Other Wahi than the quran ?
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Today, extra Quranic Hadith cannot be "holy" because it's entire existance is extraneous from Al Qur'an and validity is difficult to prove. However, could Hadith Qudsi have existed back in Rasulallah's time? Very interesting question...
That's a very good question, indeed...
Does the word qudsi appear in the Quran ?
Maybe studying the usage of the word qudsi in the Quran would help us answer that question...Peace
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Thanks to all for your answers,
First, I agree with Loli (and disagree with Zenje ans Zlatan) about the understanding of verse
From what i understand from the context,661-5. The prophet tells something to one of his wife(maybe a secret about another wife;664). Then she spread the "secret". She shouldnt do that, so Allah tells the prophet( by wahy?) about his wife spreading the "Secret". Then the prophet recognized part of it and denied part(does this means that the prophet tell his wife part of it and keep it to himself part of it?). His wife felt weird on how the prophet know that she is spreding the "secret", so she asked him.
So it is said that God has given an information to the prophet ; and that information is not to be found in the Quran.
Was this information given by wahi ?In order to understand to this question we have to define what is wahi, and what was the way the prophet received the revelation of the quran.
As we can see in the verses Zenje and Marie have quoted, wahi has a broader meaning than revelation. It means inspiration, and can be used for describing influence between humans (like in ).As Idolfree has pointed, God uses the term "ruh" (spirit) to describe the way he communicates his revelations to the prophets.
And We gave Moses the Scripture, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear proofs, and We supported Him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny, and a group of them you kill!
Such messengers, We have preferred some over others; some of them talked to God, and He raised some of them in rank, and We gave Jesus son of Mary the proofs and We supported him with the holy spirit. And had God wished, the people after them would not have fought after the proofs had come to them, but they disputed, some of them believed and some of them disbelieved. Had God wished they would not have fought, but God does whatever He wishes.
She took to a barrier which separated her from them, so We sent Our spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human in all similarity.
Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into her from Our spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures; and she was of those who were obedient.
Say ?The holy Spirit has sent it down from your Lord with truth, so that those who believe will be strengthened, and as a guidance and good news for those who have surrendered.?
Possessor of the highest ranks, the One with the Throne. He sends the Spirit with His command upon whom He wills from His servants, that they may warn of the Day of Summoning.
And this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. It was sent down with the trusted Spirit. Upon your heart, so that you would be of the warners. In a clear Arabic tongue.
And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is the Most High, Most Wise. And thus, We inspired to you a spirit of Our command. You did not know what was the Scripture, nor what was faith. Yet, We made this a light to guide whomever We wish from among Our servants. Surely, you guide to a straight path.
Here, I have replaced "revelation" by "spirit" in the FM's translation.
But, this does not answer our question has God revealed to the prophet other things than the Quran ?
Saladin thinks he did ; but this revelation was not aimed to be made public.
But, there are also personal revelation to the prophet in the Quran ; so why would God have willed some personal revelation to be in the Quran, and some outside it ?
Except some verses where we would guess there had been personal revelation outside the Quran, there is no explicit indication in the Quran of that.
So, my opinion is that we have misunderstood the verses that lead us to the conclusion of revelation outside the Quran.How could we understand otherwise ?
First, let's remind that God has created everything.
And the land We have stretched, and placed stabilizers in it, and We have planted in it everything in balance.
And We made for you in it a habitat, as well as those whom you are not required to provide for.
And there is not a thing, except that We have vaults of it, yet We only send it down in a measured amount.
And We have sent the winds to pollinate, and We sent down water from the sky for you to drink. And it is not you who are keeping it in storage.
And it is indeed We who give life and death, and We are the inheritors.
And We have known those who came early amongst you, and We have known those who came late.
And it is your Lord that will gather them. He is Wise, Knowledgeable.God masters everything. Everything runs according to his laws.
The human beings who disobey to his commands are still working according to his laws, because God has created man with the ability to disobey his commands.
The laws governing human psychology are God's laws.
Every human being submits, willingly or unwillingly to God's laws.And to God submit all who are in the heavens and the Earth, willingly and unwillingly as do their shadows in the morning and the evening.
So, we can say that all that befalls us is from God.
Wherever you may be, death will find you, even if you are in fortified towers. If any good befalls them, they Say ?This is from God,? and if any bad befalls them, they Say ?This is from you!? Say ?All is from God;? what is wrong with these people, they barely understand anything said!
And to Him is what is in the heavens and the Earth, and the system shall be to Him. Is it other than God that you shall be aware of?
And any blessings that are with you are from God. Then, when harm afflicts you, to Him you cry out.So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said ?O Mary, from where did you get this?? She said ?It is from God, God provides for whom He wishes without reckoning.?
Does this verse means that God had turned himself to a human to bring food to Mary ?
No. Mary is just implementing the principle laid down above Say ?All is from God;? ; And any blessings that are with you are from God.And, in , the prophet is implementing the same principle. He guessed his wife has spread the matter of confidence (or he had been informed of this by a companion), and attributes this blessing to God. He had not been informed within the holy spirit, nonetheless he said this was from God, and there is no lie with that !
And when the prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to some of his wives, then one of them spread it, and God revealed it to him, he recognised part of it and denied part. So when he informed her, she said ?Who informed you of this?? He said ?I was informed by the Knowledgeable, the Expert.?
No, the only work which is left to us is to collect all the verses leading to the conclusion of revelation outside the Quran, and try to understand them otherwise.
I don't think it will be difficult.Any feedback will be appreciated
Peace
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peace .
So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said ?O Mary, from where did you get this?? She said ?It is from God, God provides for whom He wishes without reckoning.?
Does this verse means that God had turned himself to a human to bring food to Mary ?
God does not have to turm himself into a human to give us food .
And, in , the prophet is implementing the same principle. He guessed his wife has spread the matter of confidence (or he had been informed of this by a companion), and attributes this blessing to God.
guesses and hearsay cannot be attributed to God .
peace .
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Peace be upon you,
The error in this thread comes from not translating words, this always causes a problem. The reson certain words are not translated is because they lose thier "power" once it is done.
The word "quran" only means reading. Anything that is read is a reading. But the God tells us that to know if a reading(quran) is from HIM, we must look for contradictions, if there are any contradictions (that cannot be resolved by the proper perception and verification) then it is not from the God.
SO the question of is there any inspiration other than "quran", no there is not, but not because the physicalbook that is being called "QURAN" is the only truthful speech, but because ANY TRUTHFUL, VERIFYABLE SPEECH is described with the description "God's reading(quran)"
This reading says so itself that it is ONE OF the greatest, not THE GREATEST, and we also know that it confirms other readings that came before it.
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Peace be upon you,
The error in this thread comes from not translating words, this always causes a problem. The reson certain words are not translated is because they lose thier "power" once it is done.
The word "quran" only means reading. Anything that is read is a reading. But the God tells us that to know if a reading(quran) is from HIM, we must look for contradictions, if there are any contradictions (that cannot be resolved by the proper perception and verification) then it is not from the God.
SO the question of is there any inspiration other than "quran", no there is not, but not because the physicalbook that is being called "QURAN" is the only truthful speech, but because ANY TRUTHFUL, VERIFYABLE SPEECH is described with the description "God's reading(quran)"
This reading says so itself that it is ONE OF the greatest, not THE GREATEST, and we also know that it confirms other readings that came before it.
Very interesting....but...how do you understand ?
How was the prophet informed ?Peace
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Peace to all
Did my explanation of convince someone ?
For interested people, here is GA Parwez's rendition of these verses.
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O Nabi! Given whatever Allah Almighty has made legal for you, why did you impose prohibitions on yourself just to please your wives? (You have been warned so that) You should not have shortage of protection and development (which would be a natural consequence of declaring things legal or illegal). This is important because your actions do not remain confined to your person. You may leave something because you do not like it; but your followers might think that this thing is intrinsically bad and therefore forbid it for themselves. Therefore you have to be extra cautious.
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(If you have taken an oath in this regard, then do not worry.) The Divine Laws has already made provision to break such oaths and an atonement has be to made (2225; 589). Allah surely is your Protector. (Accordingly He has made provisions in the Law to expiate for mistakes or human emotions.) He is well aware (of such weaknesses) and therefore has based His Law on wisdom.
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(This other episode is also worth mentioning.) The Nabi said something in confidence to one of his wives. (Such conversations between husbands and wives do take place.) The wife divulged it to another woman (although she should not have done so) But Allah made it known to the Nabi (through that other woman). Then he narrated a portion of that to his wife and withheld a part from her. (He made it known to her that he had found out about it but did not disclose the source.) Whereupon she asked him, "Who has told you this?" He said "This has been told to me by the one (that woman) to whom you disclosed the secrecy; and this is how she came to know about it.
. Everything that human beings ordinarily learn or which can be learned by normal means, many a time can be attributed to Allah. For example in 54, the method of training dogs has been attributed to Allah, even though it is common knowledge that any man who has learnt how, can teach the dogs. (Similarly see 2282; 964-5; 554.)
. If Al-Aleem, Al-Khabeer refer to Allah, then it would mean what has been described under the above note.- At this Allah ordered It would be good if both you women (who share this secret) seek Allahs forgiveness, because you have behaved abnormally. However, if both of you team up and oppose the Nabi, then remember (you cannot do any harm to him, as he is right and because) Allah the Almighty, His Law which has been revealed to him through Gabriel, the Jamaat of righteous Momineen and the Malaika, are with him. They all shall support him.
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Peace be upon you JM,
Very interesting....but...how do you understand ?
How was the prophet informed ?As all prophets are INformed, from WithIN, its called INtuition.
How does 663 contradict that in any way?
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Peace be upon you JM,
Very interesting....but...how do you understand ?
How was the prophet informed ?As all prophets are INformed, from WithIN, its called INtuition.
How does 663 contradict that in any way?
You wrote also
SO the question of is there any inspiration other than "quran", no there is not, but not because the physicalbook that is being called "QURAN" is the only truthful speech, but because ANY TRUTHFUL, VERIFYABLE SPEECH is described with the description "God's reading(quran)"
So,
- Can everybody have intuition, or is it a specificity of the prophets ?
- Is there any difference between intuition and inspiration ?
Thanks in advance for your clarifications
Peace
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peace .
So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said O Mary, from where did you get this? She said It is from God, God provides for whom He wishes without reckoning.
Does this verse means that God had turned himself to a human to bring food to Mary ?
God does not have to turm himself into a human to give us food .
And, in , the prophet is implementing the same principle. He guessed his wife has spread the matter of confidence (or he had been informed of this by a companion), and attributes this blessing to God.
guesses and hearsay cannot be attributed to God .
peace .
Peace Saladin
They ask you as to what is allowed to them. Say The good things are allowed to you, and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey, training them to huntyou teach them of what Allah has taught you-- so eat of that which they catch for you and mention the name of Allah over it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is swift in reckoning.
According to you, does this verse imply that God has taught the believers by revelation how to train their hunting animals to catch food ?
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Peace be upon you JM,
So,
- Can everybody have intuition, or is it a specificity of the prophets ?
Yes, everyone has the POTENTIAL to have intuition, but not everyone does the WORK required to get to that level, and if they do, they don't do it consistently to stay at that level. One who is at that level, AT THAT TIME, is described as a "prophet". Please notice I said described as a "prophet" (lower case p), not given the TITLE "PROPHET". You see, we have taken this description and IDOLIZED IT. It is not a title, it is a simple description of one who reaches the level where they can "talk to the God", that is, recieve intuition. EVERYONE has that potential, the God is fair and just, so it is up to each individual, and they will only reap what they sow.
In the same manner, anyone who passes on information that was intuited is described, not TITLED, messenger(one who is sent).
- Is there any difference between intuition and inspiration ?
It depends on how yo uare defining those words, Inspiration shows the connection of IN + SPIRIT, so I would say that is similar, but again, lets nail down the definitions before we say exactly the same.
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Peace Idolfree,
Thank you for your explanations.
Nevertheless, I have further questions.You wrote
SO the question of is there any inspiration other than "quran", no there is not, but not because the physicalbook that is being called "QURAN" is the only truthful speech, but because ANY TRUTHFUL, VERIFYABLE SPEECH is described with the description "God's reading(quran)"
Assume I say "It rains".
I can guarantee you that, where I am, it really rains ; so it is a TRUTHFUL AND VERIFYABLE SPEECH.
Can I say it is inspiration, that I have talked to God, and that I am a prophet (that I can be described as a prophet) ?And you, can you be described as a prophet ?
Peace
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peace .
So her Lord accepted her a good acceptance, and made her grow into a good growth, and charged Zachariah with her. Every time Zachariah entered upon her in the temple enclosure, he found provisions with her. He said ?O Mary, from where did you get this?? She said ?It is from God, God provides for whom He wishes without reckoning.?
Does this verse means that God had turned himself to a human to bring food to Mary ?
God does not have to turm himself into a human to give us food .
And, in , the prophet is implementing the same principle. He guessed his wife has spread the matter of confidence (or he had been informed of this by a companion), and attributes this blessing to God.
guesses and hearsay cannot be attributed to God .
peace .
Peace Saladin
They ask you as to what is allowed to them. Say The good things are allowed to you, and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey, training them to hunt?you teach them of what Allah has taught you-- so eat of that which they catch for you and mention the name of Allah over it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is swift in reckoning.
According to you, does this verse imply that God has taught the believers by revelation how to train their hunting animals to catch food ?
salam.
not necessarily . 663 is about the nabi muhammad . it is no unusual thing for a nabi to recieve revealation from God . but in 54 the "you" in "what Allah has taught YOU" is plural (correct me if i m wrong , please),ie not only for the nabi . God has taught us many things but not through wahi .
how many people besides a nabi recieve revealtion from God ? not many right ?i can remember only Marium's name right now , who recieved good news of a child from God .by the way , do see any verse in the koran claiming that koran was the only wahi to muhammad . tell me please .
salam. -
salam.
not necessarily . 663 is about the nabi muhammad . it is no unusual thing for a nabi to recieve revealation from God . but in 54 the "you" in "what Allah has taught YOU" is plural (correct me if i m wrong , please),ie not only for the nabi . God has taught us many things but not through wahi .
how many people besides a nabi recieve revealtion from God ? not many right ?i can remember only Marium's name right now , who recieved good news of a child from God .Peace Saladin,
According to you, how does God do to teach someone something without revelation ?
And, why would God have (in ) communicated to Muhammad via revelation, whereas he could have communicated without revelation ?
How do you know God used revelation, in ?by the way , do see any verse in the koran claiming that koran was the only wahi to muhammad . tell me please .
salam.Maybe you could reread this article
http//www.free-minds.org/books/naveed_03.htmPeace
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salam.
salam.
not necessarily . 663 is about the nabi muhammad . it is no unusual thing for a nabi to recieve revealation from God . but in 54 the "you" in "what Allah has taught YOU" is plural (correct me if i m wrong , please),ie not only for the nabi . God has taught us many things but not through wahi .
how many people besides a nabi recieve revealtion from God ? not many right ?i can remember only Marium's name right now , who recieved good news of a child from God .Peace Saladin,
According to you, how does God do to teach someone something without revelation ?
And, why would God have (in ) communicated to Muhammad via revelation, whereas he could have communicated without revelation ?What a question!!! Like ?Why did God send the Koran via revelation when He could have done so without revelation??!!!
A nabi receives revelation . it is no extraordinary thing for a nabi . 663 is straightforward . why are u trying to rationalize it ? u r trying to prove something(that koran was the only revelation) not supported by even a single verse of the Koran .How do you know God used revelation, in ?
because that is the only explanation . u could not provide any good explaination . the best explanation u could give was that Muhammad attributed hearsay to God .
663 When the Prophet confined a secret to one of his
wives, she disclosed this secret to another and
Allah informed him about it, the Prophet made
known to the said wife a part of it and avoided
mentioning the rest. So when he told her about
this disclosure, she asked "Who told you this?"
He replied "I was informed by Him Who is
All-Knowing, All-Aware."What did the wife of nabi ask him ? that who exactly informed him . if it was someone other than God who informed him , for example his friend or someone else , the nabi would have told her wife that . because that is exactly what the wife was asking . if u ask me who emailed me last night and I tell u ?God emailed me? !!! that?s nuts . I would say that only if it was really God who emailed me .
by the way , do see any verse in the koran claiming that koran was the only wahi to muhammad . tell me please .
salam.Maybe you could reread this article
http//www.free-minds.org/books/naveed_03.htmnot a single verse on that page supports your idea that Koran was the only revelation .
salam. -
Salaamun alaikum all,
I have an interesting theory what if Allah had given Muhammad the power of telepathy at that instance and he read his wife's mind and that is how he found out about it. Then as the power of reading mind was given by Allah, he can say that Allah informed him. Any comments?
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace Saladin
They ask you as to what is allowed to them. Say The good things are allowed to you, and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey, training them to huntyou teach them of what Allah has taught you-- so eat of that which they catch for you and mention the name of Allah over it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is swift in reckoning.
According to you, does this verse imply that God has taught the believers by revelation how to train their hunting animals to catch food ?
salam.
not necessarily . 663 is about the nabi muhammad . it is no unusual thing for a nabi to recieve revealation from God . but in 54 the "you" in "what Allah has taught YOU" is plural (correct me if i m wrong , please),ie not only for the nabi . God has taught us many things but not through wahi .
how many people besides a nabi recieve revealtion from God ? not many right ?i can remember only Marium's name right now , who recieved good news of a child from God .by the way , do see any verse in the koran claiming that koran was the only wahi to muhammad . tell me please .
salam.Peace Saladin,
You wrote "God has taught us many things but not through wahi".
Could you explain how God concretely did to teach the believers how to train dogs ?
Did God turn into an human being and give them lessons ?
I would like you to explain clearly the process.Thanks in advance,
Peace
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Salaamun Alaikum,
Dear brothers and sisters in Islam,Please allow me to add my understanding regarding the same.
I think there is wahi other than AlQuraan. But one thing is clear that it is not necessary for us to know about that wahi which is other than AlQuraan.
Because, as it is mentioned in AlQuraan - 2185
"Shahru Ramadhanal-laziiy unzila feehi-AlQuraan hudanl-linnasi......" 2185
"Month of Ramadhan in which the Quraan has been revealed, a guidance for the mankind......" 2185
The noted point in this verse is AlQuraan is sent for the purpose of guidance and what so ever is there other than AlQuraan in a form of wahi is not a guidance for us. That is not important for us to know. We will not have to answer regarding that.... So, why we need to know about such wahi?
As Allah said in 2187
"Uhilla lakum lailatas-thiyaami......." 2187
There are two points to note down in this verse...
One is It has been made lawful for you to go to your women in the nights of fasting.
Second is Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you and forgave you.
From these point it is clear enough to understand that going to our women in the nights of fasting were unlawful. But where was it said? Is it in AlQuraan? As per my knowledge, I dont find it. (if anyone knows about it, please get the reference).
From the above quoted verses itself we understand that it was unlawful before and later with the mercy of Allah, He made it lawful for us. So, we don't need to know how it was mentioned before when it was unlawful. Because that is not important for us to know or else Allah would have mentioned it if was necessary for us.
So, there is possibility of other wahi apart from AlQuraan.
We should not forget that Allah has chosen three (3) ways to communicate with any person. Mentioned in 4251
I think "Ra'aa / Taraa" or "Ilhaam" all are the parts of these three kinds.
This is my personal understanding, it may need varification before believing.
May Allah open our hearts to undertand the Truth and guide us all towards the way that He likes.
Regards,
Mohammed Mahtab Khan
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Peace Saladin,
You wrote "God has taught us many things but not through wahi".
Could you explain how God concretely did to teach the believers how to train dogs ?
Did God turn into an human being and give them lessons ?
I would like you to explain clearly the process.Thanks in advance,
Peace
salam JM.
God can teach us in any way at all . but He does not "turn into a human being" to do that . (who said that God turns ino a human being?) . he can teach us with or without wahi . for example the verses that tell us that Solomon was taught how to make armor and he was also taught the language of birds . that would have been taught with or without wahi . same goes for training the dogs . maybe it was taught through wahi , maybe not . it is no extraordinary thing for a nabi to recieve revelation .