GOD s revelation V Men s fabrications. Truth V Falsehood
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Peace jkhan.
For me kALA IS the statement which came from the rasool answering from his own knowledge of the message- GOD s trait .i.e indirectly from GOD.
KUL, the statement comes directly from GOD. What to say exactly.GOD bless you.
Peace.Brother GL Peace..
It's okay and it is in the Quran what you read and what most read.. But question for both of you GL and BH, is there any such verse in the Quran where Messenger SAID/QALA is placed without messenger being a word in the verse? So we can somewhat deduce..
I am not against your view GL btw.. but for whatever reason, I strongly feel that QUL would suit.. And I can't just deduce while it is written in Quran QALA but it is the assumption that HAFS version is right by majority.. because of this reason I researched a bit to know about HAFS and WARSH and it is very strange very minute differences in both ... And WARSH is a minority ..
below are some differences pointed out by some Christians but it is the truth..
https//www.ugr.es/~mreligio/materiales/Green.Samuel_The-different-arabic-versions-of-the-Quran.pdf
After seeing these variations, tbh my mind says that whatever written in WARSH version seems right for me.. just my personal opinion by reading the flow of verses.. But the truth of Allah's revelation remains truth..
I know Brother GL that QUL and QALU have some symmetry and you consider it highly but who knows one QUL verse could be QALA somewhere ....
This SAY and THEY SAID have a connection.. Allah REPLIED to those WHO SAID QALU by QUL / SAY and not by QALA / HE SAID.. so I strongly believe that in verse 214 it is QUL and not QALA...
But GL. remain in your stance until you get convinced and Allah's guidance reaches you with clarity ... and anyway, these won't make any difference to anyone's faith unless they think the Quran has flaws..
Just reflect and research and seek guidance from Allah to reach what exactly was revealed to Prophet Mohamed...No flaws in what was revealed to him though we have many different versions after years elapsed..
But both HAFS and WARSH cannot be right but only one can be right..
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Peace jkhan.
For me, Kala fits the interlock of the complete Qoran- Three letters- Kul will make the count 1 letter short.
In my view ,The letters fit the mathematical frame exactly and Kala fits whether the only time one finds it in Qoran is irrelevant.
For example one can argue in surah Q-Qaf- the word "Ikhwanu Lut" was used where the rest of Qoran uses "Qawmu lut- .
It does not mean it is an error. That is our own reasoning that creates complications/errors sometimes.
But,of course this is my own view and others are entitled to theirs. What matters is we keep learning studying with an open mind.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace jkhan.
For me, Kala fits the interlock of the complete Qoran- Three letters- Kul will make the count 1 letter short.
In my view ,The letters fit the mathematical frame exactly and Kala fits whether the only time one finds it in Qoran is irrelevant.
For example one can argue in surah Q-Qaf- the word "Ikhwanu Lut" was used where the rest of Qoran uses "Qawmu lut- .
It does not mean it is an error. That is our own reasoning that creates complications/errors sometimes.
But,of course this is my own view and others are entitled to theirs. What matters is we keep learning studying with an open mind.
GOD bless you.
Peace.Peace GL...
I don't want to stress you on this subject.. After all it is no-one's fault because that's the Quran which is available Hafs or Warsh mainly.. Whoever chooses whatever the version it's not a big deal.. let's end it..But I am unclear on your first para.. Kala fits the interlock of the complete Qoran- Three letters- Kul will make the count 1 letter short.
Can you explain what it is pls.. I am afraid that I am not getting it..thank you..
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Peace jkhan.
The count of all the letters from the first letter " B" of verse 1 -بِسمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحمٰنِ الرَّحيمِ- to the last letter "S" of verse -مِنَ الجِنَّةِ وَالنّاس-.with the order of the Surahs as is the current arrangement fits code 19.
Yes, like you said, the main task is to follow the message- by doing/living it- that is in whichever version one uses.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
Salaam,
Some are minor, others are major. See the video posted earlier on the chain of transmitters. You can't have seven or more permutations of 1,000 words, as they don't make sense in context, contradict basic language rules, or show inconsistencies (e.g., lost/won the Romans, wipes/wash the feet, missing words, etc.), and claim all are correct because it was revealed that way.
Do we have a refernce artifact compiled that actually shows all of the differences (the major ones as you mentioned there are) to be able to know if those actually changed the understanding of the underlying verses to an extent that merely is no more to be overlooked? I understand the minor changes examples quoted in this thread for example Qul or Qaal or yalamoon but to me these are not changing the intent of the verse.
It would be nice to have all those major changes compiled and listed.thank you
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Peace all.
Here is the argument of traditional Islam to uphold both Qoran and "Sunnah and Hadith"
"Both Qoran and "Sunnah and Hadith" have been transmitted to us by the same people and preserved for us equally orally and in writing. To reject one is also to reject the other"
Salam
There's an easier way to disprove that arguement We have the names of the Quran transmitters and they are not the same people as the hadith transmitters. Their names are mentioned in the books by al-Dani, ibn Mujahid, ibn al-Jazari and others.
In fact, some transmitters were weak in hadith but were accepted as a Quran's transmitter, like Abu Abd al-Rahman al-Sulami who was part of Hafs isnad. That would make the Hafs recitation inauthentic according to them and all the Quran's in his isnad today. A weak Quran is the most popular Quran today? Is it a coincidence?
About the verses
- They were clearly isolated and not making a general statement to everyone.
- The Prophet was living and interacting with them and exposing them.
And to counter your conclusion, they can say the Quran tells people to go beyond its verses. They aren't rejecting the Quran, they're following it.
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Peace Euphoric.
Thanks for your take. Let me quote you"In fact, some transmitters were weak in hadith but were accepted as a Quran's transmitter, like Abu Abd al-Rahman al-Sulami who was part of Hafs isnad. That would make the Hafs recitation inauthentic according to them and all the Quran's in his isnad today. A weak Quran is the most popular Quran today? Is it a coincidence?"
You mean there was no Hadith to transmit when Qoran started . In fact there was no Hadith up to at least the last Khalifa.
They must have all been "weak" in transmitting Hadith in this case , actually they were transmitting Zero Hadith. Yet they were transmitting Qoran. In that case disregard their Qoran also.After that , the Qoran was already in the form of a book, The transmission was completed actually by the prophet. All the verses were already written down by him and under his instructions, collected into a book after his death.
Or did the prophet leave a collection of writings called hadith for us from himself to be passed on? i.e authored by him.
Besides,is Qoran not enough since GOD calls it the best Hadith? Then why would anyone want another hadith if they have the best hadith available to them?
But people still keep insisting to follow other hadiths and questioning the value and sole authority of Qoran
Are you questioning this Hadith ?
أَفَمِن هٰذَا الحَديثِ تَعجَبونَ
Are you laughing, instead of crying?
وَتَضحَكونَ وَلا تَبكونَ
Are you insisting on your ways?
وَأَنتُم سٰمِدونَWe have to question men s Hadiths. Because GOD said in Qoran that He has not authorised or given any partnership for others to write hadith for His religion?
And He confirmed for us that His words are complete in truth and justice and that He completed His religion with Qoran Alone for the prophet and the believers,. That is what was supposed to be passed on to those after him.. No more ,no less.
And for sure I will not dare question GOD and His best hadith.
So each to their hadith/s .
GOD bless you.
Peace -
But question for both of you GL and BH, is there any such verse in the Quran where Messenger SAID/QALA is placed without messenger being a word in the verse? So we can somewhat deduce..
At the time of revelation in the context of 241-7, there was only one messenger. The Quran always uses 'say,' never 'he said,' and the person speaking is always identified.
But both HAFS and WARSH cannot be right but only one can be right..
Then there are others each with chains of narrations to today.
Warsh 90% majority only few hundred years ago Hafs in minority.It would be nice to have all those major changes compiled and listed.
See this site along with videos https//erquran.org/
Encyclopedia of the readings of the Qur’anhttps//erquran.org/pages/encyclopedia/readings
Variant Types (1)
https//youtu.be/-g-l7Mt7O0kVariant Types (2)
https//youtu.be/66g3ae5iancNumerous spelling variations (thousands with vowels), with some words different, added or missing. Additionally, there are those who claim verses were abrogated, or numerologists who remove verses and count letters, such as Qaf totaling 7034, etc. In any letter in any book, the expected multiples are approximately 1/19, e.g., chapters and #Qaf.
14 - 57
26 - 133
32 - 38
42 - 57
47 - 38
50 - 57
61 - 19Likewise, in the earliest or oldest manuscripts, all 29 initials were together with the next verse, and 20 of 29 were broken out as separate verses hundreds of years later, e.g.
501 Qāf Wa Al-Qur'āni Al-Majīdi (Estimated date 1204)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/1966/page/14r?sura=50&verse=1https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/32/page/42v?sura=50&verse=1
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/59/page/184r?sura=50&verse=1
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At the time of revelation in the context of 241-7, there was only one messenger. The Quran always uses 'say,' never 'he said,' and the person speaking is always identified.
Then there are others each with chains of narrations to today.
Warsh 90% majority only few hundred years ago Hafs in minority.See this site along with videos https//erquran.org/
Encyclopedia of the readings of the Qur’anhttps//erquran.org/pages/encyclopedia/readings
Variant Types (1)
https//youtu.be/-g-l7Mt7O0kVariant Types (2)
https//youtu.be/66g3ae5iancNumerous spelling variations (thousands with vowels), with some words replaced, added or missing. Additionally, there are those who claim verses were abrogated, or numerologists who remove verses and count letters, such as Qaf totaling 7034, etc. In any common letter in any book or news article, the expected multiples are approximately 1/19, e.g., chapters and #Qaf.
14 - 57
26 - 133
32 - 38
42 - 57
47 - 38
50 - 57
61 - 19Likewise, in the earliest or oldest manuscripts, all 29 initials were together with the next verse, and 20 of 29 were broken out as separate verses hundreds of years later, e.g.
501 Qāf Wa Al-Qur'āni Al-Majīdi (Estimated date 1204)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/1966/page/14r?sura=50&verse=1https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/32/page/42v?sura=50&verse=1
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/59/page/184r?sura=50&verse=1
Hello Bajram,
Maybe I have missed the point of your discussion. Are you suggesting that the Quran we have today is not exactly the same as what was revealed to the Prophet to what %?, and that there are errors in its compilation, including minor and major changes in wording? This is what I can deduce so far from your replies.Beyond this, what are you trying to convey? Please summarize the key takeaways from your research. Do you believe in any part of the existing Quran, and if so, to what extent do you consider it to be correct? Also, could you share your own beliefs regarding the Quran and its authenticity?
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Hello Bajram,
Maybe I have missed the point of your discussion. Are you suggesting that the Quran we have today is not exactly the same as what was revealed to the Prophet to what %?, and that there are errors in its compilation, including minor and major changes in wording? This is what I can deduce so far from your replies.Beyond this, what are you trying to convey? Please summarize the key takeaways from your research. Do you believe in any part of the existing Quran, and if so, to what extent do you consider it to be correct? Also, could you share your own beliefs regarding the Quran and its authenticity?
It's about 99% as revealed; the rest needs to be investigated via context, etc., for example, 214 'Qul/Say'.
Salaam
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Salam
I hope I understood you correctly...Does something need to be written down or be in a book form to be considered true, or even possible?
The Quran being written down comes from hadiths. There's no original Prophetic Quran that we have today and can be proven to be from him. All the information we have are hearsay and faith based.
What I was saying about transmitters of the Quran is that they were rejected in hadith transmission. The famous reading of today is of Hafs, read by the majority. Hafs and his teacher Asim were both rejected in hadith transmission, this means if we used hadith science as criteria, then the Quran majority read today should be rejected or at least considered unreliable as it came from Hafs through his teacher Asim.
Btw, hadith transmission existed as did the Quran transmission. The earliest hadith collection we have is around 50 years after the Prophet's death https//www.islamic-awareness.org/hadith/hadith , that disproves the claim hadiths were written down 200 years after. But we have Muwatta of Malik which dates back less than 200 years from the death of the Prophet https//www.islamic-awareness.org/hadith/perf731.
Either way the claim of hadiths coming 200 years after the prophet and not being written has been disproven.
GOD bless you.
Peace -
It does not matter about the past, hadiths, history or whatever has been said or done.
We now have Qoran, claimed by all Muslims to be authored/given by GOD . We can check any version/all the versions out and study,analyse/ponder...the contents. What does it say?
We also have Hadiths and other religious books, clearly from human authors,one can also do the same with what is available today if they choose to.
What is obvious is Qoran must take precedence and prioritise to be checked first,because it is claimed to be from GOD by the majority who follow Islam.
I am saying to you, if you believe like all Muslims do , GOD takes priority over the humans and we need to check Qoran s contents first.
This task gives the following clearly and forcefully
GOD is the sole authority for His deen.
Qoran is complete and is the truth and does not need any human additions.
It is the best Hadith.
GOD does not need any partners to complete His deen.
Qoran alone is sufficient and GOD is the explainer and does the guidance.
We are strongly instructed to follow only what GOD has revealed in this Qoran,
To remind and preach with only Qoran.
...and many more clear advice to follow GOD Alone and His words that are complete in truth and justice.It is a no brainer, if one believes, to obey GOD and follow His message.
One does not even need to check any other Hadith because one does not need any other human source or authority to partner GOD.
Who can possibly argue with this ,except those who do not believe in GOD or that GOD has sent a book or Qoran is from GOD?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
At the time of revelation in the context of 241-7, there was only one messenger. The Quran always uses 'say,' never 'he said,' and the person speaking is always identified.
Then there are others each with chains of narrations to today.
Warsh 90% majority only few hundred years ago Hafs in minority.See this site along with videos https//erquran.org/
Encyclopedia of the readings of the Qur’anhttps//erquran.org/pages/encyclopedia/readings
Variant Types (1)
https//youtu.be/-g-l7Mt7O0kVariant Types (2)
https//youtu.be/66g3ae5iancNumerous spelling variations (thousands with vowels), with some words different, added or missing. Additionally, there are those who claim verses were abrogated, or numerologists who remove verses and count letters, such as Qaf totaling 7034, etc. In any letter in any book, the expected multiples are approximately 1/19, e.g., chapters and #Qaf.
14 - 57
26 - 133
32 - 38
42 - 57
47 - 38
50 - 57
61 - 19Likewise, in the earliest or oldest manuscripts, all 29 initials were together with the next verse, and 20 of 29 were broken out as separate verses hundreds of years later, e.g.
501 Qāf Wa Al-Qur'āni Al-Majīdi (Estimated date 1204)
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/1966/page/14r?sura=50&verse=1https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/32/page/42v?sura=50&verse=1
https//corpuscoranicum.de/en/manuscripts/59/page/184r?sura=50&verse=1
Thanks for answering my main question... Any way Message of Allah is for those who believe and they would reach to God's messages aptly..
It's like.. there are a lot of signs in nature and believers will perceive them but it doesn't mean there is something missing in nature's signs... The one who cannot perceive what nature has to offer as signs would definitely mess with Allah's revealed book..
Anyway keep researching if you all think the Deity of anyone is there and we are to return to Him.. If we are to return to Him then be prepared before meeting Him.. and to be prepared look for truth...
btw if the book of Quran seems just another ancient faltered book then move on.. No one is captivating anyone to hold fast to it.. one can say nature is on it's own and no hands behind it so one can say there is no God's communication but all human touch..Keep researching fellow believers..
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Peace Euphoric.
You say, quote
Btw, hadith transmission existed as did the Quran transmission. The earliest hadith collection we have is around 50 years after the Prophet's death https//www.islamic-awareness.org/hadith/hadith , that disproves the claim hadiths were written down 200 years after. But we have Muwatta of Malik which dates back less than 200 years from the death of the Prophet"
Does this mean the prophet and the believers during his time and those who came up to 50 years after him had no Hadiths?
The prophet , according to the Muslims history has not passed down any Hadith or written parchments of Hadiths to be passed on, yet he did pass on Qoran both orally and written down in parchments.This also means Qoran existed on its own up to that time.
Does this not mean also that whether it was 50 years or 200 years after the prophet s death,the argument is the same? i.e there was no hadiths collection/books during that period and that Qoran alone was being followed.
Your post does not change anything or give any evidence that Hadiths are to be followed. In fact it is reiterating the same false premise that Hadiths have been legitimate since the prophet and their transmission can be trusted like the Qoran.I am amazed at the reasoning of the majority of traditional Muslims. They preach Islam using Qoran as a bait and tell you to use your faculties/reasoning and check its verses out because GOD authored it, yet at the same time they want you to stop using your faculties/reasoning and just accept Hadiths with it even if Qoran tells you otherwise!
In fact it goes deeper than that ,they tell you How do you know it is from GOD if you do not follow hadith as both had the same transmission?
Now you are supposed to prove to them that Qoran is from GOD because you do not believe in Hadith!
Double dutch to me this weird reasoning. Just don t believe Qoran then since you are the one telling me it is from GOD..
Actually many do not believe Qoran since they follow many laws and habits that contradict it in hadiths..
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
In Quran, it itself refers Quran or Kitab, in many verses, but we totally think Quran as the book with X surahs with verses as whole and searching for some miracle 19s etc... but I think the Quran or Kitab it refers only the unchangeable laws set forth by God or what we see from the system. Where we learn(read) to get guidance, it needs to be the laws or rules that are written onto the system, not the book, the christians called as people of the book while many modern muslims also become the people of the book in many ways. We have people reading it in memory, but have we understood the message correctly? Even how hard we hide the truth or the real kitab of what is right and wrong will be repeatedly coming up from the great blessed people.
I think Holy book, the holy Prophet, Holy place etc are all coming from the community or religion, I feel nothing are holy except him and thats the concept of Masjid al Haram, a practice to understand God when we keep us away from worldly things, only God comes from one's individual heart, He does not belong to any one specific religion, culture or sect. He is common for all, thats the goodnews that so many people of different religions preaches and that Quran also teaches.
