Other Wahi than the quran ?
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Peace,
What do we, as Quran only follower, to answer to the people who claim that verses , , , , ...etc...prove that there have been Revelation Outside the Quran (ROQ), and that the "sunna" can be (at least partially) inspired by God.
Here is what they say
And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to know who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
=> The first qibla has been given by ROQ.
It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are Gods boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
=> To approach the women during the night of fasting had been made unlawful by ROQ before the revelation of this verse
And when the prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to some of his wives, then one of them spread it, and God revealed it to him, he recognized part of it and denied part. So when he informed her, she said Who informed you of this? He said I was informed by the Knowledgeable, the Expert.
=> Muhammad has been informed by ROQ
And you said to the one who was blessed by God, and blessed by you Keep your wife and reverence God, and you hid inside yourself what God wished to proclaim. And you feared the people, while it was God you were supposed to fear. So when Zayd ended his relationship with his wife, We had you marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.
=> God has commanded the prophet to marry her by ROQ
Those who lagged behind will say, when you venture out to collect the spoils Let us follow you! They want to change Gods words. Say You will not follow us; this is what God has decreed beforehand. They will then Say No, you are envious of us. Alas, they rarely understood anything.
=> God has decreed earlier by ROQ that they would not follow them
Other examples here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40716#40716
Thanks !
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Peace be upon you JM,
I must have forgotten about this thread, sorry for late response.
Assume I say "It rains".
I can guarantee you that, where I am, it really rains ; so it is a TRUTHFUL AND VERIFYABLE SPEECH.
Can I say it is inspiration, that I have talked to God, and that I am a prophet (that I can be described as a prophet) ?No, you did not intuit that it rains, you witnessed it externally, so the most you would be is a messenger by relaying that information to someone who has not witnessed it. Or for example, a farmer is looking for some land where it rains a lot to grow certain food, if you inform him that it rains where you are, you have just delivered a truthful statement.
"talking to God" is not like two humans talking.
And you, can you be described as a prophet ?
Me personally? right now, no. Only when an answer to a problem comes to me from within, rather than from someone telling me, or a book, anything external.
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I would like a response convincing for Sunnis, like the ones we can find in
http//www.free-minds.org/articles.htm#hadith
IHMO, a rebuttal of the points expressed in my post http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63522#63522 is lacking in this page.Can someone help ?
I have already exposed some tracks in this thread, but it needs more elaboration.The Sunni argument to be refuted can be found here, part 3 http//www.muslimfr.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=291
And you can translate it from French to English with http//babelfish.altavista.com/
Peace
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JM, the best ayat to show the only clarifying wahi is al-quraan is this one
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come).(10/15)
Its very clear from here that rejection of al-quraan as the only wahi shows disbelief in the last day.
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JM, the best ayat to show the only clarifying wahi is al-quraan is this one
But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come).(10/15)
Its very clear from here that rejection of al-quraan as the only wahi shows disbelief in the last day.
I fully agree with you, but what would you answer to this claims ?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63522#63522Peace
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I fully agree with you, but what would you answer to this claims ?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=63522#63522Peace
Noone can help ???
Thanks in advance...
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Salaamun alaikum brother JM,
All the guidance relevant to us is in Al-Qur'aan. Please note that all the examples of ROQ quoted by you are not relevant to us, so it was not important for those ROQ to be included in Al-Qur'aan.
And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to know who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
=> The first qibla has been given by ROQ.
First qibla not relevant to us anymore.
It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
=> To approach the women during the night of fasting had been made unlawful by ROQ before the revelation of this verse
Previous law not relevant to us anymore. The new relevant law has been revealed in Al-Qur'aan.
And when the prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to some of his wives, then one of them spread it, and God revealed it to him, he recognized part of it and denied part. So when he informed her, she said ?Who informed you of this?? He said ?I was informed by the Knowledgeable, the Expert.?
=> Muhammad has been informed by ROQ
Relevant only to Muhammad, not to us.
And you said to the one who was blessed by God, and blessed by you ?Keep your wife and reverence God,? and you hid inside yourself what God wished to proclaim. And you feared the people, while it was God you were supposed to fear. So when Zayd ended his relationship with his wife, We had you marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.
=> God has commanded the prophet to marry her by ROQ
Relevant only to Muhammad.
Those who lagged behind will say, when you venture out to collect the spoils ?Let us follow you!? They want to change God?s words. Say ?You will not follow us; this is what God has decreed beforehand.? They will then Say ?No, you are envious of us.? Alas, they rarely understood anything.
=> God has decreed earlier by ROQ that they would not follow them
Relevant only to those who lagged behind.
All?h has certainly helped you at Badr while you were weak. So, fear All?h so that you may be grateful. When you (O Prophet) were saying to the believers, ?Shall it not suffice you that your Lord shall aid you with three thousand angels being sent down? Why not? If you observe patience and fear All?h and they come to you in this their heat, your Lord shall aid you with five thousand angels having distinct marks?? And All?h did not make it but a good news for you so that your hearts might be satisfied. And there is no help except from All?h, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (3123-126)
this good news of sending down angels is not given in the koran . koran only tells that God gave the good news .
This good news was relevant only to Muhammad and his contemporaries, not to us.
And when All?h promised you that one of the two groups shall be for you. (87)
the promise is not found in the koran .
Once again, not relevant to us.
None of the examples of ROQ are relevant to us. You will have a point only if there is an example of ROQ hinted in Al-Qur'aan which is relevant to our guidance.
Hope that helps,
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace bro Tanveer,
Good to see you back! D
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Peace tanveermd, and thanks for answering,
So, you are of the opinion that the prophet Muhammad could have received personal revelation, but that this revelation is not relevant to us today.
But, as you may know, some sunnis will respond to that that, since the prophet did receive personal revelation from God, it is not impossible that the sunna may be (at least partly) inspired by God.
IMHO, there has been no personal revelation to the prophet Muhammad.
But my opinion is that sometimes, God attributes to himself acts done by humans.
God is omnipotent. He has created all that exists, and he masters everything.Nothing is hidden from your Lord, not even an atoms weight on Earth or in the heavens, nor smaller than that nor larger, but is in a clear record.
So, everything that is done by the nature, the animals, or humans, it is as if it was done by God.
Some examples
And the Day we gather them all O tribes of Jinn, you have managed to take many humans. Their supporters from the humans said Our Lord, we have indeed enjoyed one another, and we have reached our destiny to which You delayed us. He said The Fire is your dwelling, in it you shall abide eternally, except as your Lord wishes. Your Lord is Wise, Knowledgeable.
It is such that We make the wicked as supporters to one another for what they had earned.In , we have knowledge on some facts, narrated as human actions.
And in , God attributes to himself these facts.Would you state that God has inspired these people by revelation how to become wicked ?
They ask you what was made lawful to them, Say All the good things have been made lawful for you, and what the trained dogs and birds catch, you teach them from what God teaches you. So eat from what they have captured for you and mention Gods name upon it, and be aware of God. God is quick in reckoning.
Here, it would be wrong to state that the believers have received by revelation how to train the dogs.
They have simply learned to train the dogs like anyone would have done, using their god-given abilities.let not the scribe refuse to record as God has taught him.
Did God reveal to the scribe how to write ?
So, IMHO, all the verse I have quoted to imply ROQ should be reinterpreted having in mind the fact God sometimes attributes to himself acts done by humans.
Looking forward to your response
Peace
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And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed; And without doubt he saw him in the clear horizon. Neither doth he withhold grudgingly a knowledge of the Unseen.
Does not this verse imply that the prophet cannot have kept for himself revelations ?
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Peace be upon you Tanveer and JM,
All the guidance relevant to us is in Al-Qur'aan. Please note that all the examples of ROQ quoted by you are not relevant to us, so it was not important for those ROQ to be included in Al-Qur'aan.
Quote
And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to know who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.=> The first qibla has been given by ROQ.
First qibla not relevant to us anymore.
Everything is relevant, the first qibla given to EVERYONE is the outerworld, then we are directed WITHIN. This is not about looking at one idol and being directed towards another one(black cube).
Quote
It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.=> To approach the women during the night of fasting had been made unlawful by ROQ before the revelation of this verse
Previous law not relevant to us anymore. The new relevant law has been revealed in Al-Qur'aan.
I do not have the answer for ths one yet as the subject of SAWM is still not understood.
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And when the prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to some of his wives, then one of them spread it, and God revealed it to him, he recognized part of it and denied part. So when he informed her, she said ?Who informed you of this?? He said ?I was informed by the Knowledgeable, the Expert.?=> Muhammad has been informed by ROQ
Relevant only to Muhammad, not to us.
Every human being has the potential to recieve inspiration. There is no such thing as a book called "quran", "quran" includes all inspired truth.
Quote
And you said to the one who was blessed by God, and blessed by you ?Keep your wife and reverence God,? and you hid inside yourself what God wished to proclaim. And you feared the people, while it was God you were supposed to fear. So when Zayd ended his relationship with his wife, We had you marry her, to establish that there is no wrongdoing for the believers in marrying the wives of their adopted sons if their relationship is ended. And God's command is always done.=> God has commanded the prophet to marry her by ROQ
Relevant only to Muhammad.
It is relevant to all mankind, Truth is relevant to all. "Quran" is not the title of a book.
Same for rest.
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Peace be upon you JM,
Yes, I agree, the human is the vehicle for the God. We are the God's "hands and feet", etc.
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There is no such thing as a book called "quran", "quran" includes all inspired truth.
It is relevant to all mankind, Truth is relevant to all. "Quran" is not the title of a book.
Peace,
Could you open a new thread to explain fully why Quran would not be a book ?
Thanks
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Peace be upon you JM,
This new thread has been created.
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My friend put the following as proof as Prophet received other wahi than Quran. I could'nt anwser him, I would appreciate any reply from this forum.
Quoted below is his proof
"We know Quran is not revealed in the current order as we see it. It was revealed in different parts and they were ordered in the current order by the instruction of Prophet. Did he order it according to his own wish or did he receive any revelation from God on how to order this ? Even those who do not accept that God send other revelation than Quran, indirectly accept this revelation because they accept the current order of the Quran."
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Peace
Idolfree1, You're saying that what we know today as the "Quran" was just inspiration? I'm confused.
Was Muhammad the last messenger?
Did God tell him word for word what is in the 'Quran' today?
If not, how did he know about Abraham and Solomon and everyone?
And what would you define as 'inspiration?' -
Peace be upon you Pheonix1,
Idolfree1, You're saying that what we know today as the "Quran" was just inspiration? I'm confused.
I am saying that the truthful story(hadith) is The God's proclamation(quran). It is a message intiuited by those who reach that level of striving. A human made it there (it appears) and wrote the 114 chapters.
Was Muhammad the last messenger?
No one can prove nor disprove the exsistence of such an individual, therefore it is logical to look at "muhammad" as a description of ANYONE who follows this character of "hamd". Anyone who delivers the message is a messenger.
Did God tell him word for word what is in the 'Quran' today?
I was not a witness to how it was inspired.
If not, how did he know about Abraham and Solomon and everyone?
Abraham and solomon are descriptions, characteristics that we must learn. The same "stories" have been given in the past , with different names. In ancient times, Auset(Isis) had a virgin birth of Heru(Horus). Ausar (Osirus) was ressurected from the dead, etc. These are all metaphorical stories. The names are descrip[tions and help is tie things in.
And what would you define as 'inspiration?'
The truth intuited, not learning from outside sources, but from within. Everything we "know" in life was originally intuited by someone, there was always a first.
