GOD s revelation V Men s fabrications. Truth V Falsehood

jkhan

Peace all.

Here is the argument of traditional Islam to uphold both Qoran and "Sunnah and Hadith"

"Both Qoran and "Sunnah and Hadith" have been transmitted to us by the same people and preserved for us equally orally and in writing. To reject one is also to reject the other"

What is the proof for that from those who claim it?

I hope you refer Sunni Muslims... don't you..

So, Shia also claims the same.. so which one speaks the truth... well there is no truth anyway.. Then why Sunni rejects Shia Hadith and Shia rejects Sunni Hadiths?
laugh

Layth

Iv'e seen this attack repeated in a number of locstions - if you accept the transmission of the Quran then you accept the transmission of Hadith.

I would say, just because people record or print a work of literature, does not make them authors of that literature. It's like saying the printers of Harry Potter are now eligible to write works of fiction of the same level - complete rubish logic.

good_logic

Peace
Yet their argument can easily be refuted by their own history and of course the Qoran that they believe it is GOD s revelation. Here are the points to note do this

1-Qoran transmission has been done orally and in writing from the prophet s time. And each generation from the prophet onwards have had so many people memorise its whole contents. Not the case with their Hadith, in fact no hadith existed in a book at least up to 100 years after the prophet.

2- GOD took the responsibility of preserving Qoran and its arrangement in Surahs, GOD says so in Qoran. Not the case with Hadiths. All Traditional Muslims are in agreement and believe that Qoran- The book that the prophet passed on= is the word of GOD. They also agree that the prophet himself has not left any book of hadiths to be passed on.

3-They do not agree on Hadiths since they all sift through them and say there are sahih and weak and non sahih.
GOD tells them clearly in Qoran not to fabricate any Hadith and believe GOD and His revelation.
Hadiths are still problematic for them up to now and they are still trying to sort out the true from the false.
This is a waste of time for them and effort since Qoran tells them it is the only book accepted as a source of GOD s Deen anyway.

4-Why not follow "the best Hadith that GOD says it is Qoran and save themselves by believing GOD through His message -Qoran Alone-

End of argument. If GOD says Qoran is the best Hadith, why bother with any other Hadith?
Up to each one of them to study Qoran by themselves- Never mind the so called experts/scholars..- and see for themselves what GOD is saying in it!
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Fusion

Peace
Yet their argument can easily be refuted by their own history and of course the Qoran that they believe it is GOD s revelation. Here are the points to note do this

1-Qoran transmission has been done orally and in writing from the prophet s time. And each generation from the prophet onwards have had so many people memorise its whole contents. Not the case with their Hadith, in fact no hadith existed in a book at least up to 100 years after the prophet.
Peace.

Dear Goodlogic, Your observation about the Quran and Hadith is informative. However, it is important to also consider the role of Sunnah. The ritual prayers (Salah) practiced by Muslims globally demonstrate a remarkable consistency that transcends sectarian differences. For instance, while there are minor variations such as the practice of raising hands during prayer (raf' al-yadain) between different sects, the core elements of Salah remain largely the same across all traditional Islamic practices.

This uniformity suggests that the act of ritual prayers has been preserved not through Hadith but through the continuous, practical application of Sunnah since the Prophet's time (just like your example of Quran preservation of #1). This consistency highlights the Sunnah's role in preserving the practical interpretation of the Quranic injunctions.

Consider the following points

The Quran was revealed over a period of time or so, not in a single moment or location like tablets in a cave, but rather as a living document that the Prophet Muhammad explained and practiced with his companions.
The act of ritual prayers, fasting, and other fundamental practices of Islam have been transmitted through generations via this practical application and oral tradition, maintaining their integrity and uniformity.
Even among various sects, including Sunnis, Shias, and others, the essential structure of prayers, fasting, and other acts of worship remain largely consistent, despite minor differences.
This widespread uniformity across different Islamic traditions, even among groups like the Ahmadiyya, underscores the argument that these practices were not solely preserved through Hadith. Instead, they reflect a living Sunnah that has been consistently practiced and observed, aligning with your logic regarding the transmission of the Quran.

Moreover, the preservation of these ritual practices demonstrates the unique manner in which the interpretation of Quranic verses has been maintained. The practical aspect of Sunnah, exemplified by the Prophet and his companions, has ensured that the essential elements of worship are performed uniformly, providing a direct link to the original practices.

Therefore, while the Hadith collections are subject to critical analysis, the consistency in the execution of ritual prayers and other acts of worship across various Islamic communities points to the unique preservation of Sunnah and in case you do not agree then your #1 may also be subject to debate.

Or are you suggesting that during the Prophet's time, he and his companions were unclear about the Quranic verses and differed on the meaning of Salah, fasting, Hajj, and other fundamental practices? Just like we all talk about in this forum for past many years?
It is certain that the Prophet must have explained the Quran in detail to his followers during his lifetime, and they would have followed his guidance meticulously (remember, there was no Sahih Bukhari or other Hadith collections then but only God's verses to follow the prophet (to me that means while he was alive in day in day out).

So, after the Prophet's passing and as his companions also passed away, do you believe that nothing was preserved at all? While Hadith compilations came later, the practices of Islam were certainly preserved and passed down through generations. This ongoing preservation of practices, which to me signifies the Sunnah, ensured that the core elements of worship remained intact and were consistently observed by Muslims everywhere.

jkhan

Peace
Yet their argument can easily be refuted by their own history and of course the Qoran that they believe it is GOD s revelation. Here are the points to note do this

1-Qoran transmission has been done orally and in writing from the prophet s time. And each generation from the prophet onwards have had so many people memorise its whole contents. Not the case with their Hadith, in fact no hadith existed in a book at least up to 100 years after the prophet.

2- GOD took the responsibility of preserving Qoran and its arrangement in Surahs, GOD says so in Qoran. Not the case with Hadiths. All Traditional Muslims are in agreement and believe that Qoran- The book that the prophet passed on= is the word of GOD. They also agree that the prophet himself has not left any book of hadiths to be passed on.

3-They do not agree on Hadiths since they all sift through them and say there are sahih and weak and non sahih.
GOD tells them clearly in Qoran not to fabricate any Hadith and believe GOD and His revelation.
Hadiths are still problematic for them up to now and they are still trying to sort out the true from the false.
This is a waste of time for them and effort since Qoran tells them it is the only book accepted as a source of GOD s Deen anyway.

4-Why not follow "the best Hadith that GOD says it is Qoran and save themselves by believing GOD through His message -Qoran Alone-

End of argument. If GOD says Qoran is the best Hadith, why bother with any other Hadith?
Up to each one of them to study Qoran by themselves- Never mind the so called experts/scholars..- and see for themselves what GOD is saying in it!
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Yes...
we all know as followers of Quran what you say is right...but let me highlight their claim a bit for argument point of view.

Torah was intact while Quran was being delivered and does that mean Torah and Talmud came through the same hands, so follow Talmud as well?
Shia have their own hadith book like Sunni people's hadith books and based on what each other rejects if the claim of Quran and hadith came through the same group of people? Is it because Sunni is in the majority? lol
Where is the so-called preserved hadith book that they claim from the time of Quran revelation?
Most importantly, why there is innumerous variations in hadith statements when compared with Quran verses if both Quran and Hadith came from the same sources?
Why would Bukhari be left with a decision to omit many thousands of hadith if the Quran and hadith came from the same people and who is Bukhari to decide after a few 100 years later judge it and remove hadiths which these proudly claim hadith and Quran came from same people? if both the Quran and Hadith came from the same people there is no need to omit those hadiths and since omitted there is something wrong with those same people.
They say, take the hadiths which are identical to the Quran... how nonsensical that is.. why to take hadiths that are identical to Quran statements when you can take Quran itself? if the statements of A and B are the same, do you want to take B while A is the Author?

Anyway... these Hadith followers and those who lean to them will never reform unless and otherwise God willing.. So leave them in their astray...

The followers of Hadith has failed to comprehend verse 2285

good_logic

Dear Fusion.

Let me quote the bit from your post I want to clarify and what I understand Qoran is telling us about people and history. you say

"The act of ritual prayers, fasting, and other fundamental practices of Islam have been transmitted through generations via this practical application and oral tradition, maintaining their integrity and uniformity.
Even among various sects, including Sunnis, Shias, and others, the essential structure of prayers, fasting, and other acts of worship remain largely consistent, despite minor differences.
This widespread uniformity across different Islamic traditions, even among groups like the Ahmadiyya, underscores the argument that these practices were not solely preserved through Hadith. Instead, they reflect a living Sunnah that has been consistently practiced and observed, aligning with your logic regarding the transmission of the Quran."

Anything copied by people needs a blue print and an original/preserved source for checking it. Otherwise GOD would have sent one scripture ,preserved it and taught all the tasks for it in details and the deen would have been settled once and for all generations. This is not what happened, why?

Why did GOD renew /substitute scripture after another?

Qoran explains this to us here about the renewal of scriptures

The people used to be one community when God sent the prophets as bearers of good news, as well as warners. He sent down with them the scripture, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes. Ironically, those who received the scripture were the ones who rejected any new scripture, despite clear proofs given to them. This is due to jealousy on their part. God guides those who believe to the truth that is disputed by all others, in accordance with His will. God guides whoever wills in a straight path.*
كانَ النّاسُ أُمَّةً وٰحِدَةً فَبَعَثَ اللَّهُ النَّبِيّـۧنَ مُبَشِّرينَ وَمُنذِرينَ وَأَنزَلَ مَعَهُمُ الكِتٰبَ بِالحَقِّ لِيَحكُمَ بَينَ النّاسِ فيمَا اختَلَفوا فيهِ وَمَا اختَلَفَ فيهِ إِلَّا الَّذينَ أوتوهُ مِن بَعدِ ما جاءَتهُمُ البَيِّنٰتُ بَغيًا بَينَهُم فَهَدَى اللَّهُ الَّذينَ ءامَنوا لِمَا اختَلَفوا فيهِ مِنَ الحَقِّ بِإِذنِهِ وَاللَّهُ يَهدى مَن يَشاءُ إِلىٰ صِرٰطٍ مُستَقيمٍ

GOD s test for the humans was done in stages according to GOD s knowledge of the time and circumstances and advance in their knowledge/life experience also.

Qoran goes on to explain that Islam s Manasikh/like the Salat/ sawm/Hajj/...etc started with Abraham not Mohammed like most Muslim assume.
GOD taught Abraham and his followers the rites,then these were passed on from them first and foremost.
However GOD knew the corrupters will always play a Part

We have permitted the enemies of every prophet - human and jinn devils - to inspire in each other fancy words, in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.
وَكَذٰلِكَ جَعَلنا لِكُلِّ نَبِىٍّ عَدُوًّا شَيٰطينَ الإِنسِ وَالجِنِّ يوحى بَعضُهُم إِلىٰ بَعضٍ زُخرُفَ القَولِ غُرورًا وَلَو شاءَ رَبُّكَ ما فَعَلوهُ فَذَرهُم وَما يَفتَرونَ

GOD then will renew and correct the corruption/s to another generation according to His knowledge of when, why and where.The latest scripture was always the one to be relied on and followed.i.e it was the original latest source to be trusted.

GOD also knew when to send the last scripture and preserve it for all other generations. At first the Rabbis.priest, leaders of the deen were supposed to keep it-their scripture- intact and pass it on uncorrupted- through detail teaching /memorisations... later as parchments ...etc until the age of the press to have the proper kept books. i.e the last scripture Qoran came just when the writings were introduced more for business transactions and was improving ..

If everything maintained its originality and integrity, GOD would have not renewed it. Why would He?

Why would GOD bother to send anything new if what you say is the case brother? Why would GOD insist on "Follow what is revealed to you by your Lord only"?
Because the scripture is the blue print and the original source of checking GOD s Deen.

GOD took on the task of preserving the last scripture and made sure it has all the details of all the corrections of the corruptions , there is no need to correct what stayed intact but new things can be added as GOD sees fit for our trial.

Brother, Of course some thing the prophet did have stayed intact because they stayed intact since Abraham and there was no need to correct them. Qoran is there for checking and GOD will only hold us responsible for following Qoran according to the best of our ability/sincerity and honesty.
GOD has not asked us to follow the sunnah of Mohammed and never even mentioned any other sunnah except His own.

Why complicate things when GOD says to follow the best Hadith ,His message-Qoran- by following something from another source,another human/s?
Is this not logical and safe?
GOD does not lie or hides things from us,He says His book the Qoran is complete and His words are sufficient, true and just.
When one studies Qoran, the complete Qoran, what does it really say to them about following any other source for salvation?
It clearly says to me that the sole authority for redemption,for GOD s Deen is GOD Alone and Qoran alone. No other authority or source.
Otherwise I will be taking on a partner/s with GOD for the Deen.
GOD bless you.
Peace

jkhan

Peace Brother GL and all believers...

Brother! Why are you repeating these verses time and time and insisting on following Allah's Deen Alone? Yes... you must have a reason and not to pass the time for sure.. Yes.. believers are aware of the value of heralding Allah's messages.. The below verse must be your reason and my reason to hang around in such forums etc. to keep reminding people of Allah's verses in the best possible ways we have comprehended..

103-1-3

By the time. Indeed, mankind is at a loss, Except for those who have believed and done good deeds and advised each other with TRUTH and advised each other with PATIENCE.

How can we neglect our fellow human being who says Allah is one and try not to associate with Him anything whatsoever.. Isn't it our responsibility as the verse states? It seems like believing in Allah and doing good actions is enough but don't be selfish and think of fellow believers who may possibly go astray due to lack of reminders regularly..

26 Indeed, those who disbelieve – it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them – they WILL NOT believe.

But look at the above verse... Why warn certain people and waste our valuable time which we can utilize on believers instead of those whose destiny is fixed? There are people even in this forum as a wolf in sheep's clothing. Stop and think ... Is there any point in warning them if they prefer misguidance at the expense of guidance? So this topic should well and truly reach our fellow believers who take Allah's revelations alone and shouldn't target those who bent their necks to associate with Allah by following Deen other than Allah's

So dear fellow believers, go after believers and keep advising them with TRUTH.. to advise them with TRUTH, first know the TRUTH and be convinced until they produce the truth over your understanding of TRUTH and surrender with logic ... Because Truth is what matters to follow Allah's Deen/Direction....

Continue your journey in every possible ways while you being and doing good firmly....

hawk99

Peace all,

What we must acknowledge is that Shaytan said he would not stand by and let men and jinn walk the path without interference.

Remember this threat

said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.

Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on their left, and You will not find most of them grateful ."

So, we must identify our enemy's strategies to prevent us from knowing the truth and walking the straight path. One trick he uses is to convince us that the word of our Sustainer is not sufficient, and we must find other sources of guidance. It is a brilliant plan because Shaytan knows us and our weaknesses.
Now, because Shaytan can only have minimum effect on us by attacking Arabic and
the translations of Quran AL Kareem, he has to find other authorities outside of
Allah's complete guidance. Hence the Hadith even though the Quran says it is the only hadith hail

God bless

peace

jkhan

Peace all,

What we must acknowledge is that Shaytan said he would not stand by and let men and jinn walk the path without interference.

Remember this threat

said, "Because You have put me in error, I will surely sit in wait for them on Your straight path.

Then I will come to them from before them and from behind them and on their right and on their left, and You will not find most of them grateful ."

So, we must identify our enemy's strategies to prevent us from knowing the truth and walking the straight path. One trick he uses is to convince us that the word of our Sustainer is not sufficient, and we must find other sources of guidance. It is a brilliant plan because Shaytan knows us and our weaknesses.
Now, because Shaytan can only have minimum effect on us by attacking Arabic and
the translations of Quran AL Kareem, he has to find other authorities outside of
Allah's complete guidance. Hence the Hadith even though the Quran says it is the only hadith hail

God bless

peace

Peace..

That's well-thought-out and subject-oriented advice ....

As GL explained, Conventional Muslims who accept hadith cultures claim that Uniformity in rituals is proof for them... Uniformity can be invented on any matter ... For example, there is uniformity amongst Christians that Jesus is God and three in One, and on top of that they accept that he was crucified and this culture comes from ancient times even before the Quran was revealed.. Satan can create anything to deviate from the Straight path of Allah.. Is the straight path clear to us, and are we on the straight path, or are we also unknowingly and unwillingly detached from that straight path? Because Satan has nothing to do with destined disbelievers, Does he? As Hawk explained Satan will be an interference in our lives indeed he will be a barrier to the path of Allah which He has explained in His Deen. But those who are convinced of the Deen of Allah will not bend their necks to the deviated and fabricated Deens ... Satan will fail on that.

My dear fellow believers keep exploring the Quran and dust off your deviations from the Deen of Allah... you can do it if you beg to Allah...

good_logic

Peace jkhan.
To answer your last post and sorry if it goes slightly off topic.
Regarding our role in life, I will clarify my priority and the main message from Qoran

My priority about the message of Qoran is the basic message. The most important topic is our works and morals. Not rituals or history with all its stories even though they serve as help and lessons.

I commend all those who strive with Qoran.
However, the deviations are many and the priorities are still not right.

We have not got the basics right.
Qoran keeps repeating the "straight path"(our conduct here as humans) and calls it "Wisdom",like the wisdom of Luqman, Abraham.

Yes concentrating on the simple message of Qoran . Upholding the "straight path" -like justice, helping others, living as a unit family, being "GOD conscious" and upholding high morals(love, honesty, good thoughts,trust,...) all the qualities required /instructed by GOD( Al-Haqq) that keeps us from being destructive and fighting each other.

These are the basics that we need to highlight and preach . "Straighten up each individual so that the whole community is straight and in harmony" .This clear(no ambiguity whatsoever in it) message is the basic that will set up the agenda and aim of GOD s Deen.

For example the "Muslim" countries have millions of facilities for teaching hadiths and reciting (yes, parroting, sorry to say so) Qoran, but not one institution/facility to ponder/investigate Qoran . It is almost as they are afraid for their people to come across its treasure of knowledge.

So, why should we not turn the so called "Islam" religion upside down to restore its priority( and put as its head the most important pillars
Submission and total loyalty to GOD Alone.
Justice.
Honesty.
Trust.
Help and care.
Well being of the brothers and sisters.
Family/community health (environment,self and social)
Good works and good morals.

These must be fundamentals before any of what Muslims call worship rituals. This will turn the Deen into a "straight path".
"Kuntum Khaira Ummatin..."Applied for a few years when the prophet was alive, then Shayateen took over!!!!

We have proof of that in Qoran;" Innaka Mayitun Wa Innahum Mayitoon, Thumma Innakum Yawma Alqiyamati Takhtasimoon" i.e you will die(Prophet" and they will die(Those who took over after you-Traditional Islam-) then on the day of judgement you will "Takhtasinmoom"( Argue/disagree/be opposites). Yes the prophet will clearly be against his umma.

For me the questions discussed here are not the priority. They may even be irrelevant if we do not recognise the clear "straight path" from Qoran

Thank you brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

good_logic

Peace jkhan.
Just to clarify further what I said in my last post,What is the straight path?

There is no doubt that GOD does not require anything from us ,in fact GOD does not need or depend on anything created.
Straight path is "Ibada"/Following GOD s path.

Wa Ma Khalaktu Al Jinn Wa Al Ins Illa Liyabuduni!? The reason behind creating the Jinns and Ins is only for "YAbuduni"
This does not mean worship by doing rituals for sure.
Let us look at it from Qoran point of view
1- Wa Ani Ubuduni. Hada Siratun Mustaqueem- And "Ubudini, this is the straight path.
So if "Ubudu" Allah is the straight path, what is the straight path?
Again Qoran defines the straight path here
2-6151
Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."
قُل تَعالَوا أَتلُ ما حَرَّمَ رَبُّكُم عَلَيكُم أَلّا تُشرِكوا بِهِ شَيـًٔا وَبِالوٰلِدَينِ إِحسٰنًا وَلا تَقتُلوا أَولٰدَكُم مِن إِملٰقٍ نَحنُ نَرزُقُكُم وَإِيّاهُم وَلا تَقرَبُوا الفَوٰحِشَ ما ظَهَرَ مِنها وَما بَطَنَ وَلا تَقتُلُوا النَّفسَ الَّتى حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ إِلّا بِالحَقِّ ذٰلِكُم وَصّىٰكُم بِهِ لَعَلَّكُم تَعقِلونَ
6152
You shall not touch the orphans' money except in the most righteous manner, until they reach maturity. You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably. We do not burden any soul beyond its means. You shall be absolutely just when you bear witness, even against your relatives. You shall fulfill your covenant with God. These are His commandments to you, that you may take heed.
وَلا تَقرَبوا مالَ اليَتيمِ إِلّا بِالَّتى هِىَ أَحسَنُ حَتّىٰ يَبلُغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَأَوفُوا الكَيلَ وَالميزانَ بِالقِسطِ لا نُكَلِّفُ نَفسًا إِلّا وُسعَها وَإِذا قُلتُم فَاعدِلوا وَلَو كانَ ذا قُربىٰ وَبِعَهدِ اللَّهِ أَوفوا ذٰلِكُم وَصّىٰكُم بِهِ لَعَلَّكُم تَذَكَّرونَ
6153
This is My path - a straight one. You shall follow it, and do not follow any other paths, lest they divert you from His path. These are His commandments to you, that you may be saved.
وَأَنَّ هٰذا صِرٰطى مُستَقيمًا فَاتَّبِعوهُ وَلا تَتَّبِعُوا السُّبُلَ فَتَفَرَّقَ بِكُم عَن سَبيلِهِ ذٰلِكُم وَصّىٰكُم بِهِ لَعَلَّكُم تَتَّقونَ

So Ibada is following the straight path which are the commandments above? Is GOD asking us to do anything for Him?

Actually right at the beginning of Qoran, those who believe and want to straighten themselves are asking two things here
3-Iyaka Nabudu Wa Iyaka Nastaeen- You Alone we "Nabudu" and from you Alone we seek help.

Ibada is following GOD s path-Sirat Al Mustaqueem-

For me "Worshipping GOD" is straighten yourself by following GOD -sirat Al Mustaqueem -to live life a good human to yourself and others to earn your salvation. i.e Follow GOD s example set out for you in His message."_Ittabiu Ahsana Ma Unzila Ilaykum Min Rabbikum" FOLLOW THE BEST PATH INDICATED FOR YOU FROM YOUR LORD IN QORAN- SIRAT AL MUSTAQUEEM.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

jkhan

Yes..

Peace jkhan.
Just to clarify further what I said in my last post,What is the straight path?

There is no doubt that GOD does not require anything from us ,in fact GOD does not need or depend on anything created.
Straight path is "Ibada"/Following GOD s path.

Wa Ma Khalaktu Al Jinn Wa Al Ins Illa Liyabuduni!? The reason behind creating the Jinns and Ins is only for "YAbuduni"
This does not mean worship by doing rituals for sure.
Let us look at it from Qoran point of view
1- Wa Ani Ubuduni. Hada Siratun Mustaqueem- And "Ubudini, this is the straight path.
So if "Ubudu" Allah is the straight path, what is the straight path?
Again Qoran defines the straight path here
2-6151
Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."
قُل تَعالَوا أَتلُ ما حَرَّمَ رَبُّكُم عَلَيكُم أَلّا تُشرِكوا بِهِ شَيـًٔا وَبِالوٰلِدَينِ إِحسٰنًا وَلا تَقتُلوا أَولٰدَكُم مِن إِملٰقٍ نَحنُ نَرزُقُكُم وَإِيّاهُم وَلا تَقرَبُوا الفَوٰحِشَ ما ظَهَرَ مِنها وَما بَطَنَ وَلا تَقتُلُوا النَّفسَ الَّتى حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ إِلّا بِالحَقِّ ذٰلِكُم وَصّىٰكُم بِهِ لَعَلَّكُم تَعقِلونَ
6152
You shall not touch the orphans' money except in the most righteous manner, until they reach maturity. You shall give full weight and full measure when you trade, equitably. We do not burden any soul beyond its means. You shall be absolutely just when you bear witness, even against your relatives. You shall fulfill your covenant with God. These are His commandments to you, that you may take heed.
وَلا تَقرَبوا مالَ اليَتيمِ إِلّا بِالَّتى هِىَ أَحسَنُ حَتّىٰ يَبلُغَ أَشُدَّهُ وَأَوفُوا الكَيلَ وَالميزانَ بِالقِسطِ لا نُكَلِّفُ نَفسًا إِلّا وُسعَها وَإِذا قُلتُم فَاعدِلوا وَلَو كانَ ذا قُربىٰ وَبِعَهدِ اللَّهِ أَوفوا ذٰلِكُم وَصّىٰكُم بِهِ لَعَلَّكُم تَذَكَّرونَ
6153
This is My path - a straight one. You shall follow it, and do not follow any other paths, lest they divert you from His path. These are His commandments to you, that you may be saved.
وَأَنَّ هٰذا صِرٰطى مُستَقيمًا فَاتَّبِعوهُ وَلا تَتَّبِعُوا السُّبُلَ فَتَفَرَّقَ بِكُم عَن سَبيلِهِ ذٰلِكُم وَصّىٰكُم بِهِ لَعَلَّكُم تَتَّقونَ

So Ibada is following the straight path which are the commandments above? Is GOD asking us to do anything for Him?

Actually right at the beginning of Qoran, those who believe and want to straighten themselves are asking two things here
3-Iyaka Nabudu Wa Iyaka Nastaeen- You Alone we "Nabudu" and from you Alone we seek help.

Ibada is following GOD s path-Sirat Al Mustaqueem-

For me "Worshipping GOD" is straighten yourself by following GOD -sirat Al Mustaqueem -to live life a good human to yourself and others to earn your salvation. i.e Follow GOD s example set out for you in His message."_Ittabiu Ahsana Ma Unzila Ilaykum Min Rabbikum" FOLLOW THE BEST PATH INDICATED FOR YOU FROM YOUR LORD IN QORAN- SIRAT AL MUSTAQUEEM.

GOD bless you.
Peace.

Yes agreed... 6151 onwards are some of Allahs Straight paths...

jkhan

A chapter 109 indicates the connection between DEEN and ABD ie Serving.. When it states for you your Deen and for me my deen..Thus there are directions prople have fabricated and accordingly they serve their life... Allah's path is cleared in His Deen and that's all what a believer has to serve and not fabrications..
Thanks..

Bajram_Hoxhaj

every letter, word and verses ,the whole Qoran-

The Transmission of Variant Readings of the Qur'an
https//youtu.be/k6v3b9uPT38?si=6nZm563viQUifB3f&t=403

700 minute reciters who transmitted the Qur'an
Hafs, Warsh, and others; who is correct, and why?

Here are some examples in today's text.
285
تَعْمَلُونَ taʿmalūna | thou working (Hafs)
OR
يَعْمَلُونَ yaʿmalūna | they working (Warsh)

214
قَالَ qāla | he said (Hafs) | who said?
OR
قُلْ qul | say (Warsh)

good_logic

Peace Bajram Hoxhaj

So the prophet received 7 copies?

Wait ,some say there are ten different transmissions. One could make up their own as well if they want. Irrelevant. The one master tablet of GOD is unique and preserved no matter what people do or transmit.

Make sure you are satisfied with your copy or copies and follow the core message of Qoran that we are all accountable for..
I am satisfied that my copy contains my message and know that I will answer to GOD Alone about it.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Bajram_Hoxhaj

Peace Bajram Hoxhaj

So the prophet received 7 copies?

Salaam,

You're rude by not quoting me directly and making assumptions. There are hundreds of errors that contradict the logical context in Warsh and Hafs, which also contradict older manuscripts.

Like others on this site, you refuse to answer simple questions and divert, which is no different from hadith hearsay followers, Christian missionaries, numerologists, et al. Your minds are fixed (brainwashed).

The Qur'an didn't drop out of the sky; we have a chain of transmitters. Hafs, popular today at 95%, came via a liar who fabricated hundreds of hadith, whereas a few hundred years ago Warsh was dominant. Now we have older manuscripts and logical context to resolve issues instead of claiming they are all correct.

I posted two examples out of hundreds. Which is correct and why?

Fusion

I would like to ask for a simple clarification.

The differences among the various Qira'at include variations in pronunciation, dialect, and sometimes slight differences in wording and vowelization. These variations do not change the overall meaning of the Quran.

Is the above statement true or not?

For me these variations highlight the meticulous preservation and rich oral tradition of the Quran.

Now Bajram says in his last post that Hafs ibn Sulayman was a lair and fabricated many hadiths? As far as I know he does not have a significant presence in the major hadith collections or the famous hadith books that we know of today? He is not known as a prominent hadith narrator, and his reputation among hadith scholars is not particularly strong. In fact, there are critical views about him in the context of hadith transmission. Some hadith scholars have questioned his reliability as a narrator of hadith.
So Hafs ibn Sulayman is primarily known for his role in the transmission of the Quranic recitation rather than for narrating hadiths. His fame and expertise lie in his contribution to the science of Quranic recitation (Tajweed and Qira'at), particularly through his transmission from Aasim ibn Abi al-Najud (His teacher).

I can only conclude that While Hafs ibn Sulayman's reputation in hadith transmission may be questioned, his expertise and reliability in Quranic recitation are well-established and widely accepted. Unless we question his Quran reciation solely because he was a bad in Hadith transmission... I think this is not justified.
The multiple Qira'at are a testament to the Quran's linguistic richness and divine preservation rather than evidence of its corruption. The core message of the Quran remains unchanged and universally accepted by the Muslim community, supported by historical, linguistic, and scholarly evidence.

good_logic

Peace Bajram Hoxhaj.

Qoran in all its stages has been part of a bigger plan that will culminate in the unveiling of the mathematical composition of the Qoran.
This confirmed that all the stages were totally under control of God Almighty. The mathematical miracle will be with us to the end of time and will be an effective tool in distinguishing a correctly written Qoran from one with human errors and will make it possible to have a one standardized edition of the Qoran.

This means whatever change the people would do to the revealed Qoran, whether done deliberately or not will be exposed and corrected as the original is preserved with God. God, being the Most Merciful , also provided us with a method and a proof to verify the accuracy of the Qoran..

Unlike the claims made by many Muslim scholars, the Mus-hafs that exist today and around the world are not the same as many of them still carry the human errors that were not corrected.
They do not match word by word or letter by letter and they are not what God promised to preserve and protect.

The only fool proof copy and accurate one for those who think the old Mushafs have no errors would be to find the original copy written by the prophet and compare..
I am saying brother that the prophet has left one version. The Hafs version of today comes very close to it according to the mathematical composition.
Obviously, from my conversations with you in the past, we differ in our view on this.
Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Bajram_Hoxhaj

I would like to ask for a simple clarification.

The differences among the various Qira'at include variations in pronunciation, dialect, and sometimes slight differences in wording and vowelization. These variations do not change the overall meaning of the Quran.

Is the above statement true or not?

Salaam,

Some are minor, others are major. See the video posted earlier on the chain of transmitters. You can't have seven or more permutations of 1,000 words, as they don't make sense in context, contradict basic language rules, or show inconsistencies (e.g., lost/won the Romans, wipes/wash the feet, missing words, etc.), and claim all are correct because it was revealed that way.

Study videos by
Dr. Hythem Sidky
Dr. Marijn van Putten
Oxford Scholar Dr. Joshua Little
Professor Shady Nasser of Harvard University
Professor Gabriel Said Reynolds of the University of Notre Dame
https//www.youtube.com/@ExploringtheQuranandtheBible

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hrcd6K0RDM

Salaam again good logic,

You follow Qur'an according to Hafs, which has errors, e.g.
214 قَالَ (qāla, he said) -- again who is speaking? Who is "he"?

You harp on hadith and too proud to admit you don't know?
285 تَعْمَلُونَ (taʿmalūna, thou? working in Hafs) 286 those the ones...

jkhan

The Transmission of Variant Readings of the Qur'an
https//youtu.be/k6v3b9uPT38?si=6nZm563viQUifB3f&t=403

700 minute reciters who transmitted the Qur'an
Hafs, Warsh, and others; who is correct, and why?

Here are some examples in today's text.
285
تَعْمَلُونَ taʿmalūna | thou working (Hafs)
OR
يَعْمَلُونَ yaʿmalūna | they working (Warsh)

214
قَالَ qāla | he said (Hafs) | who said?
OR
قُلْ qul | say (Warsh)

I have brought few verses which are translations of Sahih international, since the topic is about not meaning but mistakes in Quran..
It is very easy to identify with the flow of the verses and the context whether verse states THEY or YOU.. decide yourself..

285 Then, you are those killing one another and evicting a party of your people from their homes, cooperating against them in sin and aggression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their eviction was forbidden to you. So do you believe in part of the Scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the Day of Resurrection they will be sent back to the severest of punishment. And not Allah aware of what you/they do.

286 Those are the ones who have bought the life of this world for the Hereafter, so the punishment will not be lightened for them, nor will they be aided.

2144 Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And not Allah aware of what they do.
2141 That is a nation which has passed on. It will have what it earned, and you will have what you have earned. And you will not be asked about what they used to do.

Read 285 to 286 and figure out what exactly Allah has spoken like you can figure out 2141 and 2144 etc...

The letter ‘THA’ and the letter ‘YA’ are just a matter of two dots up or down or missing totally…but the letter will look the same… All you have to do is read verses and get it right..

Same with words QUL or QALA.. anyone can write them just with a little space or almost joined, so it would look either QUL or QALA but look for meaning…
But in 2114 it is neither QUL nor QALA but it is QALU (They said),,,,, read the verse “They said, "O woe to us! Indeed, we were wrongdoers.” How can this verse would start with QUL and QALA while it states ‘woe to US’ and it further states ‘WE were wrongdoers’

same with 214 He said, "My Lord knows whatever is said throughout the heaven and earth, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing."

So how can this verse be QALA instead of QUL... because it is stated 'MY Lord knows' even though it seems like the messenger is speaking on his own but in the literal sense the verse is from Allah and asking to SAY / QUL 'MY LORD KNOWS'.. get things right with logic..

Just read the Quran which is in your hand and look for the Guidance of Allah and there will be nothing between you and the guidance of Allah.. No point in wasting time on which Quran to choose and it is better to look for guidance from Allah with the Quran you have.. Not advice to you specifically but for all including me..

thank you