sent down with the trusted Spirit. Upon your heart, so that you would be of the warners. In a clear Arabic tongue.

And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is the Most High, Most Wise. And thus, We inspired to you a spirit of Our command. You did not know what was the Scripture, nor what was faith. Yet, We made this a light to guide whomever We wish from among Our servants. Surely, you guide to a straight path.

Here, I have replaced "revelation" by "spirit" in the FM's translation.

But, this does not answer our question has God revealed to the prophet other things than the Quran ?
Saladin thinks he did ; but this revelation was not aimed to be made public.
But, there are also personal revelation to the prophet in the Quran ; so why would God have willed some personal revelation to be in the Quran, and some outside it ?
Except some verses where we would guess there had been personal revelation outside the Quran, there is no explicit indication in the Quran of that.
So, my opinion is that we have misunderstood the verses that lead us to the conclusion of revelation outside the Quran.

How could we understand otherwise ?

First, let's remind that God has created everything.

And the land We have stretched, and placed stabilizers in it, and We have planted in it everything in balance.
And We made for you in it a habitat, as well as those whom you are not required to provide for.
And there is not a thing, except that We have vaults of it, yet We only send it down in a measured amount.
And We have sent the winds to pollinate, and We sent down water from the sky for you to drink. And it is not you who are keeping it in storage.
And it is indeed We who give life and death, and We are the inheritors.
And We have known those who came early amongst you, and We have known those who came late.
And it is your Lord that will gather them. He is Wise, Knowledgeable.

God masters everything. Everything runs according to his laws.
The human beings who disobey to his commands are still working according to his laws, because God has created man with the ability to disobey his commands.
The laws governing human psychology are God's laws.
Every human being submits, willingly or unwillingly to God's laws.

And to God submit all who are in the heavens and the Earth, willingly and unwillingly as do their shadows in the morning and the evening.

So, we can say that all that befalls us is from God.

Wherever you may be, death will find you, even if you are in fortified towers. If any good befalls them, they Say ?This is from God,? and if any bad befalls them, they Say ?This is from you!? Say ?All is from God;? what is wrong with these people, they barely understand anything said!

And to Him is what is in the heavens and the Earth, and the system shall be to Him. Is it other than God that you shall be aware of?
And any blessings that are with you are from God. Then, when harm afflicts you, to Him you cry out.

So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said ?O Mary, from where did you get this?? She said ?It is from God, God provides for whom He wishes without reckoning.?

Does this verse means that God had turned himself to a human to bring food to Mary ?
No. Mary is just implementing the principle laid down above Say ?All is from God;? ; And any blessings that are with you are from God.

And, in , the prophet is implementing the same principle. He guessed his wife has spread the matter of confidence (or he had been informed of this by a companion), and attributes this blessing to God. He had not been informed within the holy spirit, nonetheless he said this was from God, and there is no lie with that !

And when the prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to some of his wives, then one of them spread it, and God revealed it to him, he recognised part of it and denied part. So when he informed her, she said ?Who informed you of this?? He said ?I was informed by the Knowledgeable, the Expert.?

No, the only work which is left to us is to collect all the verses leading to the conclusion of revelation outside the Quran, and try to understand them otherwise.
I don't think it will be difficult.

Any feedback will be appreciated

Peace

Fahad1

peace .

So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said ?O Mary, from where did you get this?? She said ?It is from God, God provides for whom He wishes without reckoning.?

Does this verse means that God had turned himself to a human to bring food to Mary ?

God does not have to turm himself into a human to give us food .

And, in , the prophet is implementing the same principle. He guessed his wife has spread the matter of confidence (or he had been informed of this by a companion), and attributes this blessing to God.

guesses and hearsay cannot be attributed to God .

peace .

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

The error in this thread comes from not translating words, this always causes a problem. The reson certain words are not translated is because they lose thier "power" once it is done.

The word "quran" only means reading. Anything that is read is a reading. But the God tells us that to know if a reading(quran) is from HIM, we must look for contradictions, if there are any contradictions (that cannot be resolved by the proper perception and verification) then it is not from the God.

SO the question of is there any inspiration other than "quran", no there is not, but not because the physicalbook that is being called "QURAN" is the only truthful speech, but because ANY TRUTHFUL, VERIFYABLE SPEECH is described with the description "God's reading(quran)"

This reading says so itself that it is ONE OF the greatest, not THE GREATEST, and we also know that it confirms other readings that came before it.

wildguest1956

Peace be upon you,

The error in this thread comes from not translating words, this always causes a problem. The reson certain words are not translated is because they lose thier "power" once it is done.

The word "quran" only means reading. Anything that is read is a reading. But the God tells us that to know if a reading(quran) is from HIM, we must look for contradictions, if there are any contradictions (that cannot be resolved by the proper perception and verification) then it is not from the God.

SO the question of is there any inspiration other than "quran", no there is not, but not because the physicalbook that is being called "QURAN" is the only truthful speech, but because ANY TRUTHFUL, VERIFYABLE SPEECH is described with the description "God's reading(quran)"

This reading says so itself that it is ONE OF the greatest, not THE GREATEST, and we also know that it confirms other readings that came before it.

Very interesting....but...how do you understand ?
How was the prophet informed ?

Peace

wildguest1956

Peace to all

Did my explanation of convince someone ?

For interested people, here is GA Parwez's rendition of these verses.

O Nabi! Given whatever Allah Almighty has made legal for you, why did you impose prohibitions on yourself just to please your wives? (You have been warned so that) You should not have shortage of protection and development (which would be a natural consequence of declaring things legal or illegal). This is important because your actions do not remain confined to your person. You may leave something because you do not like it; but your followers might think that this thing is intrinsically bad and therefore forbid it for themselves. Therefore you have to be extra cautious.
(If you have taken an oath in this regard, then do not worry.) The Divine Laws has already made provision to break such oaths and an atonement has be to made (2225; 589). Allah surely is your Protector. (Accordingly He has made provisions in the Law to expiate for mistakes or human emotions.) He is well aware (of such weaknesses) and therefore has based His Law on wisdom.
(This other episode is also worth mentioning.) The Nabi said something in confidence to one of his wives. (Such conversations between husbands and wives do take place.) The wife divulged it to another woman (although she should not have done so) But Allah made it known to the Nabi (through that other woman). Then he narrated a portion of that to his wife and withheld a part from her. (He made it known to her that he had found out about it but did not disclose the source.) Whereupon she asked him, "Who has told you this?" He said "This has been told to me by the one (that woman) to whom you disclosed the secrecy; and this is how she came to know about it.

. Everything that human beings ordinarily learn or which can be learned by normal means, many a time can be attributed to Allah. For example in 54, the method of training dogs has been attributed to Allah, even though it is common knowledge that any man who has learnt how, can teach the dogs. (Similarly see 2282; 964-5; 554.)
. If Al-Aleem, Al-Khabeer refer to Allah, then it would mean what has been described under the above note.

At this Allah ordered It would be good if both you women (who share this secret) seek Allahs forgiveness, because you have behaved abnormally. However, if both of you team up and oppose the Nabi, then remember (you cannot do any harm to him, as he is right and because) Allah the Almighty, His Law which has been revealed to him through Gabriel, the Jamaat of righteous Momineen and the Malaika, are with him. They all shall support him.

www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_066.htm

unknownuser

Peace be upon you JM,

Very interesting....but...how do you understand ?
How was the prophet informed ?

As all prophets are INformed, from WithIN, its called INtuition.

How does 663 contradict that in any way?

wildguest1956

Peace be upon you JM,

Very interesting....but...how do you understand ?
How was the prophet informed ?

As all prophets are INformed, from WithIN, its called INtuition.

How does 663 contradict that in any way?

You wrote also

SO the question of is there any inspiration other than "quran", no there is not, but not because the physicalbook that is being called "QURAN" is the only truthful speech, but because ANY TRUTHFUL, VERIFYABLE SPEECH is described with the description "God's reading(quran)"

So,

Can everybody have intuition, or is it a specificity of the prophets ?
Is there any difference between intuition and inspiration ?

Thanks in advance for your clarifications

Peace

wildguest1956

peace .

So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said O Mary, from where did you get this? She said It is from God, God provides for whom He wishes without reckoning.

Does this verse means that God had turned himself to a human to bring food to Mary ?

God does not have to turm himself into a human to give us food .

And, in , the prophet is implementing the same principle. He guessed his wife has spread the matter of confidence (or he had been informed of this by a companion), and attributes this blessing to God.

guesses and hearsay cannot be attributed to God .

peace .

Peace Saladin

They ask you as to what is allowed to them. Say The good things are allowed to you, and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey, training them to huntyou teach them of what Allah has taught you-- so eat of that which they catch for you and mention the name of Allah over it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is swift in reckoning.

According to you, does this verse imply that God has taught the believers by revelation how to train their hunting animals to catch food ?