Other Wahi than the quran ?
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Salaamun Alaikum,
Dear brothers and sisters in Islam,Please allow me to add my understanding regarding the same.
I think there is wahi other than AlQuraan. But one thing is clear that it is not necessary for us to know about that wahi which is other than AlQuraan.
Because, as it is mentioned in AlQuraan - 2185
"Shahru Ramadhanal-laziiy unzila feehi-AlQuraan hudanl-linnasi......" 2185
"Month of Ramadhan in which the Quraan has been revealed, a guidance for the mankind......" 2185
The noted point in this verse is AlQuraan is sent for the purpose of guidance and what so ever is there other than AlQuraan in a form of wahi is not a guidance for us. That is not important for us to know. We will not have to answer regarding that.... So, why we need to know about such wahi?
As Allah said in 2187
"Uhilla lakum lailatas-thiyaami......." 2187
There are two points to note down in this verse...
One is It has been made lawful for you to go to your women in the nights of fasting.
Second is Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you and forgave you.
From these point it is clear enough to understand that going to our women in the nights of fasting were unlawful. But where was it said? Is it in AlQuraan? As per my knowledge, I dont find it. (if anyone knows about it, please get the reference).
From the above quoted verses itself we understand that it was unlawful before and later with the mercy of Allah, He made it lawful for us. So, we don't need to know how it was mentioned before when it was unlawful. Because that is not important for us to know or else Allah would have mentioned it if was necessary for us.
So, there is possibility of other wahi apart from AlQuraan.
We should not forget that Allah has chosen three (3) ways to communicate with any person. Mentioned in 4251
I think "Ra'aa / Taraa" or "Ilhaam" all are the parts of these three kinds.
This is my personal understanding, it may need varification before believing.
May Allah open our hearts to undertand the Truth and guide us all towards the way that He likes.
Regards,
Mohammed Mahtab Khan
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Peace Saladin,
You wrote "God has taught us many things but not through wahi".
Could you explain how God concretely did to teach the believers how to train dogs ?
Did God turn into an human being and give them lessons ?
I would like you to explain clearly the process.Thanks in advance,
Peace
salam JM.
God can teach us in any way at all . but He does not "turn into a human being" to do that . (who said that God turns ino a human being?) . he can teach us with or without wahi . for example the verses that tell us that Solomon was taught how to make armor and he was also taught the language of birds . that would have been taught with or without wahi . same goes for training the dogs . maybe it was taught through wahi , maybe not . it is no extraordinary thing for a nabi to recieve revelation . -
Peace Saladin,
You wrote "God has taught us many things but not through wahi".
Could you explain how God concretely did to teach the believers how to train dogs ?
Did God turn into an human being and give them lessons ?
I would like you to explain clearly the process.Thanks in advance,
Peace
salam JM.
God can teach us in any way at all . but He does not "turn into a human being" to do that . (who said that God turns ino a human being?) . he can teach us with or without wahi . for example the verses that tell us that Solomon was taught how to make armor and he was also taught the language of birds . that would have been taught with or without wahi . same goes for training the dogs . maybe it was taught through wahi , maybe not . it is no extraordinary thing for a nabi to recieve revelation .Thanks for you endeavors, however it is still not clear enough for me.
I would like to know exactly the way God taught the believers how to train their dogs.What do you think of the following verse
And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is the Most High, Most Wise.
salam JM.
why do u think that there was no revelations besides the koran . i have not read any such thing in the koran . tell me please .
salam.Indeed, I think there has not been any revelation to prophet Muhammad outside the quran. But I would like to understand your argumentation to become sure of this.
And I have not read in the quran anything about revelation outside it.
There are just some verse that may lead us to this deduction.
But maybe we do not understand them well...Salaamun Alaikum,
Dear brothers and sisters in Islam,Please allow me to add my understanding regarding the same.
I think there is wahi other than AlQuraan. But one thing is clear that it is not necessary for us to know about that wahi which is other than AlQuraan.
Because, as it is mentioned in AlQuraan - 2185
"Shahru Ramadhanal-laziiy unzila feehi-AlQuraan hudanl-linnasi......" 2185
"Month of Ramadhan in which the Quraan has been revealed, a guidance for the mankind......" 2185
The noted point in this verse is AlQuraan is sent for the purpose of guidance and what so ever is there other than AlQuraan in a form of wahi is not a guidance for us. That is not important for us to know. We will not have to answer regarding that.... So, why we need to know about such wahi?
As Allah said in 2187
"Uhilla lakum lailatas-thiyaami......." 2187
There are two points to note down in this verse...
One is It has been made lawful for you to go to your women in the nights of fasting.
Second is Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He turned to you and forgave you.
From these point it is clear enough to understand that going to our women in the nights of fasting were unlawful. But where was it said? Is it in AlQuraan? As per my knowledge, I dont find it. (if anyone knows about it, please get the reference).
From the above quoted verses itself we understand that it was unlawful before and later with the mercy of Allah, He made it lawful for us. So, we don't need to know how it was mentioned before when it was unlawful. Because that is not important for us to know or else Allah would have mentioned it if was necessary for us.
So, there is possibility of other wahi apart from AlQuraan.
We should not forget that Allah has chosen three (3) ways to communicate with any person. Mentioned in 4251
I think "Ra'aa / Taraa" or "Ilhaam" all are the parts of these three kinds.
This is my personal understanding, it may need varification before believing.
May Allah open our hearts to undertand the Truth and guide us all towards the way that He likes.
Regards,
Mohammed Mahtab Khan
Why do you think sexual relations in the nights of fasting had been made unlawful by a revelation from God ?
There are other possibilities. It could have been made unlawful by the prophet. Or maybe some companions hold the opinion that it was unlawful, so people believed it was.So, to sum up the different opinions
- Wahi other than Quran, but no guidance (mmkhan and saladin)
- Wahi and guidance other than Quran (sunnis)
- Every truthful and verifiable speech are wahi (idolfree)
- No wahi other than Quran (me)
Thanks to all, and Peace
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Salaamun Alaikum,
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Islam,Why do you think sexual relations in the nights of fasting had been made unlawful by a revelation from God ?
There are other possibilities.What else do you think brother? The verse explain itself.
It could have been made unlawful by the prophet.
Was Prophet given the authority to make anything lawful or unlawful? I don't think so.
Or maybe some companions hold the opinion that it was unlawful, so people believed it was.
When it is said clearly in 2185 that "Uhilla lakum....." Who is making it lawful in here... Indeed Allah.... As per your understandings, if Prophet made it unlawful or come companions hold the opinion about that, Allah would have send the warnings like in 661.
Because Allah is the only One who can make anything lawful or unlawful.
So, to sum up the different opinions
- Wahi other than Quran, but no guidance (mmkhan and saladin)
- Wahi and guidance other than Quran (sunnis)
- Every truthful and verifiable speech are wahi (idolfree)
- No wahi other than Quran (me)
Thanks to all, and Peace
hmmm....
May Allah guide us all towards the Correct Path.
Regards,
Mohammed Mahtab Khan
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Peace,
What do we, as Quran only follower, to answer to the people who claim that verses , , , , ...etc...prove that there have been Revelation Outside the Quran (ROQ), and that the "sunna" can be (at least partially) inspired by God.
Here is what they say
And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to know who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
=> The first qibla has been given by ROQ.
It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are Gods boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
=> To approach the women during the night of fasting had been made unlawful by ROQ before the revelation of this verse
And when the prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to some of his wives, then one of them spread it, and God revealed it to him, he recognized part of it and denied part. So when he informed her, she said Who informed you of this? He said I was informed by the Knowledgeable, the Expert.
=> Muhammad has been informed by ROQ
And you said to the one who was blessed by God, and blessed by you Keep your wife and reverence God, and you hid inside yourself what God wished to proclaim. And you feared the people, while it was God you were supposed to fear. So when Zayd ended his relationship with his wife, We had you marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.
=> God has commanded the prophet to marry her by ROQ
Those who lagged behind will say, when you venture out to collect the spoils Let us follow you! They want to change Gods words. Say You will not follow us; this is what God has decreed beforehand. They will then Say No, you are envious of us. Alas, they rarely understood anything.
=> God has decreed earlier by ROQ that they would not follow them
Other examples here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40716#40716
Thanks !
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Peace be upon you JM,
I must have forgotten about this thread, sorry for late response.
Assume I say "It rains".
I can guarantee you that, where I am, it really rains ; so it is a TRUTHFUL AND VERIFYABLE SPEECH.
Can I say it is inspiration, that I have talked to God, and that I am a prophet (that I can be described as a prophet) ?No, you did not intuit that it rains, you witnessed it externally, so the most you would be is a messenger by relaying that information to someone who has not witnessed it. Or for example, a farmer is looking for some land where it rains a lot to grow certain food, if you inform him that it rains where you are, you have just delivered a truthful statement.
"talking to God" is not like two humans talking.
And you, can you be described as a prophet ?
Me personally? right now, no. Only when an answer to a problem comes to me from within, rather than from someone telling me, or a book, anything external.
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I would like a response convincing for Sunnis, like the ones we can find in
http//www.free-minds.org/articles.htm#hadith
IHMO, a rebuttal of the points expressed in my post http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63522#63522 is lacking in this page.Can someone help ?
I have already exposed some tracks in this thread, but it needs more elaboration.The Sunni argument to be refuted can be found here, part 3 http//www.muslimfr.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=291
And you can translate it from French to English with http//babelfish.altavista.com/
Peace
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JM, the best ayat to show the only clarifying wahi is al-quraan is this one
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come).(10/15)
Its very clear from here that rejection of al-quraan as the only wahi shows disbelief in the last day.
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JM, the best ayat to show the only clarifying wahi is al-quraan is this one
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come).(10/15)
Its very clear from here that rejection of al-quraan as the only wahi shows disbelief in the last day.
I fully agree with you, but what would you answer to this claims ?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63522#63522Peace
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I fully agree with you, but what would you answer to this claims ?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63522#63522Peace
Noone can help ???
Thanks in advance...
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Salaamun alaikum brother JM,
All the guidance relevant to us is in Al-Qur'aan. Please note that all the examples of ROQ quoted by you are not relevant to us, so it was not important for those ROQ to be included in Al-Qur'aan.
And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to know who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
=> The first qibla has been given by ROQ.
First qibla not relevant to us anymore.
It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
=> To approach the women during the night of fasting had been made unlawful by ROQ before the revelation of this verse
Previous law not relevant to us anymore. The new relevant law has been revealed in Al-Qur'aan.
And when the prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to some of his wives, then one of them spread it, and God revealed it to him, he recognized part of it and denied part. So when he informed her, she said ?Who informed you of this?? He said ?I was informed by the Knowledgeable, the Expert.?
=> Muhammad has been informed by ROQ
Relevant only to Muhammad, not to us.
And you said to the one who was blessed by God, and blessed by you ?Keep your wife and reverence God,? and you hid inside yourself what God wished to proclaim. And you feared the people, while it was God you were supposed to fear. So when Zayd ended his relationship with his wife, We had you marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.
=> God has commanded the prophet to marry her by ROQ
Relevant only to Muhammad.
Those who lagged behind will say, when you venture out to collect the spoils ?Let us follow you!? They want to change God?s words. Say ?You will not follow us; this is what God has decreed beforehand.? They will then Say ?No, you are envious of us.? Alas, they rarely understood anything.
=> God has decreed earlier by ROQ that they would not follow them
Relevant only to those who lagged behind.
All?h has certainly helped you at Badr while you were weak. So, fear All?h so that you may be grateful. When you (O Prophet) were saying to the believers, ?Shall it not suffice you that your Lord shall aid you with three thousand angels being sent down? Why not? If you observe patience and fear All?h and they come to you in this their heat, your Lord shall aid you with five thousand angels having distinct marks?? And All?h did not make it but a good news for you so that your hearts might be satisfied. And there is no help except from All?h, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (3123-126)
this good news of sending down angels is not given in the koran . koran only tells that God gave the good news .
This good news was relevant only to Muhammad and his contemporaries, not to us.
And when All?h promised you that one of the two groups shall be for you. (87)
the promise is not found in the koran .
Once again, not relevant to us.
None of the examples of ROQ are relevant to us. You will have a point only if there is an example of ROQ hinted in Al-Qur'aan which is relevant to our guidance.
Hope that helps,
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace bro Tanveer,
Good to see you back! D
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Peace tanveermd, and thanks for answering,
So, you are of the opinion that the prophet Muhammad could have received personal revelation, but that this revelation is not relevant to us today.
But, as you may know, some sunnis will respond to that that, since the prophet did receive personal revelation from God, it is not impossible that the sunna may be (at least partly) inspired by God.
IMHO, there has been no personal revelation to the prophet Muhammad.
But my opinion is that sometimes, God attributes to himself acts done by humans.
God is omnipotent. He has created all that exists, and he masters everything.Nothing is hidden from your Lord, not even an atoms weight on Earth or in the heavens, nor smaller than that nor larger, but is in a clear record.
So, everything that is done by the nature, the animals, or humans, it is as if it was done by God.
Some examples
And the Day we gather them all O tribes of Jinn, you have managed to take many humans. Their supporters from the humans said Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us. He said The Fire is your dwelling, in it you shall abide eternally, except as your Lord wishes. Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.
It is such that We make the wicked as supporters to one another for what they had earned.In , we have knowledge on some facts, narrated as human actions.
And in , God attributes to himself these facts.Would you state that God has inspired these people by revelation how to become wicked ?
They ask you what was made lawful to them, Say All the good things have been made lawful for you, and what the trained dogs and birds catch, you teach them from what God teaches you. So eat from what they have captured for you and mention Gods name upon it, and be aware of God. God is quick in reckoning.
Here, it would be wrong to state that the believers have received by revelation how to train the dogs.
They have simply learned to train the dogs like anyone would have done, using their god-given abilities.let not the scribe refuse to record as God has taught him.
Did God reveal to the scribe how to write ?
So, IMHO, all the verse I have quoted to imply ROQ should be reinterpreted having in mind the fact God sometimes attributes to himself acts done by humans.
Looking forward to your response
Peace
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And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed; And without doubt he saw him in the clear horizon. Neither doth he withhold grudgingly a knowledge of the Unseen.
Does not this verse imply that the prophet cannot have kept for himself revelations ?
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Peace be upon you Tanveer and JM,
All the guidance relevant to us is in Al-Qur'aan. Please note that all the examples of ROQ quoted by you are not relevant to us, so it was not important for those ROQ to be included in Al-Qur'aan.
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And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to know who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.=> The first qibla has been given by ROQ.
First qibla not relevant to us anymore.
Everything is relevant, the first qibla given to EVERYONE is the outerworld, then we are directed WITHIN. This is not about looking at one idol and being directed towards another one(black cube).
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It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.=> To approach the women during the night of fasting had been made unlawful by ROQ before the revelation of this verse
Previous law not relevant to us anymore. The new relevant law has been revealed in Al-Qur'aan.
I do not have the answer for ths one yet as the subject of SAWM is still not understood.
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And when the prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to some of his wives, then one of them spread it, and God revealed it to him, he recognized part of it and denied part. So when he informed her, she said ?Who informed you of this?? He said ?I was informed by the Knowledgeable, the Expert.?=> Muhammad has been informed by ROQ
Relevant only to Muhammad, not to us.
Every human being has the potential to recieve inspiration. There is no such thing as a book called "quran", "quran" includes all inspired truth.
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And you said to the one who was blessed by God, and blessed by you ?Keep your wife and reverence God,? and you hid inside yourself what God wished to proclaim. And you feared the people, while it was God you were supposed to fear. So when Zayd ended his relationship with his wife, We had you marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.=> God has commanded the prophet to marry her by ROQ
Relevant only to Muhammad.
It is relevant to all mankind, Truth is relevant to all. "Quran" is not the title of a book.
Same for rest.
